White Hat SEO Is Dead!

[adventurelife]

So where do all these clients fit on page one exactly - there's only 10 spots available.

But an SEO would have to make the promise to get every client on page one for No1 ranking. How is that possible - there's no room at the inn!

If you got me to No1, that will knock someone down to No2 spot for the same keyword - it must do. So what happens to the No2 guy who paid £1000 for his No1 spot?

Suggest a different keyword to him? But he doesn't want that, he wants to rank for the same word - and so will everyone else in that industry!

Hence why the SEO's will always have more business than they can handle. It is called the market.

 

[MASSEY]

From an SEO's point of view, <<<Abusive language removed>>>

Unless of course, the person was willing to pay thousands extra.

Well that's a terrible attitude to have. Remind everyone in the forum never to use you.

 

[-Joe-]

Well that's a terrible attitude to have. Remind everyone in the forum never to use you.

What? So I'm supposed to refuse customers because I've dealt with another person in their industry in the past? Should I jack my prices right up, to accomodate?

Should it be the same with web design?

There's only so many niches, you can't guarantee exclusivity. (Unless the price is enough to justify it); I mean, sure, I'd be willing to raise prices for the customer at slightly below the money I could earn in the future, in the name of good customer relations, but I doubt most people would be willing to pay the extra money.

Why should I refuse business, in the name of honour, just for the potential business to go to another SEO agency, who'll do the exact same thing? (at a higher price)

May I ask what business you're in?

 

[Tin]

If you get that, I'll eat my keyboard.

Would you like ketchup with that!!

It's our policy to only ever work with one client in any given sector. Our feeling is that it would be unethical to take payment (large or small) from one client who expects us to do our best in his business interests and then simply take money from another client targeting exactly the same keywords who happens to have deeper pockets.

We reached a tipping point over 5 years ago, we never advertise as new client work comes in on recommendations and are regularly booked 3-4 months ahead at any one time.

We take the view that we aren't out to conquer the world and that the world is big enough to accommodate plenty of seo companies who can deliver and to be honest, if you were paying an seo company to work on your behalf, who'd you rather work with... an outfit that guarantees to work only for you in your market space or one that'll work for your competitors as well simply because they have more to spend?

Ray

 

[MASSEY]

Well that's a terrible attitude to have. Remind everyone in the forum never to use you.

Excuse me Ray. "removed abusive comment" i dont recall inserting an abusive comment. <edit> You removed the one from my quote just remembered<edit>

What? So I'm supposed to refuse customers because I've dealt with another person in their industry in the past? Should I jack my prices right up, to accomodate?

I think that is a bad attitude to have yes. It is different for web designers as im sure you can see why.

If some one pays you a small fortune for seo, (because it is a small fortune in most cases) and then you later take on a new client to outrank the client you have already worked for, where is the morals in that?

I know i would feel un-comfortable conducting myself in that way.

 

[Tin]

If some one pays you a small fortune for seo, (because it is a small fortune in most cases) and then you later take on a new client to outrank the client you have already worked for, where is the morals in that?

I know i would feel un-comfortable conducting myself in that way.

You put that much better than I did, cheers.

 

[S-Marketing]

If nothing else, common decency and good manners will tell you that you cant do work for competing companies in businesses such as SEO.

Its the same with marketing. My clients pay me to give them a competitive advantage over the competition. If I then also work for the competition, noone gets an advantage. IMO this would make me nothing more than a fraudster and scammer.

 

Excuse me Ray. "removed abusive comment" i dont recall inserting an abusive comment. <edit> You removed the one from my quote just remembered<edit>

I think that is a bad attitude to have yes. It is different for web designers as im sure you can see why.

If some one pays you a small fortune for seo, (because it is a small fortune in most cases) and then you later take on a new client to outrank the client you have already worked for, where is the morals in that?

I know i would feel un-comfortable conducting myself in that way.

Quite agree far better to have 1 happy client than half a dozen unhappy ones with all the hassle that involves.

And in my case probably more financially rewarding as I only work on a profit share basis.

Besides how do you choose who is going to be top of the tree.?:|

Nope I value the relationships I have with the people I work with probably as much as any monentary rewards .( I might have to think about that for a while )

Earl

 

[Ewan Kennedy]

Whenever I comment on a blog or forum I make a point, out of courtesy, of reading the whole thread so that I ensure I am fully informed about all comments before making my own.

I apologise for not doing so on this occasion. Based on my reading of the first page or so, I would be pulling my hair out if I did.

When I think of SEO, I often find myself thinking of football. The rules are quite simple and everyone can therefore supposedly 'play' the game. Everyone plays by the same rules and yet somehow everybody can't curl one in straight from the corner post. Why is that?

The rules of the SEO game are far more complex and therefore provide far greater opportunity for the players to differentiate themselves by the application of intelligence.

The main shortcoming with my analogy, I think, is that those who fluff the corner kick can't hide whereas those who fluff their SEO, can hide behind smoke screens.

If I'm wrong, I'll humbly eat my (white) hat.

 

[-Joe-]

Would you like ketchup with that!!

It's our policy to only ever work with one client in any given sector. Our feeling is that it would be unethical to take payment (large or small) from one client who expects us to do our best in his business interests and then simply take money from another client targeting exactly the same keywords who happens to have deeper pockets.

We reached a tipping point over 5 years ago, we never advertise as new client work comes in on recommendations and are regularly booked 3-4 months ahead at any one time.

We take the view that we aren't out to conquer the world and that the world is big enough to accommodate plenty of seo companies who can deliver and to be honest, if you were paying an seo company to work on your behalf, who'd you rather work with... an outfit that guarantees to work only for you in your market space or one that'll work for your competitors as well simply because they have more to spend?

Ray

I'll be honest, I'm impressed. How have you managed to have 0 overlap in 5 years? Do you work on competitive keywords? How far away do you generally keep the niches? Do you have a time period you normally set apart between a client cancelling, and being willing to take on another in that niche?

Excuse me Ray. "removed abusive comment" i dont recall inserting an abusive comment. <edit> You removed the one from my quote just remembered<edit>

I think that is a bad attitude to have yes. It is different for web designers as im sure you can see why.

If some one pays you a small fortune for seo, (because it is a small fortune in most cases) and then you later take on a new client to outrank the client you have already worked for, where is the morals in that?

I know i would feel un-comfortable conducting myself in that way.

Yeah, sorry about that Ray, I apologise. Out of interest, is it ok to say fudge, or similar, as an alternative?

I don't know, I think web design is pretty similar in that aspect. You're helping a possible competitor become above the other client.

And yes, it is expensive. I generally charge a monthly fee (plus a first month fee). This includes maintenance.

Is it immoral to stop someone's small business succeeding because you're already working with someone in the same industry?

Also, if I don't take them on, then another SEO agency certainly will. What's the point of not taking up the job?

I wouldn't agree with the moral aspect, personally. However, I would notify the new potential client that I already work with someone in the same industry.

 

I'll be honest, I'm impressed. How have you managed to have 0 overlap in 5 years? Do you work on competitive keywords? How far away do you generally keep the niches? Do you have a time period you normally set apart between a client cancelling, and being willing to take on another in that niche?

Oh thats an easy one in 10 years Not one bleeding person has ended our relationship.

Smug or what.

Earl

 

[Tin]

I'll be honest, I'm impressed. How have you managed to have 0 overlap in 5 years?

It's actually been over 14 years (5 years was a tipping point) and it's never been a problem, I've been approached on a few occasions but it's never been an issue turning down clients from the same industry. As I said before, I'm not wanting to conquer the earth and there are more than enough clients to go around and an infinite amount of different market spaces.

Do you work on competitive keywords?

Yes, I've worked on very competitive keywords, although as Earl has pointed out, it is often the case that a good spread of longtails can often be a better ROI for the customer than one big trophy keyword.

How far away do you generally keep the niches?

It depends on the scope of the keywords, the main thing is to ensure that there can never be any overlap between the two. Niches are plentiful.

Do you have a time period you normally set apart between a client cancelling, and being willing to take on another in that niche?

No, one client, one market space, end of. Although we do build long term relationships with our clients it is purely on a monitoring basis, once the positions are reached the client simply monitors things and will get back in touch if and when needed, either to prop up established rankings or more commonly to branch out into other keyword groups.

Yeah, sorry about that Ray, I apologise. Out of interest, is it ok to say fudge, or similar, as an alternative?

Yes alternatives are acceptable, again within reason but it is not ok to use any obvious swear words or obscuring words to circumvent the swear filter.

Hope that helps

Ray

 

[Flying Hippy]

This was a long thread for me to read but interesting reading the White, Black and Grey. I'm not an seo expert. I have tried a few companies, no happiness.

I think what matters most to potential clients (or to keep clients) be is
not how high up the rank your keywords or links but conversion to customers and returning customers.

In my opinion I would be happy to look for company with 1 customer in each
sector. This would allow that company to be focus on one client and not just ending up using same terms ect as the other client then be told further down the line " if you were to spend more money."

What matters in any line of business is for the respect for one another.

 

[Birmingham]

Can anyone explain how on earth you could potentially increase your rankings on highly competitive keywords, when you're trying the exact same approach as all your competitors.

but the competitors are not all trying real white hat seo.

if you do real white hat seo, you can develop a really unique & useful product or resource that sells like hotcakes and can market it will market itself by word of mouth... the next big viral sensation... not many people have the patience to really work for this.

 

[mobyme]

Is it immoral to stop someone's small business succeeding because you're already working with someone in the same industry?

Also, if I don't take them on, then another SEO agency certainly will. What's the point of not taking up the job?

In a nutshell, yes; it's impossible to serve two masters and there has to be a conflict of interest if you do.
The fact that they will go with another agency is the whole point of your first client employing you in the first place.
I don't understand the morality. surely if you have to ask yourself the question then the answer is obvious.

 

[seoexpert]

Let me make myself extremely clear. The above two public comments made by you are libelous. You now have an opportunity to form a public apology in this thread, I require a formal public apology from you as this thread has been indexed by Google in it's public search results and you have libelled yourself.
If no public apology is made I will put your public statements regarding my business and my ethics into the hands of my lawyer.

Not a chance Tin, I believe in freedom of speech so No Apology!

Btw I don't appreciate threatening private messages. Call off the Hounds and apologise to me, or risk this escalating to the point where the only thing that comes up on Google Under "Tin Soldier" is negative publicity.

"When Two SEO's go to War, there is no shortage of backlinks"

 

[Flying Hippy]

Respect one another. This thread has been one long tit for tat match.

 

[awebapart.com]

This was a long thread for me to read but interesting reading the White, Black and Grey. I'm not an seo expert. I have tried a few companies, no happiness.

If you haven't received a return on your investment in seo companies, quite a few businesses don't, then you are in the red, so perhaps there should be another category...

red hat seo

i.e. seo companies that put you in the red and don't deliver a return on your investment, which I guess could apply to some white, grey, and black hat seo companies! (and to be fair to some seo companies, could also be the fault of the client business too, as in seo can "lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink")

 

[seoexpert]

If you haven't received a return on your investment in seo companies, quite a few businesses don't, then you are in the red, so perhaps there should be another category...

red hat seo

i.e. seo companies that put you in the red and don't deliver a return on your investment, which I guess could apply to some white, grey, and black hat seo companies!

I love it I can think of a couple of SEO companies in here that would fall into that catergory straight away

btw awebapart I want to find out some more about your services... your pre built websites could be beneficial for some of my "SEO to Sell" campaigns. Send me a PM please.

 

[omnivore]

Not a chance Tin, I believe in freedom of speech so No Apology!

i am no lawyer but my understanding is that `freedom of speech` does not also mean freedom from responsibility.

you may be free to describe someone as a murderer for example, if you choose to, but if you are wrong, and can be proved to be wrong then you are guilty of libel and could be prosecuted.

 

[RadiusBPO]

i am no lawyer but my understanding is that `freedom of speech` does not also mean freedom from responsibility.

you may be free to describe someone as a murderer for example, if you choose to, but if you are wrong, and can be proved to be wrong then you are guilty of libel and could be prosecuted.

I am guessing from his internet persona that he is below the age of responsibility.

 

Not a chance Tin, I believe in freedom of speech so No Apology!

Btw I don't appreciate threatening private messages. Call off the Hounds and apologise to me, or risk this escalating to the point where the only thing that comes up on Google Under "Tin Soldier" is negative publicity.

Seo expert

Now far be it for me to say you seem to be a piece of work or that you may know as much about SEO as me grannies dead uncle.

I also would never suggest that its possible that you are on this forum to scam the less well informed in to taking money under false pretences from them.

I might suggest that anyone pretending to be an SEO may be winging it if they could not provide proof of there abilities.

You may believe in freedom of speech ,but it may be that you are not quite such a believer in honesty and common sense.

Braggers only get away with it if they can prove what they are bragging about.

Earl

 

[seoexpert]

Libel only comes into play if opinions are asserted as "fact".

 

Libel only comes into play if opinions are asserted as "fact".

I suspect that statement is on par with any SEO abilities you may have.

Earl

 

[herodigital]

Libel only comes into play if opinions are asserted as "fact".

How have you not left this forum yet?! have you not subjected yourself to enough public embarassment??

 

[Faevilangel]

Libel only comes into play if opinions are asserted as "fact".

sometimes it's not worth the hassle to be a complete ass all the time,

Tin is well respected in his field and you have no facts to back up your claims, just be a good boy, admit you're in the wrong and move on.

 

[seoexpert]

Seo expert

Now far be it for me to say you seem to be a piece of work or that you may know as much about SEO as me grannies dead uncle.

I also would never suggest that its possible that you are on this forum to scam the less well informed in to taking money under false pretences from them.

I might suggest that anyone pretending to be an SEO may be winging it if they could not provide proof of there abilities.

You may believe in freedom of speech ,but it may be that you are not quite such a believer in honesty and common sense.

Braggers only get away with it if they can prove what they are bragging about.

Earl

Unfortunately Earl, You couldn't be more wrong. I take on SEO contracts payable upon "Results" and Results only...

No Bragging Neccessary, Results speak for themselves.

Now If I had SEO abilities on par with whichever dead Grandparent you mentioned earlier, that would be kind of a foolish approach to take, don't you agree?

I don't need to mention my prior SEO rankings, I've thrown out an open challenge to all you SEOs out there, to choose a keyword and domain and compete with me to see who comes out on top.

None of you, so called specialists have taken me up on it, so I'm guessing that you're afraid to do so.

As long as none of youare prepared to take on the challenge, I'm choosing to label you all as cowards, and seriously questioning your ability to get rankings.

Sorry but that's the way It goes. All I'm hearing from most of you, is the "we know better than you" response.

My reponse to that is "Prove It and Put your money where you mouth is"

 

[Flying Hippy]

SEOEXPERT can you please enlighten us and tell us which sites you have done to the public ? a portfolio of your work ? no PM so everyone can judge?

 

[Faevilangel]

I'm choosing to label you all as cowards, and seriously questioning your ability to get rankings.

Maybe they don't want to play games with children, have too much work on to play the stupid games and aren't childish enough to want to play stupid games.

 

My reponse to that is "Prove It and Put your money where you mouth is"

Now laddie that exactly what I have been asking you to do.

But so far ziltch zero nothing.

All the pro SEO's on here are pretty well known for there excellent work and results.

So why don't you try and join them instead of spouting hot air.?.

Earl

 

[seoexpert]

Sorry Flying Hippo, No can do. I gave one "SEO to Sell" domain earlier, and that's all I'm giving.

The reason being, confidentaility for my clients. I'm sure you understand.

Nice Site btw You could do with having the full twitter api embedded as a RSS rather than just the button, It helps provides regular content that Google Likes.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

When I think of SEO, I often find myself thinking of football. The rules are quite simple and everyone can therefore supposedly 'play' the game. Everyone plays by the same rules and yet somehow everybody can't curl one in straight from the corner post. Why is that?

Good analogy. Lionel Messi plays by the same rules as (name any Scottish player - lol), but the end result is very different.

Why shouldn't two SEOs with the same approach also have differing results?

SEO involves skill and surely the most skilled can simply outperform the less skilled.

Steve

 

[trebor8]

and some players don't play by the rules, they get sent off

and some get away with it

 

[SEO Lady]

Anyone who wants to criticise, my actual Rebuttal is "Give me a keyword and I'll challenge any of you on it"

I'm looking for another "SEO to sell" project so...

Words mean nothing, the proof is in the pudding folks!

How about 'seo manchester'?

 

[SEO Lady]

I am on my second bag of popcorn

I have just polished off a hot sausage and mayo roll, with a cup of tea and a chocolate biscuit.

I was wondering if 'seoexpert' was on Gpage1 for that keyword but now I am confused as to location and whether 'seoexpert' once worked for It's Cold Outside?

 

Good analogy. Lionel Messi plays by the same rules as (name any Scottish player - lol), but the end result is very different.

Why shouldn't two SEOs with the same approach also have differing results?

SEO involves skill and surely the most skilled can simply outperform the less skilled.

Steve

Well I suspect you have left out tactics which as any good football manager will tell you is paramount ,Ithink.:|

Earl

 

[I, Brian]

or risk this escalating to the point where the only thing that comes up on Google Under "Tin Soldier" is negative publicity.

Well, I've made every effort to ignore the troll and there should be no place for anyone like that on this forums - personal insults and public threats against other member's businesses cannot be acceptable.

However, I will put it on public record that if I find anyone one here attempting to harm any of my friends and colleagues on UKBF, I will put as many of my resources as possible into protecting them against such actions.

I work with major generic keywords in very competitive industries; reputation managed government agencies off the front page; and run social media campaigns across dozens of platforms. And I can easily bring all this to bear without batting an eyelid.

I would hope I wouldn't need to, but if anyone attempts to harm anyone else on here, I will be more than happy and capable of undoing it.

In the meantime, time for this thread to be removed methinks.

 

[Vending Siting Services]

Thread being closed.