Omicron could be the Covid end game.....

[Paul Carmen]

Hmmm

 

[Justin Smith]

Hmmm

Paul, you are often the voice of reason, do you think Omicron (because of it is so infectious, will be the end game - one way or the other - of the pandemic ?

 

[DontAsk]

South African Eyewitness News journalist Ray White has just been on the radio saying, if anything, their Covid deaths are going down and the Worldometer graph of Deaths in SA backs this up. Remember The first Omicron cases were discovered there in the first week of November, i.e. about 6 weeks ago. White thinks we're over reacting, as do I.

Data coming out of South Africa is data for South Africa. The demographics and pandemic histories are very different and you cannot simply read across to predict what might happen in the UK.

 

[Justin Smith]

I am not going to get involved in a pointless debate about filtering on here - but suffice to say you would have to be incredibly unlucky if you were wearing full leathers and helmet to be killed at 40mph, a speed hit my many cyclists in lycra and a tiny helmet downhill every weekend

I have had a bike as my main means of transport since i was 16, i didnt get a car licence until i was 28 and a few months from becoming a father, i have done hundreds of thousands of miles, do not consider myself a particularly safe or dangerous rider but consider filtering in town to be one of the least dangerous elements of riding (and yes that can mean speeds of up to 40 where legal to but i try not to exceed that). Biggest danger on my old commute was cars nipping early into a certain bus lane to turn left and just glancing in their mirror for a double decker bus rather than a bike or cycle especially as evening rush hour the setting sun was in their mirrors. I had 3 near misses in 10 years, there were at least 5 fatalities i knew of (and another life changing moped/van accident only 10 days ago).
Also If a car is doing 20mph and you are filtering at 40mph, the relative closing speed is 20mph and few 40mph limit roads have random pedestrians crossing through traffic (or they wouldnt be a 40)

I loved my bikes, I absolutely did, but found it hard to ride slowly out on the country roads. I was single then and didn't particularly mind the idea I might get killed because I loved riding my bike so much. What made me sell my bike was the realisation I would probably end up with only one leg, or worse. Once that penny dropped it was in the paper for sale within days. This is relevant for a Covid thread because it shows I consider quality of life far more important than length of life.
More than anything in the case of my mother in law stuck in her semi prison of a care home for nearly two years being looked after by staff in masks, esp now they have all been jabbed anyway = Madness.
But also myself, I don't want all these restrictions on my life because it might decrease my chances of catching Covid by 20 or 30%. no, I'd rather take my chances, esp now they are tilted even further in my favour thanks to the vaccine.

 

[simon field]

There does seem to be a large increase in the amount of neurotic people in the last two years, if the media’s rhetoric is to be believed.

 

[Justin Smith]

Data coming out of South Africa is data for South Africa. The demographics and pandemic histories are very different and you cannot simply read across to predict what might happen in the UK.

Right I thought someone would say this.
SA has a younger population than us, but also a much lower vaccination rate, about a third of ours. One of the government "experts" on the radio also seemed to be implying that SA had a higher Covid infection rate than us and that was why Omicron was less of a problem than it might be here.

So, what you, and some of these Sage scientists are saying is :

1 - That the vaccines aren't that good (relatively speaking).
2 - The virus is very discriminate.
3 - A high infection rate is a good thing as the resulting immunity is good.

All three are the opposite of official government policy ! ! !

There does seem to be a large increase in the amount of neurotic people in the last two years, if the media’s rhetoric is to be believed.

I would have thought that is absolutely certain.

Prof Hunter says this combined level of vaccine-induced and infection-induced immunity means the case for extra restrictions beyond what has been announced is much weaker than it was previously.
Tougher measures, he says, will not stop the epidemic, they will just extend it. "If you are waiting for vaccines or better treatments, suppressing the virus could be an advantage - but it's hard to see the argument for that now."
Protecting the NHS from being completely overwhelmed would, of course, necessitate action.
But Prof Hunter says he is "cautiously optimistic" that will not happen, believing the public will naturally start to curb their behaviour given the concern being expressed about Omicron.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59658486

 

[DontAsk]

So, what you, and some of these Sage scientists are saying is :

What I am saying was very clear in my post, thank you. It doesn't need reinterpreting to your trusted agenda.

 

[Ozzy]

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything you are saying.

If the bikers kills himself what business is it of ours ?

Him deciding "I've had enough of this" is perfectly rational. Who are we to tell him not to do it ?

From what it looks like to me your opinion is just let everyone else either kill themselves or just die because that is not your problem. You basically don't want your own life effected and it doesn't matter if anyone else is impacted.

How can anyone say they are an unbiased news organisation ? I've gone right of the BBC, scrap the licence fee I say, get rid of them (and I used to be a BBC fan).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-59658486

...and the BBC is bias and we should get rid of them unless it runs a story that fits with your agenda you are trying to push, in which case it is then a reliable news source and we should all pay attention.

Excellent, I think we've cleared that all up now.

 

[MikeJ]

People in hospital with Covid in London have gone from 1000 at the start of the month to around 1800 now. Still, it's a much milder form of the disease so nothing to worry about.

 

[MBE2017]

Omicron infections have started to reduce in South Africa, a hopeful sign that it is a very fast and infectious strain, but which is nowhere near as bad as the Delta strain. If the UK follows the same pattern we might also see a peak in the next week or so, with a decline afterwards.

It seems safe to assume it is much more prevalent than currently thought, since many have very mild symptoms many of the cases are almost certainly not picked up in the figures.

I hope so, best advice so far is even with two to three vaccinations, it is getting through, so dose up on vitamin D3 and K2 vitamins, which alleviate most of the worse symptoms for many.

Here is a quick question, with Vitamin D so cheap to use as a preventative and health authorities around the world knowing this, why is there no real guidance on this? Why the silence? Maybe it just comes down to money.

 

[MikeJ]

I take vitamin tablets every day, mainly for the iron supplement but if you're doing that, then you may as well take one that covers all the main vitamins. It's literally pennies per day, no excuse for anyone not to take one.

 

[IanSuth]

Omicron infections have started to reduce in South Africa, a hopeful sign that it is a very fast and infectious strain, but which is nowhere near as bad as the Delta strain. If the UK follows the same pattern we might also see a peak in the next week or so, with a decline afterwards.

It seems safe to assume it is much more prevalent than currently thought, since many have very mild symptoms many of the cases are almost certainly not picked up in the figures.

I hope so, best advice so far is even with two to three vaccinations, it is getting through, so dose up on vitamin D3 and K2 vitamins, which alleviate most of the worse symptoms for many.

Here is a quick question, with Vitamin D so cheap to use as a preventative and health authorities around the world knowing this, why is there no real guidance on this? Why the silence? Maybe it just comes down to money.

Most people deemed vulnerable have been prescribed it since early last year

My daughters ex has sickle cell and he is on a daily prescribed vitD regime, plus my mother and late step father had it on prescription.

The worry is that even if it is 1/4 as likely to land you in hospital, if there are 10x the infections that is still 2.5x as many in hospital. Plus despite recent comments saying all is fine with 999 in the capital I know that roughly 30/135 London Fire appliances are out of service due to crew shortages at present

 

[cjd]

I looked into the Vitamin D thing a while back and the consensus then was that unless your were deficient there's no benefit from taking it. Is there new evidence?

 

[IanSuth]

I looked into the Vitamin D thing a while back and the consensus then was that unless your were deficient there's no benefit from taking it. Is there new evidence?

Don't think so, in fact end of Sep 21 NICE were asking for people to do research - as far as i know advice is the same. If you are in a vulnerable group or dark skinned take VitD. I think some people have decided as Black and Asians appear to be more at risk of Covid and since they have naturally lover UV produced VitD due to skin pigmentation pus there is less covid in summer there must be some kind of link so best take VitD to be safe, and that has grown into accepted wisdom

 

[Justin Smith]

Data coming out of South Africa is data for South Africa. The demographics and pandemic histories are very different and you cannot simply read across to predict what might happen in the UK.

What I am saying was very clear in my post, thank you. It doesn't need reinterpreting to your trusted agenda.

Sorry, Whitty and SAGE were saying exactly what you were, I was imply pointing out that is inconsistent with official government policy :

I want to make sure I'm not misunderstanding anything you are saying.

From what it looks like to me your opinion is just let everyone else either kill themselves or just die because that is not your problem. You basically don't want your own life effected and it doesn't matter if anyone else is impacted.

Well you are misunderstanding what I am saying, deliberately or by accident.
What I said if a biker kills himself who are we to tell him he should not do that ?
Even more so if someone wants to finish their lives who are we to say they should not ? We can try and persuade them but apart from that, who are we to tell them what to do ?

...and the BBC is bias and we should get rid of them unless it runs a story that fits with your agenda you are trying to push, in which case it is then a reliable news source and we should all pay attention.

Excellent, I think we've cleared that all up now.

The BBC is undoubtedly biased in favour of the government's Covid suppression narrative. I could give you loads of example but I would be wasting my time, there are none so blind.....

 

[fisicx]

@Justin Smith - if you feel so strongly about all this why aren’t you doing something about it? Are you joining in all the protests. Are you publishing your finding on social media? Do you have posters in the shop window? Have you spoken to your MP?

Or are you just posting here?

 

[Ozzy]

Even more so if someone wants to finish their lives who are we to say they should not ? We can try and persuade them but apart from that, who are we to tell them what to do ?

...because sometimes they cannot see a way out and all they need is help and support, and someone to listen and be there for them.

For the avoidance of doubt for anyone reading this I cannot and will not either personally or through UKBF endorse or support your views.

 

[kulture]

I see that this thread is going off track AGAIN, and again it is the OP who is doing this. Perhaps just using this thread as a soapbox to peddle his own views.

In the real world people are scared. This is not helped by seeing others going around ignoring the safety advice. Seeing people walking around ignoring social distancing and not wearing masks. Now it does not matter what you believe, nor whether masks do or do not help. What matters is what a significant number of the public believe. If they continue to feel unsafe then they will continue to stay away from shops and hospitality and those businesses will suffer.

Omicron is just another varient. There will be more. Indeed the more people infected, the more people unvaccinated, the more mutations will arise and the more varients will be identified. This will never stop. So there is no "end game". Life has changed and will continue to change. There is no going back.

 

[Paul Carmen]

Paul, you are often the voice of reason, do you think Omicron (because of it is so infectious, will be the end game - one way or the other - of the pandemic ?

I'm not sure about that, we all have our biases and this is a subject that causes massive cognitive dissonance.

I also don't think you'll like my opinion, or my analysis of the situation!

Effectively, I believe you're kicking out stats and quotes again due to your frustration with the whole Covid situation, which I understand, it's really rather depressing. However, it's no different to your other threads or predictions that have never really come to fruition! "Omicron could be the Covid end game" is the same myopic position as "Vaccine anyone?" and "Was Sweden right after all?" type threads...

Unfortunately, it just isn't that simple. As we've seen everywhere, it is the hospitalisations and pressure on the NHS/hospitals that are the driver of changes or lockdown. Now the argument for lockdown from Whitty and SAGE may be wrong, if they are the NHS may be fine, however, if they're right, after Christmas is already too late.

The big issue here is you have to make a sensible call beforehand, London hospitals are already looking shaky. However, there is already a big knock on impact on the economy from people self isolating and staff shortages, which will have a considerable impact on availability and inflation too. Plus, hospitality/retail has had a real kicking now, at a time when they make the majority of their money.

It's all pointless really, unless you're going to agitate and drive change in some way; e.g. protest, hassle your MP, start a political party etc. You'd be better off diverting your energy and taking up a hobby or working on a new business venture. You are not going to change anything venting on here or social media.

It's the same issue with your motorbike suicide argument. You have to obey the rules because it's for the common good; the police, fire brigade and ambulance service/NHS shouldn't have to deal with you or your smoking wreckage, let alone the risk to someone else getting caught up in it.

 

[Paul Carmen]

Thinking about it, I suspect you wanted my opinion on whether Omicron is the Covid end game... it's not a short answer, but on balance it's a no, and I think much bigger changes are needed to actually see an end to it.

Like you, I'm no fan of restrictions, or being told what to do. I've been out and about as close to normal as possible, but Omicron is a game changer, I went to gigs, pubs, restaurants and had no Delta variant problems. Then pretty much everyone I knew (including me), got Covid going out in London in the first week of December, my family then got it despite self isolating too.

Although I'm double jabbed and wear an N95/FFP2 mask in shops and public transport, as its no inconvenience for me, it turned out my Astra Zeneca vaccinations had virtually no impact against Omicron. Plus who wears masks in pubs and restaurants!

I am a fan of proper data and science though. I'd booked my 3rd jab, but couldn't have it when I wanted. I was actually due to get it the week I got ill. This is despite strong evidence showing that after 3-4 months the vaccine based immunity level was very low, but no, 6 months it had to be...

I think we are having the wrong debates, the data and information available to us is rubbish. I initially thought it was a divide and conquer position from the government, but the Tories are as big a bunch of cranks and flat earthers as you'll ever see, they have no regard for you and are just completely inept.

As an example, their current stance is less about science/data and more about a political position to appease the far right back benchers and not have to replace Boris in the next month. Looking at the wider picture, test and trace as it stands is utterly pointless, yet they've wasted billions on it, while the NHS/.gov advice is woeful, with Covid symptoms and advice from 2020 that are no longer applicable.

However, while people argue like spoiled fools on the web and march through the streets for their rights to be an unvaccinated idiot, our inept government is making ideological changes, it's not Covid that’s the problem, it’s them.

While also ignoring restrictions and having parties, they're pushing through boundary changes that strengthen their seats, police legislation that will criminalise freedom to protest in public (that was meant to be a pandemic restriction!).

Don't want to be ID'd, or have a vaccine passport, that's alright because while you rail at this, civil liberties are going and you can be a second class citizen instead; you soon won't be able to vote without ID. The Tories are also trying to take away judicial oversight of any legal rulings they disagree with! We have some hard choices to make, we should be doing it sensibly and need to be holding our government to account.

A proper GPS/app based secure vaccine passport/immunity tracking system that means you have to use it to go to venues, pubs, restaurants, out, abroad etc, is needed, or you can't go. We also need proper support for the low paid/casual hours workers to isolate without becoming destitute. This sort of solution would be able to track and control a variant like Omicron and keep infections under control.

But no, what about my civil liberties the vociferous mask haters all shout. Yet we get vaccinated if we want to to go to certain countries - or we cant go, no driving license - you cant drive, no visa - you can't go to the USA or half the world, want something cheap on the web - I'll give Google, Amazon, Apple more data than any Covid app would ever require.

With the idiots running the country and insular little island mentality that seems to pervade, far from Omicron being the Covid end game, its set to run on repeat, with the same type of problems every year, or worse. If we let it run riot through populations and mutate as much as it likes, we risk regular vaccine resistant strains developing.

We need to think about it globally and properly; e.g. vaccinate the world and come up with a way of actually tracking, neutralising and reducing it. The risk is otherwise we are stuck in this cycle of winter problems, as its not just the UK adding restrictions or imposing lockdowns, or maybe we should just let it mutate until there's a variant that's really rather deadly!

While we argue amongst ourselves, divide and conquer and ineptitude wins. A bigger Covid change is needed, and more collaborative working amongst countries, what we've got isn't working. Disappointingly, I don't see any of this happening any time soon...

 

[gpietersz]

The thing evidence is that Omicron is not leading to increased hospitalisations. Cases started risking rapidly almost too weeks ago and hospital admissions with covid have remained flat, at less than a quarter of the peak in January. In fact lower than in some weeks in Septmber or October.

The last official (i.e. from the government data site) R number estimate for England (for week to the 17th dec) has a top end of the range of 1.2 - that was middle of the range last December, and bottom end for most of June and July.

Vaccines work, and 50% of the population over 12 now have had boosters.

The data from SOuth Africa also shows Omicron is less dangerous, and even when people are hospitalised they have shorter stays.

On top of that treatments have improved a lot.

 

[gpietersz]

, it turned out my Astra Zeneca vaccinations had virtually no impact against Omicron.

Are you sure about that? I thought it had a reduced antibody response but t-cell responses were quite strong?

 

[IanSuth]

The thing evidence is that Omicron is not leading to increased hospitalisations. Cases started risking rapidly almost too weeks ago and hospital admissions with covid have remained flat, at less than a quarter of the peak in January. In fact lower than in some weeks in Septmber or October.

The last official (i.e. from the government data site) R number estimate for England (for week to the 17th dec) has a top end of the range of 1.2 - that was middle of the range last December, and bottom end for most of June and July.

Vaccines work, and 50% of the population over 12 now have had boosters.

The data from SOuth Africa also shows Omicron is less dangerous, and even when people are hospitalised they have shorter stays.

On top of that treatments have improved a lot.

I won't argue with your other points but your understanding of R is wrong (my son works in medical stats at Warwick and has done simulation runs on the Spi-M model)

an R of 1,2 means on average every infected person infect 1.2 more but it is not a time based measure. Delta and Omicron can both give rise to an R of 1.2 but if D does it in on average 4 days and O in 1.5 days O will lead to a far steeper gradient on the number of infections graph, so O would be worse for the country than D despite both showing an identical R on .gov websites & stats. The gov stats also have a roughly 3 week lag on their R data (from .gov) and if O is slower in leading to hospitalisation due to slower growth in deep lung (jury still out) then this lag will increase

How R and growth rates are estimated​

Individual modelling groups use a range of data to estimate growth rates and R values, including but not limited to:

• epidemiological data such as testing data, hospital admissions, ICU admissions and deaths – it generally takes up to 3 weeks for changes in the spread of the disease to be reflected in the estimates due to the time delay between initial infection and the need for hospital care

 

[Paul Carmen]

Are you sure about that? I thought it had a reduced antibody response but t-cell responses were quite strong?

No, that's the point no one is yet, are you sure?

I was referring to protection from actually catching the Omicron virus, which is now estimated at under 10% in my circumstances, rather than protection against severe illness/hospitalisations.

The initial data/tests suggest that, as you say, there should be some level of protection here, but this will only really be fully known as we get real world data. I was quite unwell for a few days and then off colour for about a week, but I'd certainly advocate for vaccines and will be getting the booster after 28 days have elapsed.

Your other posts show the pointlessness about this type of argument. The data doesn't show this, certainly not categorically and conclusively, yet. Many people are suggesting Omicron is less dangerous, some other experts are saying the opposite, and that the recent South African major Delta outbreak, young population and uptick in vaccinations are what's made it look like this.

With regards to hospitalisations, the initial data/testing suggests that the ability to protect from severe disease from Omicron is diminished by 10-15%, even when your vaccines are boosted, with a much bigger gap if you've had two doses 5 or 6 months ago. Again, whether this is true I don't know, but if there are a huge number of extra infections from Omicron, that would likely put a big strain on hospitals.

The problem is that the only really good accurate data is retrospective. Much of the modelling has looked ridiculous, and idiots from the government have bandied around numbers that suggest almost unlimited infection numbers, which just aren't possible.

However, there is a 7-14 day gap between infection, symptoms and serious illness/hospitalisation normally, which means London is the best barometer of the trajectory of the country at present. The data here looks worrying, as the numbers in hospital have gone up a lot in two weeks, with a 33% rise in the last week alone, albeit nowhere near last years peak: https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/coronavirus--covid-19--cases

As you say, there are certainly new anti virals, procedures and treatments coming on stream that reduce/limit hospital stays, so its not a clear picture at present. I hope that its less severe and that we get to the Omicron peak without lots of hospitalisations, restrictions and deaths.

The crux of my previous post is that to do the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome is the definition of madness. But, I'm not an epidemiologist or in government, so what I think isn't super relevant.

What I do know, is that this back and forth on here isn't achieving anything, at all, other than wasting my time. We are really busy work wise, so I'll leave this as my final post on Covid.

Have a safe and happy Christmas and a prosperous New Year everyone.

 

[NickGrogan]

“There’s this assumption that something more transmissible becomes less virulent. I don’t think that’s the position we should take,” says Balloux. Variants including Alpha, Beta and Delta have been linked to heightened rates of hospitalization and death — potentially because they grow to such high levels in people’s airways. The assertion that viruses evolve to become milder “is a bit of a myth”, says Rambaut. “The reality is far more complex.”

Francois Balloux, a computational biologist at University College London
Andrew Rambaut, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Edinburgh

Beyond Omicron - https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03619-8

With a global vaccination programme, we might be able to get it under control, but so far there has been very little sign of that happening.

Under the current system, Covid is going to be around for a very long time, if not permanently.

 

[gpietersz]

an R of 1,2 means on average every infected person infect 1.2 more but it is not a time based measur

The growth rate estimate for the week to the 17th is also has a top of its range that is equal to or below the bottom of the range for most of June or July.

The assertion that viruses evolve to become milder “is a bit of a myth”, says Rambaut. “The reality is far more complex.”

No but viruses transmitted the way Vovid is do: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evo-news/evolution-from-a-viruss-view/ usually do.

Have there ever been any counter example?

Of course its not necessarilly true that a particular more transmissible variant is milder. However, in the particular case of Omicron the evidence is that it is milder.

The data here looks worrying, as the numbers in hospital have gone up a lot in two weeks, with a 33% rise in the last week alone, albeit nowhere near last years peak: https://data.london.gov.uk/dataset/coronavirus--covid-19--cases

London is very anti-vaxxer. 68% of population over 12 have had atleast one vaccine dose, compared tp 89% nationally, and only 33% have had a third dose compared to 52% nationally. So Londoners are several times more likely to suffer severe illness than the UK average.

Not suprising, London and the SE have been anti-vaxxer for a long time. Merton has the lowest rate of childhood measles immunisation in the UK.

I was referring to protection from actually catching the Omicron virus, which is now estimated at under 10% in my circumstances, rather than protection against severe illness/hospitalisations

Protection against severe illness is well worth having!

A booster gives you much higher levels of anti-bodies, often similar to what two jabs gives against the original strain: https://www.bmj.com/content/375/bmj.n3079

 

[gpietersz]

The gov stats also have a roughly 3 week lag on their R data (from .gov) and if O is slower in leading to hospitalisation due to slower growth in deep lung (jury still out) then this lag will increase

The lag is a very good point. Here https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-r-value-and-growth-rate it says two to three weeks so the number for london on the 24th will be interesting.

I thought the effect of slower growth in the lung is that it is a lot less likely to cause severe illness?

 

[paulears]

I've got 30 people under me in pantomime - every day we are getting terrible stories from our other shows and some of my cast are really starting to worry - about their job, their health, their safety and I've had to spend some time today explaining to the younger ones some of the facts of covid life. They've got some very strange ideas of how the world works, and believe everything social media tells them. They don't have any other real news sources and the few that watch TV take the very spun stories they hear as gospel. The best advice I have passed on is very simple. We keep going until the Government tell us to stop. We don't expose ourselves to unnecessary risk and we avoid crowds. Booking a private area in a busy hospitality location they believe is safe, but don't consider the areas they have to go through to get there are probably more risky. A few really cannot envisage life without socialising - they really cannot. The older, perhaps wiser folk put their masks on, and go straight to their digs - shopping at quiet times with fewer queues, and avoiding the crowded places. The youngsters don't do this. Omichron as a variant is irrelevant - it's still a covid positive. All the jabs and boosters help - there's clear evidence they reduce the risks, but we shouldn't focus on Omichron as something different. it's binary. Negative or positive. Omichron positive is still positive. Scary the youngsters don't quite get this.

 

[MikeJ]

People in hospital with Covid in London have gone from 1000 at the start of the month to around 1800 now. Still, it's a much milder form of the disease so nothing to worry about.

Up another 100 today. London is the main location for Omicron, which is why I'm focussed on that. Based on the timing and symptoms, that's probably what I have.

 

[NickGrogan]

No but viruses transmitted the way Vovid is do: https://evolution.berkeley.edu/evo-news/evolution-from-a-viruss-view/ usually do.

Have there ever been any counter example?

Yes, in the two sentences at the beginning of the paragraph

“There’s this assumption that something more transmissible becomes less virulent. I don’t think that’s the position we should take,” says Balloux. Variants including Alpha, Beta and Delta have been linked to heightened rates of hospitalization and death — potentially because they grow to such high levels in people’s airways.

Viruses can evolve to be more deadly

Viruses can evolve to be more deadly

As the spread of coronavirus variants raise new public health questions, social media users are sharing misinformation about how viruses mutate.

apnews.com

Ebola is one of the examples they give, which is not exactly reassuring.

Dengue Fever has been known since at least the 18th Century and has grown more virulent in the last 50 years.

 

[paulears]

My wife works at the local hospital. Not remotely packed with covid cases but what they have got are unvaccinated younger people. I’m now firmly of the opinion vaccination should be compulsory.

 

[MikeJ]

While I appreciate there will be regional differences, that's not what the ONS data indicates.

Coronavirus (COVID-19) latest insights - Office for National Statistics

www.ons.gov.uk

(that's a couple of weeks old, but it would have to be an amazing swing to fit with the data your wife has offered)

 

[MikeJ]

However, scroll slightly down and you'll see the ONLY group where hospitalisations are higher than in the January spike are in the 5-14 bracket.

 

[simon field]

I've got 30 people under me in pantomime - every day we are getting terrible stories from our other shows and some of my cast are really starting to worry - about their job, their health, their safety and I've had to spend some time today explaining to the younger ones some of the facts of covid life. They've got some very strange ideas of how the world works, and believe everything social media tells them. They don't have any other real news sources and the few that watch TV take the very spun stories they hear as gospel. The best advice I have passed on is very simple. We keep going until the Government tell us to stop. We don't expose ourselves to unnecessary risk and we avoid crowds. Booking a private area in a busy hospitality location they believe is safe, but don't consider the areas they have to go through to get there are probably more risky. A few really cannot envisage life without socialising - they really cannot. The older, perhaps wiser folk put their masks on, and go straight to their digs - shopping at quiet times with fewer queues, and avoiding the crowded places. The youngsters don't do this. Omichron as a variant is irrelevant - it's still a covid positive. All the jabs and boosters help - there's clear evidence they reduce the risks, but we shouldn't focus on Omichron as something different. it's binary. Negative or positive. Omichron positive is still positive. Scary the youngsters don't quite get this.

When you read that back to yourself, don’t you think it sounds a bit…well…neurotic?

 

[simon field]

My wife works at the local hospital. Not remotely packed with covid cases but what they have got are unvaccinated younger people. I’m now firmly of the opinion vaccination should be compulsory.

Should it be compulsory even if you’ve recently had actual Covid?

And if so, why?

 

[simon field]

Our local press does things like:

‘LOCAL ICU CASES UP BY 50%’

From 2, all the way up to 4.

 

[MikeJ]

Should it be compulsory even if you’ve recently had actual Covid?

And if so, why?

I'm against compulsory vaccinations, but am more than happy to limit the unvaccinated's ability to access pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas etc. There are systems to show options for immunity, rather than just vaccination which would include those that have recovered from Covid.

Within a week I'll be triple jabbed and have recovered (hopefully). I'm expecting a free jetpack.

 

[Ian J]

I've got 30 people under me in pantomime

Wow that must be one huge panto horse

 

[Ian J]

I'm against compulsory vaccinations, but am more than happy to limit the unvaccinated's ability to access pubs, restaurants, theatres, cinemas etc.

If people are going to be stopped from going to football matches unless fully vaccinated then I think that the same should apply to the footballers themselves and if they aren't vaccinated then they can't play

 

[MikeJ]

If people are going to be stopped from going to football matches unless fully vaccinated then I think that the same should apply to the footballers themselves and if they aren't vaccinated then they can't play

Don't have an issue with that at all.

Though there is a slight difference. In crowds, you could be putting at risk complete strangers. On a pitch, there's your teammates and the opposition. You can make sure everyone is tested regularly, so it's much more easy to control infections.