Would anyone like a sensible discussion about low pay?
- Thread starter UKSBD
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They risk their lives? Sorry, that doesn’t make sense (asbestos removal is highly regulated now).
Are they out of control of themselves?
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What, all of them? How does that work?
PS we’ve never had more than five employees at any one time, but over the years probably 20 odd.
I can honestly say, I’ve never controlled anyone apart from myself.
What a strange outlook. Ah well, each to their own!
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They don't know week to week how many hours, or which hours they will be required to work. That means they cannot plan to do anything in their lives as they do not know if they will be working at the relevant time. Or how much they will earn. To be clear I am not talking about @simon field fewer than 10 employees. I am talking about the tens of thousands working for large retail employers.
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Most shareholders aren't making investments either. They've bought the shares after issue, so the company isn't benefitting from their money.
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T
The Byre
That is a very important point! If there is a counter-party and someone had to sell those shares for you to buy them, then they are betting that the price will fall and you are betting that the price will rise. i.e. gambling.
That would be my definition of a bad employer and a bad company.
Let's face economic facts - people cannot live on £20k because the markets and the economy are inequitably structured. They are forced into debts and other obligations like rental agreements because they are denied access to assets and because debt has become socially acceptable - even desirable.
A massive component of those inequitable structures is inflation caused by governments printing money so that they can buy votes.
Aided and abetted by their appointees at the central banks, they create surplus money that causes inflation and therefore reduces the purchasing power of that £20k to the absurd point where what used to be a decent wage now requires topping up by the very government that is causing their problems in the first place.
Our middle-class family on a higher net salary of, say £40k may soon find that they are facing a 7% mortgage and their payments jump from £1k to £2k a month (ballpark). Now they have just £16k p.a. for everything else. Add a few other payments and they are on the bread-line in no time!
When you combine inflation with debts and other obligations, you rot away the very core of the economy and society. Inflation transfers wealth from the asset-poor (i.e. those in debt) to the asset-rich (banks, landlords, leasing companies, etc.)
It is a downward spiral into a dark abyss that can only be halted by having sound money.
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It doesn't help that the poorest in our society are charged more for everything.
Struggling to pay your gas bill? You get put on a pre-payment meter, which is more expensive than a credit meter. Can't pay by direct debit? Then you don't get the direct debit discount. Struggling with repayments? Get hit with penalty charges that sink you even further into debt (local governments, I'm looking at you).
And someone please explain to me why fresh food is more expensive than processed food? Surely there's a cost to processing food which fresh food doesn't incur.
Struggling to pay your gas bill? You get put on a pre-payment meter, which is more expensive than a credit meter. Can't pay by direct debit? Then you don't get the direct debit discount. Struggling with repayments? Get hit with penalty charges that sink you even further into debt (local governments, I'm looking at you).
And someone please explain to me why fresh food is more expensive than processed food? Surely there's a cost to processing food which fresh food doesn't incur.
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Processed food is mainly done by machines which is more efficient than what is involved in growing fresh food.
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The True Costs of Processed Foods: Your Health, Your Planet - Escoffier
Processed foods are convenient and cheap, but they may be worse for you—and the environment—than you think. Learn how chefs are ditching processed foods.
www.escoffier.edu
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Unfortunately, all of those things cost companies more, and someone has to pay. The costs could be shared among all customers, but they'd still be there.
If a customer asks you for something that costs you more, do you pass the costs on to them?
Is processed food cheaper? Or just easier?
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for many they are forced now by choices made by them/family in times past.
They have no option when living hand to mouth to gain the skills/location/transport to get a better job, they just can't afford the investment (in time or money)
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In retail, if a customer asks to pay by card rather than cash, it is illegal to pass the additional costs on to them. The additional costs are shared between all customers.
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Yes, but it doesn't make sense to impose them on customers who are already struggling to pay. It's just further reducing their ability to pay.
At the moment, fresh food inflation is running higher than processed foods. Price-wise, fresh food seems more expensive, depending on where you buy it. Vegetables, less so but meat, dairy and fish are, compared to the price of some economy ready meals (for example). Fish seems to be a particularly bad culprit, although I admittedly haven't been to a proper fishmongers in ages.
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T
The Byre
It isn't.
Most processed food is made of cheap things like flour, sugar and water. Fish cakes are liquidised fish rests such as heads and bones and slops, combined with flour and salt and other taste enhancers. Ketchup is made from tomato powder, acetic acid, paprika powder, salt, sugar, flour, a few other taste enhancers and lots of water. Things like tomatoes, beans, potatoes, flour, etc. are very cheap in bulk and can be combined with other cheap components to create the illusion of the customer getting more for less.
The processed food industry does not have handling costs and packaging costs that a retail supply chain incurs when selling fresh food. It also does not suffer from as much spoilage, as products do not sit on shelves for days.
Despite that, fresh food and vegetables in particular are still cheaper than tins or packages of the same. A tin of sauerkraut sells for 99p or more. A cabbage that will make three tins of sauerkraut with a little salt, acetic acid and sugar sells for 60p.
£1.89 for a 400g tin of stew - so I would need two to fill my stomach - £3.78 for a meal. A large cabbage 60p, 700g steak £6, 700g pork £3.39, three large onions 49p, celery 89p, 1kg carrots 55p, plus 10p for oil and other trace things and I have spent £12 for about six meals of stew. £22.68 if that lot came out of a tin - and I know which one will taste better!
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I'm not convinced that, for example, pre-pay gas costs more to supply than credit gas. You'll know more about that than I do, but given that a smart meter can be topped up online, I don't see why it should cost more.
As to late payment penalties, I don't believe they're proportionate to the costs, but even if they are, share them out. After all, in online retail, you factor in the cost of returns and whatnot into your price. You don't charge more depending on whether the person has a poor credit rating or not.
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I want to know where you buy your steak from. I paid over £26/kg at my local butchers (admittedly, sirloin, but rump was £20/kg).
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T
The Byre
Lidl and Aldi. If they don't have it, I don't buy it. For a stew Lidl is good enough, but Aldi meat tends to be better and Morrison has the best meat of the large supermarket chains - but one should not buy anything else there as it is too expensive without being any better.
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Prepay meters cost money and having a prepayment system/card costs money. Ofgem (the government) sets the costs.
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"The 26 million customers protected by the price cap includes around 4 million prepayment meter customers. These customers pay an additional £80 compared to those on direct debit, which also reflects the higher cost for energy companies to serve them. "
Latest energy price cap announced by Ofgem
Today (Thursday 24 November 2022) Ofgem announced its quarterly update to the energy price cap for the period 1 January – 31 March 2023.
The cost to the customer for being on prepayment is £80 per year. £1.53 per week.
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Price CAP"The 26 million customers protected by the price cap includes around 4 million prepayment meter customers. These customers pay an additional £80 compared to those on direct debit, which also reflects the higher cost for energy companies to serve them. "
Latest energy price cap announced by Ofgem
Today (Thursday 24 November 2022) Ofgem announced its quarterly update to the energy price cap for the period 1 January – 31 March 2023.www.ofgem.gov.uk
The cost to the customer for being on prepayment is £80 per year. £1.53 per week.
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Correct. The price cap is currently the only available tariff for almost all suppliers and the tariff that all or close to all prepayment meters are on.
So what is your point?
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And any retailer can refuse any form of payment. Ever paid Amazon in cash?
Cash payments cost money too, depositing cash in the bank can cost up to about 0.7%
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I don't understand why. The most modern pre-payment meter is the same physical smart meter as post-pay and you don't even need a card with that. You just top it up online.
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This is a great thread - a really interesting read however, I think that you need to look at a wider picture. You can't look at UC/low wages without considering the impact on workers of Landlord Benefit. Housing costs are just ridiculous for most people who are renting.
You also need to ask yourself why every solution to the economic problems is giving rich people more money. You would be better off pumping the money in at the "bottom" of society as it always reaches the "top" eventually. Trickle down doesn't work, trickle up does.
You also need to ask yourself why every solution to the economic problems is giving rich people more money. You would be better off pumping the money in at the "bottom" of society as it always reaches the "top" eventually. Trickle down doesn't work, trickle up does.
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It only affects them if they're seeking shareholder investment. *Someone* will own the shares regardless.
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Ok, thanks for clarifying.
But it cuts both ways. If a company doesn’t know from week to week what hours they can offer their employees, then it just becomes a juggling act. Usually, you’ll find that the busier a company can keep its employees, then the more the turnover increases.
With increased turnover, usually - but not always - comes greater profit, prosperity and longevity.
So, to sum up, the better a company does, the better its employees do - if they like working for that company they can keep doing so.
There are a lot of companies to chose from, and even more employees. Is there anything wrong, actually?
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The trouble is, for most large companies employing at low wages, more turnover just means more people required at minimum wage to fulfil that. We have thousands of companies just about standing still, selling tat that we don't need, to people who currently feel rich based upon the valuation of their houses.
I'd be interested to know how John Lewis renumeration stacks up against similar competitors without the mutual element.
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Is it more expensive?
I have just looked for beef burgers...
8 iceland burgers (454g) are £3.50 (on a google search, it was the closest in weight to a pack of mince)
500g mince is around £2 (£1.80-£2.50).
The burgers are also bulked up with around 20% of flour/salt/onions/water etc.
So ballpark, I could have 10 burgers for around half the price.
When I went self employed in 2013 I was skint, I generally found it cheaper to buy fresh and make it myself. Bang it all in a slow cooker and you could even make 2-3 days worth of food in one go to save on the cost of cooking and either have it the next day or bang it in the freezer and ding it.
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The employer simply makes an offer of employment - nobody is forcing anyone to do anything. The employer has to try their to keep their business going.
The employee swaps their time and skills for money. Obviously, a decent employer will award pay rises & bonuses to decent employees. Sometimes, the employer might not be able to sell enough things to make profits, but the employee wants their money regardless.
Plenty of better paying jobs out there for anyone who wants to better themselves. Hey - they could even start their own business if they fancy having a go!
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