Longer Sunday hours & trading

[Philip Hoyle]

Never understood why the sunday trading restrictions don't apply to Scotland. I was amazed a few years ago when I was holidaying in Scotland to find a retail park in full swing at 6pm on a Sunday. It never even crossed my mind that the Sunday trading rules were different for Scotland.

 

[Photovision]

it's all that extra cash that have from not having to pay prescription fees or university fees I expect

 

[Esk247]

They already can open 24 hours a day 365 days a year providing they are below 3,000 sqft which is larger than pretty much most independents. And if there was profit in opening longer hours I think you will find they would.

Our town is dead by 4.30pm on a Saturday (I open until 5pm Saturdays), why would I stay open longer? Weekday we shut at 6pm because the town is busy(ish) until about 5.30pm. Most independents know exactly what they are doing to maximise profit, unlike the supermarket blunderbuss approach.

So where do all the people disappear to?

It's as if on a Sunday evening the world ceases to exist in this country. I just find it odd, our online sales grow on a sunday after 8pm so people must still be wanting to buy products, a lot are purchased on next day on a sunday too so they need these products fast.

The industrial park is open until 8pm on a sunday and seems busy enough, so is it perception that people won't bother going to a high street because they assume everything is already closed?

I know a few of my retail customers did late night opening and it didn't work. i just don't understand why, the place wasn't dead, people were milling around but nobody dared to enter the shops..perhaps they assumed they were closed?

I don't know. All i can speak from is personal experience and I want to see shops open longer, 8pm closing times for independents would be better for me personally as i have to do all my shopping online if i'm working during the day.

 

[Photovision]

I want to see shops open longer, 8pm closing times for independents would be better for me personally as i have to do all my shopping online if i'm working during the day.

You should do it on your day off.........

or what about the people who do open late? when do they do their shopping?

Just because people buy online doesn't mean theres a demand for BAM retail at those times, people are relaxing having a drink and surfing the net for luxuries

 

[Talay]

At our local Tesco people seem to panic buy on a Sunday afternoon as it is about to close at 4pm and they don't know how they will cope until Monday morning!!!!

I know this fairly large Asda very well as I saw it being built, not 100m from a property I had. From nothing, it revitalised the nearby indoor market rather than pinching sales from it. Yet at 17:00 on Sunday (opens at 11:00) it is madness and really is from 16:30.

It only closes on Saturday night and Sunday evening and is open 24 hours the other days. Even when closed people drive into the carpark in hope that it might be open. If it could open 24/7/365 it would and he demand is already there.

Actually, for a supermarket, opening during the night is only a marginal extra cost because they have to restock anyway.

 

[gr9ce]

All well and good the large stores embracing longer opening opportunities but what of the smaller family run independents?

With an increasing move to open all hours and longer on Sundays is there danger the general public might move their shopping patterns to later?

In the current situation a family store may just get that extra hour off on a Sunday, this is the threat. They simply cannot afford extra staff to cover longer hours or do not feel they can entrust their business to the hands of others unsupervised.

If people need to shop later because of work etc lets start trading hours at 11 am lol

 

[Philip Hoyle]

All well and good the large stores embracing longer opening opportunities but what of the smaller family run independents?

With an increasing move to open all hours and longer on Sundays is there danger the general public might move their shopping patterns to later?

In the current situation a family store may just get that extra hour off on a Sunday, this is the threat. They simply cannot afford extra staff to cover longer hours or do not feel they can entrust their business to the hands of others unsupervised.

If people need to shop later because of work etc lets start trading hours at 11 am lol

Many small owner run shops have already realised this and have done exactly as you suggest. It's more and more common these days for small specialist shops to be open on a Sunday and closed on, say a Monday or Tuesday.

I frequent a hobby shop that have moved from Mon-Sat (closed Sunday) 10-4, to a four day week, Thurs to Sunday, but now opening earlier and closing later, so the number of hours open are the same, but over fewer days and he now has 3 days off. The guy who owns it tells me that his turnover isn't any lower, but that now he enjoys more quality time off. His customers were told long in advance and he's happy that he's not lost many (if any) customers as his was a destination shop anyway.

I fully appreciate the point made earlier about small shop owners not being able to work all hours and not being able to afford staff, but that's just the way it is. I worked in our family newsagents for over 20 years, opening 7 days, 6am starts, etc., with no staff, just the immediately family to run it (some who had proper day jobs as well!) so I know all about the long hours and being tied to the counter. If a shop owner wants to work 9-5 m-f then respectfully I suggest they're in the wrong business.

In the old days, shops could dictate their restrictive opening hours and the customers would have no choice but to accept it, as all the shops did the same. Nowadays, things have changed and customers have choices. If a shop can't afford staff and the owner can't open it at times when customers want to shop, then you have to wonder whether the shop is viable in today's market place.

 

[Esk247]

You should do it on your day off.........

or what about the people who do open late? when do they do their shopping?

Just because people buy online doesn't mean theres a demand for BAM retail at those times, people are relaxing having a drink and surfing the net for luxuries

An example of why ordinary shops should die out, dinosaurs where they tell the customer what time they can shop...thanks but no thanks..i'll shop online instead, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year.

Luxuries? Trust me. I run a number of websites selling a range of products and on a Sunday it is NOT just luxuries people are buying, it's stuff they cannot get because the local shop is closed e.g. plumbing parts that they want on same day delivery for Monday.

There must be a demand for retail at those times..why is Tesco open until 9pm on a Sunday and why are the tills full as people rush through all the stuff for school on Monday, jesus don't forget the Cheesestrings argh and the Fruit Juice!!!

The only issue we have when running a shop late is the staff costs because we cannot be in 9am until 9pm unlike the supermarkets who have staff changeovers.

It reminds of me of old fashioned television schedules..remember those? in the paper? where you have to wait until 8pm to watch that programme or sit through drivel for a hour...pah...wakey wakey, internet provides me with any programme i wish, any time i wish, on any device i wish from my iPhone to my iPad to my PC and TV.

 

[Banned]

why is Tesco open until 9pm on a Sunday

Not in England they aint'.

 

[Consistency]

All well and good the large stores embracing longer opening opportunities but what of the smaller family run independents?

With an increasing move to open all hours and longer on Sundays is there danger the general public might move their shopping patterns to later?

In the current situation a family store may just get that extra hour off on a Sunday, this is the threat. They simply cannot afford extra staff to cover longer hours or do not feel they can entrust their business to the hands of others unsupervised.

If people need to shop later because of work etc lets start trading hours at 11 am lol

I remember needing only milk and it was Easter Sunday. I thought well I only need milk, I will go the opposite direction and go to the little shop, newspapers were in print and so the newsagents would be open.

So I get there, note on the window - closed for Easter Sunday - Sorry. So I go back to trusted Tesco. Try supporting the local shop and it cost me half an hour. I was prepared to pay more for my milk!

 

[MerchantServicesBDM]

Yes, Sundays were VERY quiet weren't they?

 

[Talay]

An example of why ordinary shops should die out, dinosaurs where they tell the customer what time they can shop.....

Exactly. When said shopkeeper, ran you an account, put aside the best cut of beef for you, took your order and then delivered it, back in the old days of service, then maybe they could somewhat dictate.

But hang on, on account, remote ordering, home delivery.......isn't that internet shopping ?

I remember needing only milk and it was Easter Sunday. I thought well I only need milk, I will go the opposite direction and go to the little shop, newspapers were in print and so the newsagents would be open.

So I get there, note on the window - closed for Easter Sunday - Sorry. So I go back to trusted Tesco. Try supporting the local shop and it cost me half an hour. I was prepared to pay more for my milk!

Random closing, overpriced, poor attitude, outdated business practices, yes, they are dinosaurs.

 

[Cobby]

There must be a demand for retail at those times..

"There must be". You're right, it's hard to believe that there usually isn't...

 

[Banned]

There will always be a demand, the question is it enough of a demand to be profitable. If a shop is shut between certain hours it's because there is no profit to be made during that time.

 

[Consistency]

I think it is the random closing that has an impact. There was a local cafe that was new and advertised new opening times as being open until whatever time it was.
Walked past it on its first day and it was closed two hours beforehand.

Imagine if you were meeting a friend in a cafe, would you choose Costa coffe that is open until seven or support this one?

It is security, familiarity and reliability that I think gives the advantage to the bigger chains.

It is sad because the harder working new cafe that opens up next is going to be penalised because of this one as people remember and it just breeds lack of confidence. Maybe if there was a stronger community between smaller shops where another shop is seeing one with their mop out and wet sign gave them a good rollecking as this has an impact on other shops and their reputation and ultimately their business.

 

[Cobby]

Random closing, overpriced, poor attitude, outdated business practices, yes, they are dinosaurs.

That's so weird because none of those things apply to the independent shops I know and visit. It's not unheard of but it certainly isn't the norm. Of course there is the element that insist on tarring all independents as suffering the above but they tend to be those that don't know any better than to buy into supermarket propaganda...

Imagine if you were meeting a friend in a cafe, would you choose Costa coffe that is open until seven or support this one?

Depends on if you wanted to pay over the odds for average coffee knocked out by staff spending their time watching the clock; if you did then Costa's a good bet.

It is sad because the harder working new cafe that opens up next is going to be penalised because of this one as people remember and it just breeds lack of confidence.

If they can't tell one business apart from another, surely that's a failing of the people that hold those views? Do they refuse to buy clothes in Top Shop because they once bought some bad jeans at tesco?

 

[Cobby]

I think it is the random closing that has an impact.

If there's one argument to be fairly levelled at independents it's probably this one. I've seen it from time to time in places I've lived. It's business basics not to do it on a whim and they certainly suffer the consequences when they try. Genuine closures will be rare but if they can be prevented they usually will be; whether their customers have the ability to understand or sympathise is another matter.

 

[Esk247]

Depends on if you wanted to pay over the odds for average coffee knocked out by staff spending their time watching the clock; if you did then Costa's a good bet.

You pay over the odds in a local cafe, i know, i used to work in one. If you want quick coffee you head to McDonalds or Costa, simples.

Independents are still stuck in the olde worlde where everyone dances round oak trees and butterflies fill the air. People have so much time to prance from shop to shop, peering through windows and giggling to themselves as cherubs watch over them sitting on puffed up clouds.

Real world. People work 9am until 6pm, they want a coffee, they want it now not in 20 minutes. They've got to pick the kids up from football at 7pm and don't have time to sit on a leather sofa listening to Mozart.

If independent shops were so great why are they struggling? Supermarkets have it all and independents don't get it. Free parking? Open until late or 24 hours? open sundays? over 50,000 products in stock? free home delivery? have your car washed while you wait? a growing selection of wines and beers? big shopping trolleys and even kids play parks!

Sometimes you can get bargains in the local independent shops, other times the supermarkets have lowered their prices for that week. It's all about shopping around and finding the best deal and at the moment, the independents seem to be struggling to come up with enough good reasons to pick them over the fast and furious supermarket giants.

I tried buying a laptop today from a local shop. Useless, his prices are £100 over ebuyers and his returns policy is 30 days and i bet he'd argue over that too. I interrupted him reading his book, he was most annoyed. I've bought it on ebuyer instead, £100 off, free delivery and 2 year warranty..thank you very much!

 

[Consistency]

I am not saying it is fair, I am saying that it has an impact. There are people who do tarnish all small businesses and independent shops with the same brush but likewise there are many more who tarnish all supermarkets as being one of the same. It applies both ways. If one supermarket sells rotten meat and a customer is poisoned, there is an anti-supermarket campaign.

I think there is good and bad in both.

 

[Banned]

Supermarkets have it all and independents don't get it. Free parking? Open until late or 24 hours? open sundays? over 50,000 products in stock? free home delivery? have your car washed while you wait? a growing selection of wines and beers? big shopping trolleys and even kids play parks!

That's fine if you don't mind mass produced bland and processed food and drink.

Easy test for you, buy a bottle of £20 plonk from a supermarket then spend £10 on a bottle recommended by your local independent wine merchant.

Or the old tried and tested bacon test - both will enlighten you.

Yes there are bad independents, there are very many more excellent ones though.

 

[Consistency]

I interrupted him reading his book, he was most annoyed.

This is all too often my experience. Maybe mine is rare but my experience nevertheless.

 

[mhall]

Supermarkets have it all !

you are not wrong there, cheap land, massive land banks, the ability to bribe councils, staff for free, cheap or zero rates for up to twenty years, suppliers over a barrel

Yes, they have it all!!!

 

[Esk247]

you are not wrong there, cheap land, massive land banks, the ability to bribe councils, staff for free, cheap or zero rates for up to twenty years, suppliers over a barrel

Yes, they have it all!!!

Independents don't have high staffing costs, they don't have heavy marketing budgets, they don't need IT infrastructure, they don't need to build shops before they can occupy them, independents can get rate relief, rent free periods yet still they bleat about how the supermarkets have it so good.

People are voting with their feet. I would say that's pretty obvious to anyone who's walked down a high street recently.

As for the wine test..tried that..independent was rubbish supermarket was faster and had a wider variety at cheaper prices.

The bacon test is true, local butchers are much better and have better quality produce but i can't get parked near them and i have to go out of my way and use up petrol just to buy some lovely produce.

Morrisons fish counter thingy surprised me the other day, they have some lovely rare fish offerings sourced from the towns fishing fleet. I was most surprised. It was delicious and i even got my petrol vouchers and half price choccies as i left.

 

[windlesham]

That's fine if you don't mind mass produced bland and processed food and drink.

Easy test for you, buy a bottle of £20 plonk from a supermarket then spend £10 on a bottle recommended by your local independent wine merchant.

Or the old tried and tested bacon test - both will enlighten you.

Yes there are bad independents, there are very many more excellent ones though.

You seem to operate under the assumption that it's either a supermarket or an independent specialist shop that knows their product back to front. When in reality these specialist shops are few and far between.

Add into the equation the time you'd take going to the butcher, baker and candlestick maker it's a supermarket every time for me.

 

[Cobby]

You pay over the odds in a local cafe, i know, i used to work in one. If you want quick coffee you head to McDonalds or Costa, simples.

Congratulations on having worked in one, that doesn't make you an authority but your anecdote has been noted. If you think they charge over the odds then that's fine - if you can't tell the difference you may as well go and buy the cheapest coffee you can from mcdonald's, anything else is 'over the odds' for you.

Independents are still stuck in the olde worlde where everyone dances round oak trees and butterflies fill the air. People have so much time to prance from shop to shop, peering through windows and giggling to themselves as cherubs watch over them sitting on puffed up clouds.

This is a good example of the obtuse nature of the blinkered masses. Reality isn't anything like this but you won't be told otherwise.

If independent shops were so great why are they struggling?

This is actually a very complicated question that involves looking at anti-competitive behaviour and all sorts of other things including the concept of the 'free-market'. The morally bankrupt behaviour of the corporations (supermarkets included) and their bending and breaking of laws means they are pretty much beyond reproach, and these days have the power to dictate government policy. Maybe when the independents aren't so heavily penalised for being independent...

Anyway, independents aren't the answer for everybody but they are a fantastic and invaluable resource; sadly some people are too blinkered to see otherwise. That is changing but it's a slow process...

.

 

[Banned]

You seem to operate under the assumption that it's either a supermarket or an independent specialist shop that knows their product back to front. When in reality these specialist shops are few and far between.

Add into the equation the time you'd take going to the butcher, baker and candlestick maker it's a supermarket every time for me.

Pop over here then, within 100 feet you will find independent Butcher, Green Grocer, Deli', Bakers, travel agents and a confectionery shop. Also Newsagents, post office, stationers, chemist, insurance broker and card shops (ok maybe 200 feet now!). You can park for free and get good quality products quicker, cheaper and with less legwork than you will in the supermarket round the corner and book your holiday and insure your car at the same time.

It's a shame more towns are not like this, perhaps that's why I'm blinkered and a bit stubborn concerning independents because I know they can, and do, provide a better and more convenient shopping experience.

 

[windlesham]

Pop over here then, within 100 feet you will find independent Butcher, Green Grocer, Deli', Bakers, travel agents and a confectionery shop. Also Newsagents, post office, stationers, chemist, insurance broker and card shops (ok maybe 200 feet now!). You can park for free and get good quality products quicker, cheaper and with less legwork than you will in the supermarket round the corner and book your holiday and insure your car at the same time.

It's a shame more towns are not like this, perhaps that's why I'm blinkered and a but stubborn concerning independents because I know they can, and do, provide a better and more convenient shopping experience.

I don't know where 'over here' is

Out of those shops you have a deli, butcher, greengrocer that may or may not provide better quality food. Cheaper - unlikely and less legwork absolutely not.

The rest of the shops you've named will, as a general rule source the same products as larger stores. I can go to tescos and get advice from the pharmacist, pick up the phone to speak to an insurance broker and peruse the web for holiday advice

 

[Cobby]

Add into the equation the time you'd take going to the butcher, baker and candlestick maker it's a supermarket every time for me.

And that's fine. Supermarkets are there for exactly that: people that don't really know or care about quality, are easily duped by price promotions and 'savings', and are happy to be treated as anonymous, faceless consumers.

Aren't we lucky to have such diversity.

Out of those shops you have a deli, butcher, greengrocer that may or may not provide better quality food.

That's pretty much a USP for these types of business and if they don't provide it they don't stay in business, it's that simple (sometimes even when they do provide it they don't stay in business, which is sad). If you knew half of the truths about the supermarkets and their food procurement and production you would seriously question your shopping habits.

 

[windlesham]

And that's fine. Supermarkets are there for exactly that: people that don't really know or care about quality, are easily duped by price promotions and 'savings', and are happy to be treated as anonymous, faceless consumers.

Aren't we lucky to have such diversity.

Again, you operate under the presumption that independent = quality.

 

[Banned]

So out of those shops you have a deli, butcher, greengrocer that may or may not provide better quality food. Cheaper - unlikely and less legwork absolutely not.

The rest of the shops you've named will, as a general rule source the same products as larger stores. I can go to tescos and get advice from the pharmacist, pick up the phone and speak to an insurance broker.

So there you go, you obviously want to shop with the Supermarkets not independents no matter what. Fair enough.

However I'll guarantee that the time spent in a Superstore will be longer, with more legwork involved, than shopping with the independents over a length of 200 feet.

As for the "fact" that the other products will be sourced from the same place as supermarkets just shows your ignorance of retail.

 

[windlesham]

And that's fine. Supermarkets are there for exactly that: people that don't really know or care about quality, are easily duped by price promotions and 'savings', and are happy to be treated as anonymous, faceless consumers.

Aren't we lucky to have such diversity.


That's pretty much a USP for these types of business and if they don't provide it they don't stay in business, it's that simple (sometimes even when they do provide it they don't stay in business, which is sad). If you knew half of the truths about the supermarkets and their food procurement and production you would seriously question your shopping habits.

Enlighten me, what are the truths about supermarkets procurement and production.

My guess is you have no real idea but wish to back up you're independent = quality stance.

 

[Banned]

Again, you operate under the presumption that independent = quality.

Maybe not every time, what you can be sure of though is that a supermarket won't be supplying anything that's not mass produced. That is guaranteed.

 

[Esk247]

This is a good example of the obtuse nature of the blinkered masses. Reality isn't anything like this but you won't be told otherwise.

I know, i must be so blinkered and dumb. My goodness, thank you for helping me see the light oh godly shop keeper.

For I shall now go forth, waste £3 per hour on parking, then spend 10 minutes walking to the butchers, a further 15 minutes walking to the local mini mart which sells sod all that i actually want and has someones son working behind the till who can't be bothered because he's on his phone and then i shall pop back to my car with lots of bags of shopping that has cost me more than a supermarket and in which the bags will split open and pour my expensive bacon rashes all over the car park floor.

Won't be told otherwise? You rude creature. This here folks is another reason why independents should just give up. Telling your customers are you, that's twice i've been 'TOLD' in this thread. Yes, you be told customer, told to shop when we are open and not when you are free, told to shop here and there, told to pay £3 per hour for parking! I've been told alright. Told to never ever step foot in an independent ever again. Banish them all..for good.

 

[windlesham]

So there you go, you obviously want to shop with the Supermarkets not independents no matter what. Fair enough.

However I'll guarantee that the time spent in a Superstore will be longer, with more legwork involved, than shopping with the independents over a length of 200 feet.

As for the "fact" that the other products will be sourced from the same place as supermarkets you are showing your ignorance of retail.

Enlighten me about these secret places where newsagents source their newspapers from. wine merchants their wine, insurance brokers their policies, travel agents their flights.

 

[Esk247]

Maybe not every time, what you can be sure of though is that a supermarket won't be supplying anything that's not mass produced. That is guaranteed.

No it's not. Morrisons still have fish sourced from our local boats.

 

[Banned]

No it's not. Morrisons still have fish sourced from our local boats.

At all their stores?

 

[Esk247]

At all their stores?

Well i can't say as i've never visited every single Morrisons in the country..have you visited every single independent shop in the world? didn't think so.

Silly argument.

Local Morrisons has fish sourced locally and i know its sourced locally because i've seen Morrisons vehicles at the fish market by the harbour.

 

[Banned]

Well i can't say as i've never visited every single Morrisons in the country..have you visited every single independent shop in the world? didn't think so.

Silly argument.

Local Morrisons has fish sourced locally and i know its sourced locally because i've seen Morrisons vehicles at the fish market by the harbour.

That was my point, local to you. They probably also send that same fish to the other end of the country but obviously can't advertise it as local. No doubt their milk is advertised as sourced locally for a few branches and their beef for others.

Where I live you couldn't possible have local fish as the sea is 60 miles away.

Actually I'm not a great fan of local produce, just because it's local doesn't mean it's any good by a long stretch. We go to great effort to find the best from the entire UK instead.

 

[windlesham]

That was my point, local to you. They probably also send that same fish to the other end of the country but obviously can't advertise it as local. No doubt their milk is advertised as sourced locally for a few branches and their beef for others.

Where I live you couldn't possible have local fish as the sea is 60 miles away.

Actually I'm not a great fan of local produce, just because it's local doesn't mean it's any good by a long stretch. We go to great effort to find the best from the entire UK instead.

Like the supermarkets then.

 

[Banned]

Like the supermarkets then.

No, your are getting confused with local and mass produced.