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Changes to UKBF

Do you like the plans for the UKBF overall?

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multilingual said:
If the forum continues its drift out towards being a chat room, then the business credibility will be lost for good.
Click to expand...

What about adding a chat room to the forum?
 
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I have browsed this forum everyday for over two years, and have contributed a little in this time.

I can't see how charging for this forum will improve the value for its members.

You may make money in the short while but gradually the member base will dwindle.. I have no doubt about that.
 
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That's for certain. People won't want to pay for something that doesn't really benefit them, to an extent. Most of the stuff on here ends up in debates that drag on forever.

Liam
 
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If you are offering a membership service then you may effectively exclude those under 16, who may not have access to a credit/debit card.

With no disrespect to Ozzy, I am assuming he is generating new business from this forum just like many of us. It is us that create the content and quality advice.

Charging a fee, no matter how much, is going to put people off, not because of the amount but because of the 'hassle' to make the transaction.

Charging a fee will also change the ethos of UKBF and possibly become like Ecademy, where there is more 'hard selling'

I am all for a Gold Member section where you can pay X amount a year with benefits to include a button advert, etc. Must have say 500 posts etc - it may give others the incentive to participate more.

I would seriously consider 'sponsoring' a forum and perhaps allocate a moderator to each forum. We 'sponsor' a few forums on disability discrimination/employment and give legal advice etc and we have moderator control on one of them - lessens the burden
 
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Im with cjd on this one charging would be commercial suicide, and I defiantly agree with new members being fare from encourage to join, I mean the welcome I got was most defiantly less than warm even if my first post was not as expected.

I would say that most content driven sites today generate revenue by allowing users to pay for additional services and extras. There are tons of ways that you can generate revenue without charging for membership.

The content is what keeps this site alive, if you start charging there are a 101 other forums out there and they will just become the UKBF.

I have visited a number of business sites and this one seems by fare is one of or is the most popular, you start charging and that’ll soon change.
 
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cjd said:
I think you would be committing commercial suicide if you attempted to charge for membership.

I can tell you immediately what will happen.

1. The few dozen regular members and contributors who have made friends here and become 'addicted' (for want of a better word :-)) will pay the fees.

2. irregular visitors will not pay and drift to other sites where they can contribute for free.

3. A very tiny % of new visitors will join (a fraction of 1%). This is because the difference between FREE and any charge at all is almost infinite (remember Freeserve). As several people have pointed out, a new visitor is highly unlikely to pay.

4. You will provide an opening for your competitors who will mop up the new customers you frighten off.

5. You will generate hardly any cash and as your click throughs from declining membership reduce, you will loose ad revenue

There are hardly any sites on the internet able to sustain a subscription model for content, let alone a forum - it's a pig of a thing to crack.

You would be better served looking for business sponsors and advertisers and concentrating on getting a huge number of 'qualified' eyeballs in here to attract them.
Click to expand...
I was just about to write a long drawn out post but cjd saved my fingers :lol:

Ozzy, don't do it. CJD has hit the nail on the head with the take up and you will lose membership signups as well as existing members.

You mentioned that the take up on advertising has been slow, you kindly sent over the rate card for advertising and for the price you were looking to charge I could have advertised on webhostingtalk.com which has literally millions of page views per month for a tenth of the cost :(

I'm not being tight, I'm being practical. Why pay here when there are many other business forums that don't charge?

Rethink your advertising strategy and gain the extra revenue from there..
 
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One thing I'd like is something to encourage people to check on whether their question has already been answered rather than people coming on and asking the same questions all the time

A 'rate thread' feature also sounds interesting, if it would encourage new members to browse around useful/interest existing content

And I think a free trial membership or say one free forum for e.g. introductions might be an idea - I'd want to encourage start-ups to come here.

Or how about getting points for the number of posts you make which gives you some kind of bonus or discount?

You've also encouraged us, Ozzy, to link to the forums (our new website will contain a useful links page including one to this site), what do we get in return if we are helping your bottom line?

Generally, though, I've got no problem with paying something on a par with other business club memberships - £2.50 per month would be fine.
 
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All very interesting and valid points, which at the end of the day is why I asked on here rather than just "do it" :)

I don't have a answer to a "what next" question, but some thoughts for you all.

Average costs for this forum are;
Software maintenance/updates : £150 per month
Online advertising (PPC/Banners) : £1,000 per month
Offline advertising (magazines/flyers) : £300 per month
Hosting : £50 approx per month
Basically these forums cost me around £1,500 per month to keep them running and to keep the turnover of new members coming.

That is just to keep the forum running as it is now, and does not include the costs for implementing any changes and updates that the members ask for...such as the members business directory for example.

My "real" businesses actually earns practically zero revenue from these forums, because all my customers are already registered companies and then come to these forums after they have been formed. I pick up about 1 customer a month from these forums that earns me about £15 per month profit. You may notice the shortfall there ;)

Why do I keep doing this when it is costing me so much money...because I think its a brilliant resource and has some great untapped potential still to be released. What that is, I don't know just yet.
What I do know is that these forums are not commercially viable to keep open unless the costs are covered.

Advertising is the most obvious route which would bring in the ultimate revenue. I also believe that leaving the free part of the forums as there are (almost) but removing some of the features that are used by spammers will add value to the forums by removing the attraction by those hit-and-run spam posters without taking anything away from the free area (for those wanting to seek advice).
I think some of you may have misunderstood my intention for the paid area - it is not to shut down and alienate the free area as that can remain pretty much as is, but it is to add a more "elite" club area where those can also network outside the free public area, have increased features (like sigs, pm, directory listing).
I am using webmasterworld.com as an example on this basis, the free area is very lively and a valuable resource of information. For paid members you get the usual extra title and functionality, plus access to one extra private forum where "insider" search engine marketing information and reports are made available which gives extra value to those in that industry and are paid members of that forum.

Still not saying its right, but I want to discuss this with you guys and hopefully at the end of this thread we have a plan for a forum that is both financially viable and also the perfect place and resource for you all to network and get business support online.
 
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I think you should advertise this thread in the rest of the forum.

There have been 27 votes cast so far. With 16 for your "elite club" idea.

The numbers just don't add up. You are going to have a very exclusive club if these numbers are anything to go by.

:)
 
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Hi Ozzy

I see where you are coming from with this and think that for the small fee tht you would be asking for we would all benefit from a better forum.

Of course its never easy to get people to pay to join but if you offer them the chance to pay monthly then it will appeal more to people who are unsure.

Jacqui':D'
 
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I want to pay yearly, I don't want to take the chance of forgetting to pay :lol:

I've a very bad memory :D

Jayne
 
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I see the dilemma but I think your business model is broken.

The forums are not costing you £1500 per month to run, they are costing you £200 per month.

On top of that you have optionally chosen to spend another £1300 on advertising. Most forums grow organically by word of mouth - that's the only way they can afford to.

You are essentially running at a loss in order to gain more members but the revenue generated per member approximates to zero and I don't believe that you are big enough yet to charge membership.

Personally I think you should stop advertising and spend any spare cash introducing new functionality to the site whilst using your members to promote your site through referral - that's how I got here.

Your example of webmaster.com is interesting but it looks enormous and does not carry adverts. Have you any idea how many members it has, it appears to have 6 staff!

ps - how effective is your advertising? How many new people does it generate and are they here 3 months later?
 
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Ozzy said:
Average costs for this forum are;
Software maintenance/updates : £150 per month
Online advertising (PPC/Banners) : £1,000 per month
Offline advertising (magazines/flyers) : £300 per month
Hosting : £50 approx per month
Basically these forums cost me around £1,500 per month to keep them running and to keep the turnover of new members coming.

That is just to keep the forum running as it is now, and does not include the costs for implementing any changes and updates that the members ask for...such as the members business directory for example.
Click to expand...

Forgive my ignorance, but I find the costs rather high for a forum. PHPBB is free I guess, and does the upgrading actually cost? We have not see much updating on here.

£1000 to advertise may be rather high but then again I don't know the levels of traffic the forum is getting. Or is this the expense you generate for advertising on other sites? If so, what is the income to meet the costs?

Hosting at £50/month - havent checked who you are hosting with but would it not be better to host with Matrixx or another member to keep costs down? Not sure if it reasonable because this depends on your bandwidths

I am all for the idea similar to 'Ecademy Blackstar' - I suggest getting a handful of the regulars to become members and give it a trial. I would be happy to pay a fee for this.
 
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I don't think you can count the advertising into the cost of running the forum (after all, that is totally up to you, could be 1k could be 10k), if you are spending 1k per month, then i would sugest looking elsewhere because the number of new signups per month does not justify that, especially when you consider that only 103 members have made more than 100 posts......

It is the members that make the forums worthwhile visiting, no matter how good you think they are if the top 50 posters stopped posting tomorrow the forums would be empty.

Have a membership, make it £2 - 3 per month, but make it "additional value" that the members get ("Gold member" username, able to use signature, add a members only forum for chit chat) but do not stop non paying members from reading the forums that are currently available.
 
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Agree with Philip but there should be 'privileges' for long-standing members because they have to be rewarded one way or another for visiting the forum and keeping it alive, which is why I suggested a button advert.

In circumstances like this, one has to give in order to take.

This can easily be put on trial...

CJD makes some good points and I found the figures to be out of proportion for a forum. If you run Google Adwords, I suggest this is stopped - too expensive for a FREE forum!

Functionality is the key to a successful forum. I like the style used by youngentreprenuer.com and they even upload quicker than this forum, but I am patient!

http://www.accessifyforum.com is a good site also, uploads very quick, soft colour theme etc. I think UKBF should use vBulletin as the most advanced forum to date.
 
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As handsongroup has pointed out, you can cut yearly costs dramatically by getting cutting back on advertising and finding a better host.

You should really try to encourage the people on the forum to refer their business friends to the forum, you certainly needn't spend onwards of a grand on advertising a month!

Try streamlinenet for hosting. Best deal around (main points why I use it are yearly rather than monthly fee - which is really low - and unlimited bandwidth).
 
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Hi Guys,
The hosting was an "approx" value based on costs that would be charged by a reasonable host for the traffic and resources it uses, but it piggy backs on the resources used by Quick.

The advertising I do is;
Pay-per-click on Google and Overture.
Postcard flyers handed out at networking events around my area and exhibitions.
Banner adverts on other websites.
Mailshot and newsletter adverts with organisations such as smallbusiness.co.uk and bytestart.co.uk

I agree that yes I could allow the forums to grow organically, but that is what was done before and the forums did not grow. Remember these forums are 3 years old, and for the first 2 years they were left to "grow organically" and nothing happened. Those who have been around for a while may remember what they were like back then. Only a handful of members and they were very quiet.
Since I took the forums over I invested in a redesign and high profile advertising, and the forums are now nothing like what they were before. Expecting forums to grow organically does not work, and these forums are evidence to that. 2 Years no advertising and no growth, the last year advertised and now they are the busiest forums that I know of.

Granted not every sign up sticks around, but that is to be expected.

Another thought...
If I did not spend the money on advertising and these forums were not anywhere near as busy as they are now, would half you guys still be here using them?


The development costs...
phpBB release security updates almost monthly, I have a freelance developer who applies these security patches as and when they are released. Also, when things like peoples logins stop working again I need him to come in and fix the problem.
 
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re the phpBB dev costs. Ozzy is spot on - with phpBB you HAVE to stay on top of the updates of you get hax0r3d.

Re the advertising costs - wow! That's a lot. If you make the forums crawlable (by eliminating querystrings) then you'll get a lot of natural traffic that doesn't cost a dime (or a penny)
 
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I actually found you via a Google search. I initially typed in "business forums" and went to Teneric, and then "uk business forums" and you're #1, although you also advertise that term on AdWords. That's a fair amount of money saved each month. I also feel that your phpBB security updates could be caried out by someone, like myself (yes, that was a kind offer) to save the requirement of the fee each month.
 
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I first found these forums a couple of months ago searching something along the lines of "business forum". I'm sure you'll still get a small flow of new members from good search engine positioning.
 
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Hands up - who found this forum through a paid for link?

(I was recommended from another forum - I think fsb, as it's so godawful it was linked as a best practice model).

btw - don't get depressed about this Ozzy, you've got a damn fine site here.... sites reach a critical mass - it can take years but all of a sudden when you've built up a head of steam and a few thousand members they grow exponentially.....it's the 'takes years' bit that no-one ever understands.
 
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I found it by accident on google, I was looking for site that sold businesses :lol:

This was my first ever forum, didn't even know there were anything like this :D

Jayne
 
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I suppose its time to put my perspective on this thread after reading everyone elses.

The simple problem is that it costs money to maintain these forums, even if you take out amounts for some online and offline marketing.

Really these costs need to be covered somehow.

So option one is that Ozzy decides to cut his losses and stop the forums or option two is that he starts charging and (in several peoples scenarios) people refuse to pay and leave the forums.

Seems to me that in either scenario these forums close down. (And before anyone jumps on that comment I know it is a simplistic model that I have outlined)

Many people come on here for the social aspect as much as anything else but many people have obtained the benefits of either

Easily getting information which they would have to have paid for either directly or in time searching for it

or benefited from people who have provided work done for them for little or no cost

or gained benefits by getting business directly through the forums.

In whatever way it is looked at the benefits most gain above,must surely outweigh what is being proposed i.e a fairly nominal cost which I believe would really equate to advertising the members services at still a nominal cost as advertising on paid directories is often between £50 and £250 per year.

I'll now stand back and wait for the rush

:D
 
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I'm happy as long as I can pay once a year...how many times do I have to say it :roll:

Money well spent I say. If it wasn't for this forum, I would not be up to my second web business, if you remember I didn't know what a host was when I joined. I even know a little bit of techy stuff now (saying that loosely) :lol:

So I think the people running it, shouldn't be out of pocket.

Jayne :D
 
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Alpha makes a fair point BUT this forum will be compared with other forums if a charging structure is implemented. The regulars have no doubts about its value and would support the cause hence my suggestion for a 'privilege' package for those who attain a certain level and gain certain benefits. Its the newcomers that will be deterred if a blanket charge is made.

You could create a section on the site i.e. sidebar, listing all the 'platinum' members who have paid, say £100/year and they have a button (same size as those to the left) placed on the right or somewhere prominent.

I would also strongly recommend reducing the benefits that FREE members get now, namely:

1. Signature
2. Avatar
3. PM facility
4. Email

And only give FREE members the facility to post/reply. You could offer a tier system where a user pays £10/year to have the 4 privileges above.

I am pretty much certain this will work because you will have Free members, £10/year members and 'Platinum' members, with the latter two providing an income stream. The above will also prevent spamming members.

You could even add a 'blog' section which allows only the 'platinum' members to create a blog and other paid-up members can reply. Free members cannot. This will alone generate more traffic. If I was platinum I would be happy to write a good article relating to legal issues etc and create a debate.

Failing the above, the only option left would be to put the forum under ownership/management of a consortium, which includes key people with key skills to manage the forum and the cost is then evened out.
 
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I think Jonathon makes some good points. This forum is different from almost any other I know in that a large majority of members ultimately want to ‘sell’ something to other members. Others seek opinions on their websites etc. Either way they want to make themselves ‘known’ to other forum members.

You could make this forum free for all but do not give ‘free’ users the ability to PM or more importantly post their URL or E-Mail address in the signature OR in the body of the text.

You could also run a high quality parallel members directory paid for by subscription. Directory members would also get the right to display avatars and signatures in the forum.

Why not ‘sponsor’ each section of the forum and directory with a single advertisement sold by an ebay type auction. Can you imagine how many bids you would get for the ‘web design’ section?

IMHO if you take this approach I think you would get a surprisingly high number of ‘conversions’, the site would continue to grow and you would receive a steady revenue stream.
 
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Just to add to what I said above:

Friends Reunited have a similar model, you can look but you can’t get in touch with anybody until you pay.

What I am suggesting is basically the opposite. You can look but nobody can get in touch with you until you pay.

If you can prevent ‘free’ members from posting URL’s in the body of the message as well as the signature you will also reduce the problem of people who register, make one ‘spammy’ post and disappear.

I also agree that removing the query strings will make a huge difference to the amount of search engine referrals you get.
 
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Hi Guys,
This is great as your feedback is helping me get a steer on what you guys would like to see, would be happy to see, and means I can look at implementing a solution that makes these forums sustainable.

(yes Jayne and all, annual payments with a discount seems perfectly fine with me).

Jonathan's post has pulled some of my original thoughts and others together into what I think is a good idea. Any objections?
 
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No objections as long as you leave the buttons alone, it took ages for me to learn where all the buttons are, don't want to start again :D

And I like the blue colour too, it's easy on the eyes. Too many bright colours or green hurts my eyes, this is why I like this forum, it doesn't give me headache :D

Jayne
 
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Yep, I'd have no objections to the stuff Jon outlined.

I think the important thing is to keep this as a very useful free resource - and at the same time making it even more useful/beneficial as a paid for resource.

Add, don't subtract (apart from PM functionality. etc)
 
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And who would keep an eye on things when you lot are busy Rob :lol:

Do you really want me to stop posting, I can if you want me to.

Jayne :D
 
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