If numbers don’t go up.

[Interestedobserver]

The Swedes are not locked down the way we are, but they put a lot of effort into protecting the most vulnerable (old people's homes, for example) which is critical.

Their aim is for the general population to get herd immunity while shielding the most vulnerable and flattening the curve enough that hospitals do not get overwhelmed.

There are simply too many unknowns to know what will happen. It is quite possible it will burn out soon: https://news.sky.com/story/coronavi...ancing-measures-ex-who-official-says-11967018

As mentioned above the Swedes have the highest death rate in the world per capita now and as a result their neighbours won't open borders with them

Their strategy has failed and the criticism increases against them on a daily basis

Just saying......

 

[Davek0974]

Following the mass protests/riots in the US and the mass protests/beach visits in the UK if we do NOT see a massive spike in about 2 weeks then I can only guess that...

1 - we are over it and the virus has run its course or has mutated into a safe/inert strain
or
2 - it was never as bad as the media hyped it up to be in the 1st place

I am hoping for option 1 as 2 doesn't bear thinking about.

The mass protests are simply public beta-testing

 

[fisicx]

Neither 1 or 2 are viable.

A virus doesn't mutate into a safe strain. What happens is people build up immunity either through a vaccination or by becoming infected.

At the beginning nobody know how deadly the virus was. Lockdown and other measures were not about saving lives, they were simply to stop the health system being overloaded. People are still dying and will continue to die from the virus for a long time.

Those who went to the beach were those less likely to get very ill. They may all be infecting each other but will never know.

 

[Aniela]

Those who went to the beach were those less likely to get very ill. They may all be infecting each other but will never know.

That's a very important thing to consider.

Young to middle age people are not at a high risk of dying. That's what the figures point to at present anyway.

If we had thousands of elderly people going to the beach, it would be another topic but that didn't appear to be the case.

 

[fisicx]

If we had thousands of elderly people going to the beach, it would be another topic but that didn't appear to be the case.

All of the elderly I know are still very cautious. Equally so a lot of those who are at risk.

Consider the numbers going to the beach or wherever might be hundreds of thousands but that's only a small fraction of the population. The majority are still staying at home.

 

[MOIC]

How many of those that went to the beach and protests went home and mixed with their elderly or vulnerable friends or relatives?

It's not about the young not dying, it's about who can pass the infection to the old and vulnerable.

 

[Davek0974]

One thing you have all missed though is that the thousands of you/middle agers going to the beach and protesting will go home and possibly spread it to their parents, grand parents, babies etc. They may be a small portion of the population but multiply by the spread factor and.......

Of course if nothing happens then......

 

[Aniela]

How many of those that went to the beach and protests went home and mixed with their elderly or vulnerable friends or relatives?

It's not about the young not dying, it's about who can pass the infection to the old and vulnerable.

I'd say the vast majority of people are cautious when it comes to elderly/vulnerable people.

 

[fisicx]

How many of those that went to the beach and protests went home and mixed with their elderly or vulnerable friends or relatives?

I'd suggest a low percentage. Most elderly and vulnerable are isolating. Those caring for them will not have been protesting or on the beach.

 

[MOIC]

Any %, whether under or over 5% - 10% is reckless.

Not wearing masks too - it simply would not be allowed in other major European countries.

As I said Reckless.

But hey, they're young and want their freedom. . . . . .as well as ignorance.

 

[MBE2017]

Saw a report in the last day or so where from the Gov testing, they “think” possibly up to 10% of the UK population have had the virus now, which still leaves up to 90% who might not.

Ignoring the reports, back to real facts, saw Kate Galloway talking about her husbands fight with Covid, he is a few years younger than myself, was relatively fit, is now free from the virus but it sounds like it has left him broken.

Thousands of similar unknown stories around the world I’m sure. The lockdown might be easing, but the threat is still very real.

 

[fisicx]

Not wearing masks too - it simply would not be allowed in other major European countries.

Not all European countries require masks. And those that do don't require then all the time.

My children live in Germany and they only need masks on public transport and when shopping. They don't have to wear them outdoors or when meeting others outside.

 

[Aniela]

Any %, whether under or over 5% - 10% is reckless.

Not wearing masks too - it simply would not be allowed in other major European countries.

As I said Reckless.

But hey, they're young and want their freedom. . . . . .as well as ignorance.

There is a fine line between reckless and just living life and accepting some risk.

Where do you cross the line between life and reckless?

Should we turn all of our food into soup in case we choke while eating? Should we ban cars because driving has a small percentage of crashing and dying?

At a certain point people have to be allowed to do certain things that are 'reckless' because unfortunately it's just life.

 

[MOIC]

Germany needs them in enclosed spaces. Most wear them when in public as they understand the ease of catching and giving the infection.

Sometimes you do what you know protects you and others, not what a (weak) government advises you.

 

[MOIC]

Should we turn all of our food into soup in case we choke while eating? Should we ban cars because driving has a small percentage of crashing and dying?

Go and spend an hour in a COVID ward. Your analogies unfortunately are not valid.

At a certain point people have to be allowed to do certain things that are 'reckless' because unfortunately it's just life.

Not when it potentially kills people that you infect from your recklessness.

We see life differently.

The 'As long as I'm OK' attitude is fine for some, not for others.

 

[Aniela]

Go and spend an hour in a COVID ward. Your analogies unfortunately are not valid.


Not when it potentially kills people that you infect from your recklessness.

We see life differently.

The 'As long as I'm OK' attitude is fine for some, not for others.

The whole COVID ward thing is a pointless thing to pull up.

You go into an intensive care ward in a UK hospital on a normal week and there's people that are 5 minutes away from death after falling off ladders, being hit by cars, falling down the stairs and breaking their necks etc. Intensive care wards are normally struggling for beds regardless of COVID.

That's why the lockdown was put in place in the UK; because our hospitals can't handle large amounts of critical care patients at the best of times. Let alone anything extra from something like COVID.

 

[MOIC]

The whole COVID ward thing is a pointless thing to pull up.

You go into an intensive care ward in a UK hospital on a normal week and there's people that are 5 minutes away from death after falling off ladders, being hit by cars, falling down the stairs and breaking their necks etc. Intensive care wards are normally struggling for beds regardless of COVID.

Sheer ignorance (which I expect from you). You simply do not realise how people are dying from COVID. Speak to a doctor and you'll soon realise. This has nothing to do with people dying from other issues. The fact is that COVID patients occupying ICU's means less room for other patients.

Keep posting, it will give readers more chance to see my signature link.

 

[Aniela]

Sheer ignorance (which I expect from you). You simply do not realise how people are dying from COVID. Speak to a doctor and you'll soon realise. This has nothing to do with people dying from other issues. The fact is that COVID patients occupying ICU's means less room for other patients.

Keep posting, it will give readers more chance to see my signature link.

I know exactly how people are dying from COVID.

What do you suggest? We stay in lockdown and no-one is allowed anywhere apart to get food until we get a vaccine?

Because until that point, it will always be 'reckless' to go out.

All I'm saying is that at a certain point, you have to allow some risk; at each persons own peril.

Your opinion is not realistic to how life works.

 

[MOIC]

Risk - congregate like sardines on a beach . . . . .without masks?

Risk - congregate like sardines on a protest march . . . without masks?

I never mentioned lockdown.

Common sense precautions . . . .safe social distancing . . . . .wear masks if likely to be in close proximity to others.

Common sense is what it needs.

Not a world you live in.

 

[Aniela]

Risk - congregate like sardines on a beach . . . . .without masks?

Risk - congregate like sardines on a protest march . . . without masks?

I never mentioned lockdown.

Common sense precautions . . . .safe social distancing . . . . .wear masks if likely to be in close proximity to others.

Common sense is what it needs.

Not a world you live in.

Your talking about a very small percentage of the population doing it, which is always going to happen regardless.

That's just life, unfortunately.

There will always be people who don't consider risk, especially when it's an invisible risk. The invisible risk is the biggest danger.

We see that with things like smoking. Why people start smoking these days is beyond me; but it's an invisible risk until you get cancer.

 

[Stas Lawicki]

The difficulty I have with CV is that affects people in different ways. This is why I think people flouting the rules to be wholly inconsiderate and selfish - 'it wont affect me, I don't give a stuff about lockdown'.

I have a dear Aunt who lives alone. I am desperate to see her and whilst I have no particular concerns of me contracting it, I am not prepared to risk my Aunt catching it, nor indeed am I happy that I could be spreading the virus to others who are at risk.

If using a ladder, not eating soup or perhaps drinking too much booze put many others at risk, we would all be against it (not disregarding those that have to deal with the consequences, but focusing instead of others suffering the same problem as a direct result of another's actions and being 'infected' with the same thing- i think this makes sense?!).

If people are intent on spreading it so a) others get ill, b) it uses up scarce resources, I think we should all be condemning them.

 

[MOIC]

@Aniela

Smoking?? - Not sure what that has got to do with COVID.

Ok, so its fine for some people to be reckless. A few thousand, tens of thousands . . . .

Did you hear of the outbreak in S Korea where 1 person with the virus infected hundreds in a nightclub? How many did those infected then infect . . . . .thats where you get the R number.

Reckless, but you're fine with it. Let it happen on a daily basis.

 

[Aniela]

Smoking?? - Not sure what that has got to do with COVID.

Ok, so its fine for some people to be reckless. A few thousand, tens of thousands . . . .

Did you hear of the outbreak in S Korea where 1 person with the virus infected hundreds in a nightclub? How many did those infected then infect . . . . .thats where you get the R number.

Reckless, but you're fine with it. Let it happen on a daily basis.

There will always be reckless people. That's not going away unfortunately.

What do you think should be done? Because common sense is not common and never will be. People are humans.

When you have an invisible risk, the common sense is lowered even further. That's why it's pretty much impossible not to catch a cold in the UK, because people don't have common sense and spread it everywhere.

 

[MOIC]

@Aniela

No problem, you live in a world devoid of common sense and encourage recklessness as it doesn't affect you.

You already live in your own world, which is whiter than white, we all know that.

Stay safe, make sure your white doesn't change to grey.

 

[Aniela]

@Aniela

No problem, you live in a world devoid of common sense and encourage recklessness as it doesn't affect you.

You already live in your own world, which is whiter than white, we all know that.

Stay safe, make sure your white doesn't change to grey.

What are you talking about? What you're saying doesn't even make sense. I encourage recklessness but live in my own world that is whiter than white? Doesn't add up.

I'm not encouraging it.

I'm quite the opposite. I don't personally think anyone should go out if they don't need to and if they do, a packed beach is the last place you should go.

I'm just saying recklessness is always going to happen and common sense isn't common... you can never stop that. That's life.

You live in China, you should know this. I love China but let's be honest, China is not known for it's health and safety concerns and amazing working conditions.

Lack of common sense and recklessness is rife across the world.

 

[MOIC]

@Aniela

What has China got to do with this conversation of thousands going on the beach or on protests?

I'll tell you this - Generally, the Chinese public have shown more common sense than the UK public. They understand how COVID can be infected and take adequate 'common sense' precautions.

Thousands on beaches and at protests without masks, is reckless, pure and simple.

But that's to be expected in your world.

 

[gpietersz]

Smoking?? - Not sure what that has got to do with COVID.

I do not think that is what she meant, but the stats show that smoking is protective against covid (OK, so you just get lung cancer instead) and there is at least one study investigating it.

 

[Aniela]

@Aniela

What has China got to do with this conversation of thousands going on the beach or on protests?

I'll tell you this - Generally, the Chinese public have shown more common sense than the UK public. They understand how COVID can be infected and take adequate 'common sense' precautions.

Thousands on beaches and at protests without masks, is reckless, pure and simple.

But that's to be expected in your world.

That's impossible to say. It's widely considered across the world that the COVID numbers provided by china are false, so there's no data to back up what you think.

You may be right, you may be wrong. We may never know.

 

[MOIC]

I do not think that is what she meant, but the stats show that smoking is protective against covid

I don't think 'she' needs you to defend 'her'. She can manage fine.

Smoking protective against COVID? What stats are these?

Reports I've seen indicate that smokers are more likely to die of COVID, as are males.

 

[MOIC]

It's widely considered across the world that the COVID numbers provided by china are false, so there's no data to back up what you think.

I'm not referring to the numbers provided by China. We ALL know they are false.

I'm referring to how the general public live their life since COVID and the precautions they take.

You should be a politician . . . . . .bring up what suits you.

 

[Aniela]

I'm not referring to the numbers provided by China. We ALL know they are false.

I'm referring to how the general public live their life since COVID and the precautions they take.

You should be a politician . . . . . .bring up what suits you.

So they only do that since COVID? China is not know for it's good hygiene, compared to the UK at least.

China does not have common sense when it comes to hygiene. (Just like the UK at times but China is on a whole other level.)

 

[Interestedobserver]

Following the mass protests/riots in the US and the mass protests/beach visits in the UK if we do NOT see a massive spike in about 2 weeks then I can only guess that...

1 - we are over it and the virus has run its course or has mutated into a safe/inert strain
or
2 - it was never as bad as the media hyped it up to be in the 1st place

I am hoping for option 1 as 2 doesn't bear thinking about.

The mass protests are simply public beta-testing

I've read that people are 17 to 20 times more likely to catch Covid indoors than outdoors

Hence why most of the things we are allowed to do right now tend to be outdoors

Had a really interesting chat with a friend of mine who is an assistant teacher last night

She starts back on Monday

She's just received her timetable

Her entire week is assisting classes ALL of which are outside (they have 3 different areas of the school where the kids can do activities or learn outside)

We are ok whilst its the summer

These mass protests we are probably ok whilst they are outside

These sardines breaking rules on the beach - we may get away with it outside

Once the same things happen anywhere indoors we are in trouble

That's why the government only want you to meet your family in a park etc

They don't want you anywhere near a building you can go inside with them

And that's just two people at 2 metres

Doing stuff inside together is miles off happening as will take us over that R1 number very quickly

 

[MOIC]

So they only do that since COVID? China is not know for it's good hygiene, compared to the UK at least.

China does not have common sense when it comes to hygiene. (Just like the UK at times but China is on a whole other level.)

Tell us something we don't know, not the bleeding obvious to forward your argument of what happens in UK.

A politician.

 

[Aniela]

Tell us something we don't know, not the bleeding obvious to forward your argument of what happens in UK.

A politician.

Someone who is failing with their argument always brings politics into it or throws the word 'politician' around. An easy way out.

Can you not have a discussion without bringing something like that up? I'm just pointing out the flaws in what you're saying.

 

[MOIC]

@Aniela

It's hard having a discussion with someone that brings up red herrings and avoids the point of the topic.

People who went to the beach and protests as well as without wearing masks, because they think they're immune and they won't catch the virus, are both selfish as well as ignorant to the facts.

Period.

Go and have an argument with yourself in a mirror.

 

[Aniela]

@Aniela

It's hard having a discussion with someone that brings up red herrings and avoids the point of the topic.

People who went to the beach and protests as well as without wearing masks, because they think they're immune and they won't catch the virus, are both selfish as well as ignorant to the facts.

Period.

Go and have an argument with yourself in a mirror.

Ignorant to what facts?

People can go on the beach all the want. If they're not socially distancing and then going back home to an vulnerable person, then yes, they are being selfish.

The amount of people going onto the beaches is extremely small. I would bet the people going onto the beaches, who aren't socially distancing and then going back to someone vulnerable is minuscule.

A number not worth even arguing about; as you're always going to have some truly stupid people.

If people are going to the beach and socially distancing, they're not selfish. The evidence states that being outside is actually safer; it's just the social distancing part that is the problem.

 

[MOIC]

As I said.

Go and argue with a mirror.

You stick with your assumed figures.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

The amount of people going onto the beaches is extremely small.

I am familiar with the crowded beaches we get in Cornwall and the west country in the height of the summer holidays. I drove past a local beach last week and the car park was overflowing onto the local roads in a way I never see in summer. The beach itself was packed. When the tide came in later those people could not have kept 2 metres apart. I see the photographs on the news, don't you?

 

[Stas Lawicki]

I've read that people are 17 to 20 times more likely to catch Covid indoors than outdoors

Hence why most of the things we are allowed to do right now tend to be outdoors

Had a really interesting chat with a friend of mine who is an assistant teacher last night

She starts back on Monday

She's just received her timetable

Her entire week is assisting classes ALL of which are outside (they have 3 different areas of the school where the kids can do activities or learn outside)

We are ok whilst its the summer

These mass protests we are probably ok whilst they are outside

These sardines breaking rules on the beach - we may get away with it outside

Once the same things happen anywhere indoors we are in trouble

That's why the government only want you to meet your family in a park etc

They don't want you anywhere near a building you can go inside with them

And that's just two people at 2 metres

Doing stuff inside together is miles off happening as will take us over that R1 number very quickly

Yes, i've seen the same, the problem is transfer en-route and cross contamination. Think of all the petrol pumps that have been used, any shops en-route, parking meters, hand rails, gates, benches, sharing of stuff (cups, bottles, etc), all the rubbish left behind for others to clear up. Then consider a lot would have been car sharing - contaminate the cabin of a car and anybody getting in and out up to a few hours later use the same seats, belts - not to mention the contaminated air and surfaces in a sealed box 5 people are driving around in. The million and 1 points of contamination when leaving ones pit to get to the beach and back is huge. Just being outside isn't the concern (for me, anyway). This is to say nothing of the idiots who get drunk or tombstone off cliffs who then endanger rescue services and indeed risk spreading the virus further by enforcing human contact.

I might sound like a crack pot but there is a bit more to it than some realise...

 

[gpietersz]

I see the photographs on the news, don't you?

A lot of the photos are taken from a distance with a telephoto lens to make people look more crowded together than they actually are.

As you have seen it yourself, that is different.

I think lockdown is well and truly dead. Compare the treatment of current protests with what the police did just a few weeks ago to much smaller protests which were successfully dispersed. I do not think anyone is even trying to enforce distancing any more.