White Hat SEO Is Dead!

[herodigital]

I did do a quick research experiment into "SEO Leeds". seoleeds.net is leading at the mo, which granted is a keyword rich domain, and the anchors are relevant. However they don't have many links pointing at it at though.

Using greyhat techniques I could easily get about 10k recognised anchor links pointing at by the end of the month with minimal effort from me.

Semi Automation all the way....

Linkwheels, RSS Aggregation, Article Submission, Spinnable Content, RSS Pings, Auto Directory Submissions, etc.

I guess the question here, is how hard it is to get ranking on that search term... I consider it easy and if I greyhat it I'll do it in no time flat...

But all I can see is that whatemcalled company tried, and gave up.

Bear in mind as well that SEO Leeds is a buying keyword.... generally going to be people looking for SEO services in the leeds area...

From my point of view ranking on "SEO Leeds" is pure profit.

Granted I have written a few articles and placed my link on client sites in order to gently push up the rankings; it's passive to say the absolute least. I have made no real attempt to rank for that keyword as quite simply, I am busy enough.

You seem like a real newbie both to SEO and business.

The methods you listed, link wheels and so forth, is not even grey hat - it's a GOOD method to build quality links. but your arrogance and silly attitude will be your undoing.

 

[seoexpert]

Granted I have written a few articles and placed my link on client sites in order to gently push up the rankings; it's passive to say the absolute least. I have made no real attempt to rank for that keyword as quite simply, I am busy enough.

You seem like a real newbie both to SEO and business.

The methods you listed, link wheels and so forth, is not even grey hat - it's a GOOD method to build quality links. but your arrogance and silly attitude will be your undoing.

Maybe I seem like a real newbie, but I'm not

The greyhat bit is in the automation involve.

Automate the beaut... It's not competitive, you could get ranking 1st in no time at all.

Automated Spinnable Directory Submissions, for starters...... ok small individual impact on ranking... but do it in the 10 x thousands, bingo! you're ranking!

 

[herodigital]

Maybe I seem like a real newbie, but I'm not

The greyhat bit is in the automation involve.

Automate the beaut... It's not competitive, you could get ranking 1st in no time at all.

Automated Spinnable Directory Submissions, for starters...... ok small individual impact on ranking... but do it in the 10 x thousands, bingo! you're ranking!

come on, spinning articles is nothing new and neither is automating the process. do you think you're the only person using this software?

also, i choose to either write or outsource my content generation tasks because even though most of it will never be read (by human eyes), I deal with some quite high profile clients so I want to ensure anything that is getting published, that links back to them, is of some value. you never know how much a poorly written, inaccurate piece can come back and haunt you...

 

Anyone can use ppc, affiliate marketing, adsense etc. to improve their rankings temporarily

Well I suspect you did not just shoot yourself in the foot.

You blew both legs off.

Earl

 

[fisicx]

Automated Spinnable Directory Submissions, for starters...... ok small individual impact on ranking... but do it in the 10 x thousands, bingo! you're ranking!

O Rly? Just about one of the most pointless exercises there is. One decent inbound link could easily negate all your automated toys.

Not quite sure how you can be a graduate employee (what sort of degree I wonder) and not a newbie. There a people here who have been doing the job for many years, work for themselves or own SEO companies. There are real experts whose worth is in millions. When you work for yourself earning your own wages doing SEO work for real clients and your company wins internationally recognised awards for SEO then you can put in your expert's claim.

 

[Faevilangel]

I personally ignore people who put "seoexpert", "seoguru", "seogod" or anything beginning with seo in their name (except if it's their business name). It's basically a nerd at school putting his hand up to answer all the questions.

The reputable seo's on this forum don't mention seo in their name and don't jump up and down shouting we can do this.

"Seoexpert", most seo's won't optimise their own sites as they are too busy to worry about that. 90% of reputable seo's will get work from word of mouth rather than their websites, and don't need to rank for "seo in leeds" to get work.

 

"Seoexpert", most seo's won't optimise their own sites as they are too busy to worry about that. 90% of reputable seo's will get work from word of mouth rather than their websites, and don't need to rank for "seo in leeds" to get work.

Not only that but what SEO in there right mind would work with a tight git from Yorkshire.?

Any Yorkshire men on the forum its a joke ,any really big Yorkshire men Profound apologies.:|

Earl

 

[gemd89]

Earl - You are probably right, someone came to pick an ebay item up from me other day. 99p - he waited for 1p change! omg - barnsley folk!

We aint all that tight!

Gemma

 

[RadiusBPO]

A lot of people scream about real SEOs not optimising their own sites because they don't have time. But what if they have a lot of staff and their aim is to grow their own business as well as their clients or can you only be a real SEO if you don't have business aims?

 

[gemd89]

I personally look for where they got their previous clients listed when picking someone to do SEO work.

Im currently with a company that is page 1/page 2 and to be honest im not sure they are that brill!

Gemma

 

[Faevilangel]

A lot of people scream about real SEOs not optimising their own sites because they don't have time. But what if they have a lot of staff and their aim is to grow their own business as well as their clients or can you only be a real SEO if you don't have business aims?

What would you rather expect from someone you pay SEO for? Them getting you the results or them optimising their own site?

If the seo's had time to do their own sites, they would but it's far more constructive to be working on a clients site.

 

[NLP Trainer]

Follow your shady competitors and you may just find yourself banned/penalised a week later along with competitor. Making organic SEO a race doesn't actually get you that far, it might do for a while then no doubt back to the starting line.. slow and steady wins the race.

If your going to do anything, you would be better off making two white hat websites, and ten grey/blackhat that way you are the competition

Yep, I agree. Much better to think about it as a medium to long term project. No quick fix.

 

[herodigital]

I personally ignore people who put "seoexpert", "seoguru", "seogod" or anything beginning with seo in their name (except if it's their business name). It's basically a nerd at school putting his hand up to answer all the questions.

The reputable seo's on this forum don't mention seo in their name and don't jump up and down shouting we can do this.

"Seoexpert", most seo's won't optimise their own sites as they are too busy to worry about that. 90% of reputable seo's will get work from word of mouth rather than their websites, and don't need to rank for "seo in leeds" to get work.

this is true, in my case i could actually continue quite happily without even having a website. if anything though it acts as a hub for my services, a place to point potentials after meeting them or speaking on the phone. don't expect much directly through the website tbh.

 

A lot of people scream about real SEOs not optimising their own sites because they don't have time. But what if they have a lot of staff and their aim is to grow their own business as well as their clients or can you only be a real SEO if you don't have business aims?

Most larger companies will in fact optimise there sites to get high rankings for SEO as they need quantity to keep there workers employed.

But remember in most larger companies is there is only 1 SEO expert.

Earl

 

[seoexpert]

come on, spinning articles is nothing new and neither is automating the process. do you think you're the only person using this software?

also, i choose to either write or outsource my content generation tasks because even though most of it will never be read (by human eyes), I deal with some quite high profile clients so I want to ensure anything that is getting published, that links back to them, is of some value. you never know how much a poorly written, inaccurate piece can come back and haunt you...

but "Automation" is greyhat... It's outside Googles TOS and It's unnatural... So.... I think the whole outrage about grayhat being the wrong approach etc. is kind of hypocritical.

Also all new content has to be written by a person... what's your point?

Personally I think you're bricking it in case people realise they don't need your services... and can do it themselves for jackall effort with just some clever technology and a bit of specialist knowhow...

It's as if by stigmatising automation you're ensuring alot of healthy competition.... forget that.. I'll tell people I'll automate stuff... but I get results so who cares.

 

[awebapart.com]

I personally ignore people who put "seoexpert", "seoguru", "seogod" or anything beginning with seo in their name (except if it's their business name). It's basically a nerd at school putting his hand up to answer all the questions.

The reputable seo's on this forum don't mention seo in their name and don't jump up and down shouting we can do this.

Any switched on SEO guru, wanting to gain SEO benefit from their forum name for the anchor word SEO, would have hyphenated their SEO-name forum name!

 

[RadiusBPO]

When I buy things I know I am paying over the cost to manufacture. I understand that the company has to market themselves, admin to do etc, and I don't care if the MD drives an expensive car. I don't see the problem with people wanting to reward themselves and grow a business, maybe employ some people.

Sirearl - Marketing to keep their employees employed is fine with me and I expect it with everything I buy.

 

[herodigital]

Personally I think you're bricking it in case people realise they don't need your services... and can do it themselves for jackall effort with just some clever technology and a bit of specialist knowhow...

but that sentence JUST DESCRIBED YOU! honestly how can you sell these services when you're just automating things.

and btw, i HATE automation. whether its article spinning, submission, tweet bots, whatever.. nobody ever created a genuinely good business by automating things. you need to keep your eye on the ball and actually HELP the client, not just save yourself a bit of time.

back to college with you.

 

[I, Brian]

A lot of people scream about real SEOs not optimising their own sites because they don't have time. But what if they have a lot of staff and their aim is to grow their own business as well as their clients or can you only be a real SEO if you don't have business aims?

I think it's a basic business decision - many SME's are effectively sole traders who enjoy being hands-on with the business, and SEO's as no exception.

Many good SEO's are simply problem solvers who enjoy solving problems, rather than dreaming of owning a private jet.

And I figure many are usually comfortably busy with client sites and own income streams to care for the hassle of investing in business expansion, with the potential business risks, added pressures, and greater personal demands this would bring - simply to make more money less efficiently.

Besides, anyone whose ever done a test on "SEO" keywords will know they convert very poorly. "Internet marketing" converts much better.

 

[RadiusBPO]

The point I am trying to make is that I don't think business ambition is the sign of a poor SEO, or any other trade. And I don't understand how a SEO company at the top of Google can be widely accepted as worse than a company not on Google, by the same measure any company, plumbers, cleaners, toy shops can't possibly be as good as their non marketing counterparts.

 

[Tin]

Well Tom, You seem to know more about SEO that both Hero and Tin Soldier put together Not a good advertisement for their services though.

I guess that would be counter productive for them, because I presume they want to squeeze as much money out of you as possible.

Let me make myself extremely clear. The above two public comments made by you are libelous. You now have an opportunity to form a public apology in this thread, I require a formal public apology from you as this thread has been indexed by Google in it's public search results and you have libelled yourself.
If no public apology is made I will put your public statements regarding my business and my ethics into the hands of my lawyer.

 

[mobyme]

Yeah perhaps I'm beginning to look a bit arrogant, but hey at least I'm not looking incompetent like you.

Right now all your looking like is a bl00dy idiot. I don't believe for a moment that you are "a full time mature graduate inhouse SEO expert" far more likely a schoolkid whose in danger of having his computer confiscated. Do yourself a favour and apologise; then leave the forum until such time as you have grown up. I don't know an awful lot about Hero, but Ray (Tin) has forgotten more about SEO than you are ever likely to learn.

 

Many good SEO's are simply problem solvers who enjoy solving problems, rather than dreaming of owning a private jet.

Yep the wife does the cross words and I do the really cross words.

Earl

 

[George S]

I think one has to employ a a mixture of tactics to ensure best results. Many websites simply do not have the resources or funding to shell mountains of cash to supposed SEO experts promising the earth and failing deliver. With so many competitors on the web you have to really ask yourself how big is my slice of cake going to get any bigger with all this investment?

Being at the top doesn't necessarily bring the best rewards, sometimes you make more when your second best as your expenditure is less and perhaps you can save on resources.

As SEO evolves the line between white and black continues to grow and even the shades of grey can have contrast of light and dark.

 

[I, Brian]

The point I am trying to make is that I don't think business ambition is the sign of a poor SEO, or any other trade. And I don't understand how a SEO company at the top of Google can be widely accepted as worse than a company not on Google, by the same measure any company, plumbers, cleaners, toy shops can't possibly be as good as their non marketing counterparts.

The trouble is that too often these companies weight themselves far too much towards sales with little emphasis on providing a good service. The business goal is making as much money as possible, rather than client satisfaction.

Large SEO companies who should be able to invest in a killer multi-strategic SEO service too often just rely on student interns sending mass link buying requests, all managed by someone with at least basic SEO knowledge, but limited on how they can apply the service properly.

The business model success then comes down on simply ensuring your acquisition rate is higher than your churn, rather than delivering a service valuable enough to ensure client retention.

Same with cold calls.

Also, if you ever reverse engineer a lot of the companies ranking top for SEO, you'll find a number are simply adding self-promotional links on their own client's websites. Trying to leverage clients to promote themselves has to take from the client's own service, and not be in their interest.

It also makes it easy for Google to find the clients and penalise them.

Similarly if you have the link building capabilities to rank for a competitive keyword such as "SEO", you are handing your entire back link profile to Google and asking them to devalue it. That can hardly be helpful if the company's clients are riding on the same strategy, and again, can easily be traced.

Because of issues such as these, it's hard to well-regard companies that directly compete for SEO keywords on Google because of having a sales-driven business, rather than one that is service based.

There are good companies out there who may target "SEO" directly or indirectly - I know Aaron Wall at SEO Book and Rand Fishkin at SEOmoz have done this, and both are highly respectable individuals with good companies behind them. However, as a general rule, some degree of cynicism is required I think.

Hope that helps.

 

[RadiusBPO]

The trouble is that too often these companies weight themselves far too much towards sales with little emphasis on providing a good service. The business goal is making as much money as possible, rather than client satisfaction.

Large SEO companies who should be able to invest in a killer multi-strategic SEO service too often just rely on student interns sending mass link buying requests, all managed by someone with at least basic SEO knowledge, but limited on how they can apply the service properly.

The business model success then comes down on simply ensuring your acquisition rate is higher than your churn, rather than delivering a service valuable enough to ensure client retention.

Same with cold calls.

Also, if you ever reverse engineer a lot of the companies ranking top for SEO, you'll find a number are simply adding self-promotional links on their own client's websites. Trying to leverage clients to promote themselves has to take from the client's own service, and not be in their interest.

It also makes it easy for Google to find the clients and penalise them.

Similarly if you have the link building capabilities to rank for a competitive keyword such as "SEO", you are handing your entire back link profile to Google and asking them to devalue it. That can hardly be helpful if the company's clients are riding on the same strategy, and again, can easily be traced.

Because of issues such as these, it's hard to well-regard companies that directly compete for SEO keywords on Google because of having a sales-driven business, rather than one that is service based.

There are good companies out there who may target "SEO" directly or indirectly - I know Aaron Wall at SEO Book and Rand Fishkin at SEOmoz have done this, and both are highly respectable individuals with good companies behind them. However, as a general rule, some degree of cynicism is required I think.

Hope that helps.

I think I understand what you are saying about these companies having an easier time as they use clients sites for links. And they may be more sales orientated.

But it's not only the SEOs site which is at risk of being examined, any site could be. And I don't understand why if an SEO company is ranking though client sites links why their clients would be punished, they wouldn't use clients site for clients sites would they? Basically creating massive link farms. I haven't seen this.

This is interesting and look forward to learning more.

 

[eventdomain]

Many websites simply do not have the resources or funding to shell mountains of cash to supposed SEO experts promising the earth and failing deliver. With so many competitors on the web you have to really ask yourself how big is my slice of cake going to get any bigger with all this investment?

Very accurate and mature, I applaud you! All too often theres too many competitors for everyone to get work - just look at how many SEO freelancers there are and they fight for work like crazy. Sometimes doing new things is the only answer.

Being at the top doesn't necessarily bring the best rewards

but its more than that, you need to care about what you're doing, and have passion. Someone can be good, but not care about the client as much as someone else, and people want a bit of service these days.

 

Very accurate and mature, I applaud you! All too often theres too many competitors for everyone to get work - just look at how many SEO freelancers there are and they fight for work like crazy. Sometimes doing new things is the only answer.

Nice to see you have found a soul mate I was a bit worried about you.:|

Its always nice when you find people who speak the same language.

Earl

 

[adventurelife]

- just look at how many SEO freelancers there are and they fight for work like crazy. Sometimes doing new things is the only answer.

Look at it the other way

How many websites are they that are not on page 1?

There has never been more demand for SEO's who are quality and can produce results.

That demand will increase as the developing world comes on stream more than it is at present.

The issue is not demand that is huge. It is communication and results. If SEO's can communicate and demonstrate results they will have more clients than they can handle.

If they cannot do the above they are in the wrong business

 

[trebor8]

In Summary.

Getting top ranking is important

How you get there is far more important

 

[I, Brian]

I think I understand what you are saying about these companies having an easier time as they use clients sites for links. And they may be more sales orientated.

But it's not only the SEOs site which is at risk of being examined, any site could be. And I don't understand why if an SEO company is ranking though client sites links why their clients would be punished, they wouldn't use clients site for clients sites would they? Basically creating massive link farms. I haven't seen this.

This is interesting and look forward to learning more.

Well, let's look at the current top site for "SEO" in UK search: crearecommunications.co.uk

A quick linkdomain check shows up sites like these:
burninginspirations.co.uk
elitewindows.info
windmillvillagehotel.co.uk

They give the impression of being client sites used as one big link farm.

It's all just a huge over-the-radar invitation for Google to devalue them all - not something I would want to pay for if I wanted a long-term presence on Google!

 

[eventdomain]

they will have more clients than they can handle.

So where do all these clients fit on page one exactly - there's only 10 spots available.

But an SEO would have to make the promise to get every client on page one for No1 ranking. How is that possible - there's no room at the inn!

If you got me to No1, that will knock someone down to No2 spot for the same keyword - it must do. So what happens to the No2 guy who paid £1000 for his No1 spot?

Suggest a different keyword to him? But he doesn't want that, he wants to rank for the same word - and so will everyone else in that industry!

 

[RadiusBPO]

Well, let's look at the current top site for "SEO" in UK search: crearecommunications.co.uk

A quick linkdomain check shows up sites like these:
burninginspirations.co.uk
elitewindows.info
windmillvillagehotel.co.uk

They give the impression of being client sites used as one big link farm.

It's all just a huge over-the-radar invitation for Google to devalue them all - not something I would want to pay for if I wanted a long-term presence on Google!

Oh yeah! Wow. Everyone I checked except Grand Pianos is being used as a linkfarm network. I don't really understand why they are using them actually, I checked a couple of rankings for easy geo keywords and their clients weren't ranking too well. Maybe because none of the other pages are relevant.

Does Google actually take a large set of sites like this and all in one devalue. Surely SEO is one keyword they would be watching closely and would have already inspected their profile?

PS whats with their annoying talking actors. grrr.

 

[dagaul101]

It's a passionate topic, people can argue that those who got where they are as the top sites for their niche, only achieved it via black hat techniques, and since the search engines are changing their rules to make it more organic friendly, and leaving those who have achieved status by black hat means, it leaves everybody else at a terrible disadvantage

 

So where do all these clients fit on page one exactly - there's only 10 spots available.

Not quite as there are thousands of keyword combinations that attract visitors to a site in most industries.

In fact you may be surprised to find how little traffic is generated by the majors as the majority of traffic comes from long tail by a long way.

when like one of the sites I look after you have 731,000 pages ,then the keyword combinations can be pretty awesome.

Earl

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Employ the best SEO, and ensure he gives written assurance not to work for competing businesses. Then let the other 9 below you worry about YOU

 

[eventdomain]

ensure he gives written assurance not to work for competing businesses.

If you get that, I'll eat my keyboard.

 

[eventdomain]

thousands of keyword combinations

Wow, the testing alone to find out which keyword works and what doesn't must be incredible. So a website owner with 750k of pages is going to test that lot?

Many sites have 500 to 1000 pages each, so testing every keyword, so every page can be SEO'd would take too long.

 

Wow, the testing alone to find out which keyword works and what doesn't must be incredible. So a website owner with 750k of pages is going to test that lot?

Many sites have 500 to 1000 pages each, so testing every keyword, so every page can be SEO'd would take too long.

For you it might,but for us OAP whizz kids its a doddle.

Earl

 

[I, Brian]

Does Google actually take a large set of sites like this and all in one devalue. Surely SEO is one keyword they would be watching closely and would have already inspected their profile?

Certainly it's happened before, and certainly you can expect Google to notice.