What is better: a foundation degree or a HND?

[Amenity]

My aim is to get some further education but only 2 years max as I want to get out into the real world (also it will cost me less) - however I will also need a qualification extra in order to get a fairly good job before venturing out myself.

So, what would be better - a foundation degree or a HND? In terms of the following:

1. Looking good to an employer.
2. Being able to carry on with a full degree in the future if I so wish to do so.

Thanks a lot!

 

[mhall]

Depends what you are using it for. Experience is better than education in many areas

 

[Amenity]

Yes I want to get a job first but my parents really are encouraging me to do some sort of further education, and a few other people I've spoken to have as well, not just for the education but for the experience. 2 years I can deal with, not 3 and CERTAINLY not more. 2 years is fine.

I'm going to start a business during the course and quit it if it is successful and if not I'll have a back up plan.

It'd be hard to get a good full time job without any further ed.

Anyway thanks, my question still stands!

 

[captaincloser]

if you are outgoing get yourself a job in sales where you will be trained....beats the hell out of further education plus you can study for something in your spare time. Also if you make it in sales you will earn more than your mates !

 

[shadesofblue]

Yes I want to get a job first but my parents really are encouraging me to do some sort of further education, and a few other people I've spoken to have as well, not just for the education but for the experience. 2 years I can deal with, not 3 and CERTAINLY not more. 2 years is fine.

I'm going to start a business during the course and quit it if it is successful and if not I'll have a back up plan.

It'd be hard to get a good full time job without any further ed.

Anyway thanks, my question still stands!

Back in my day HND's lasted 3 years but had easier entry requirements. Foundation degrees are usually a stepping stone to a 3 year degree so I don't put much worth in them.

Why don't you look at a fastrack degree. A number of Uni's are now offering them and they are condensed into two years. I wouldn't consider a degree a fallback option unless it's in one of the tougher subjects as every tom dick and harry now seems to have a second class degree from a third rate Uni

 

[Amenity]

Hmm still undecided.

Side question: is it next to impossible to get a job without a qualification? Something in marketing or sales but not a salesman - I'm not really a salesman type as such. More of a behind the scenes guy rather than in your face car dealer kinda guy!

I like bringing things together and don't mind talking to people, but direct one-on-one sales isn't my thing.

 

[captaincloser]

Hmm still undecided.

Side question: is it next to impossible to get a job without a qualification? Something in marketing or sales but not a salesman - I'm not really a salesman type as such. More of a behind the scenes guy rather than in your face car dealer kinda guy!

I like bringing things together and don't mind talking to people, but direct one-on-one sales isn't my thing.

Everyone who walks in shoe leather (or man made shoes) is a salesman..most though are no good at it or scaredy cats ('one to one sales isnt my thing')

Dont get hung up on the word...many call themsleves all sorts of things instead of saleman but we are all selling something even priests.

There are excellent car dealers and shady ones, same as lawyers, doctors, builders, accountants etc.

 

[Amenity]

I guess you're right... but I'm more into creating a brand, developing a product and marketing it, rather than having someone hand me a product and then I go out and try and sell it to someone.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I think you will find the HNC to be a more practical course designed much more for businesses, whilst the degree is purely academic

Most HNC also have agreed status with the professional bodies so that they qualify for membership

 

[cjd]

As everyone now has some kind of rubbish qualification you're better off having either nothing and making your own way, or a really good degree in a hard subject from a good university. Don't waste your time and cash on a middle way.

 

[captaincloser]

I guess you're right... but I'm more into creating a brand, developing a product and marketing it, rather than having someone hand me a product and then I go out and try and sell it to someone.

yeah...well the guys who do that stuff either
a)create
b)develop or
C)market .

You are going to be a generalist and do it all ? Jobs like that went out around 1965.

You will learn more in a year in sales than any HNC D OR E and you will thank yourself for doing it.These courses are not highly valued whereas experience is particulary if you really can surprise yourself and sell. Everyone I know can sell...some just need a small,loaded, revolver next to their temple to really get them going each morning...

Learning or Earning..how tough a decision is that

More learning is just putting off the day you start earning.Do you have any idea how hard life without experience will be for you in 2/3 years time ? The university bubble will have burst...there will be hundreds like you in every town

 

[Amenity]

Thanks for the solid advice. I guess out of the three jobs you said - I'd be the creator definitely.

About your theory of selling though - I might actually give it a go, I know there are some commission-based selling jobs available for anyone in these shopping centres and I could give one a go... I'm introverted but it might do me some good.

 

[paulears]

As somebody who has been writing qualifications being studied in the UK since the 90s, I've got a spin on this one. Many HND qualifications can be converted into a degree by doing 12-18 months extra. Exactly how much is determined by what you have been taught, and what the subject is. Some degrees can be VERY practical, others hardly so at all. It is quite fair to say that anything other than a first class degree is starting to be sneered at, a little. Not everybody is geared up to do well at uni. Actual contact time at university is tiny - you are pit into an environment where the things you need to teach yourself are present. If you don't work well on your own, without somebody constantly chasing you up, you will do badly - HND the same. HNCs are same level, less hours, so usually a part-time study system perhaps while you're working, with course fees paid by your employer?

My own sons didn't go to uni. One got a job straight away and is very happy. The other decided he liked what I do, and just went for it as work appeared, and he's doing well. However, in my area of the industry, while practical skills are what is needed at the lower levels, promotion to the better paid jobs with much better conditions require the kind of knowledge university study provides. I think his plan is to do an OU degree at some point in his spare time, and this I agree with. If he had gone to uni, it would have always been last moment work, and late nights and lay in bed mornings.

If you want to be a solicitor or doctor, you MUST do uni. If you want to be in sales, it's not really critical. If you know your career goal, look at people doing it now and ask if they have a degree. Then you will know what is needed.

If it helps, people doing Higher Education later always do better!

 

I've no idea how much things have changed since my day (well, cars have been invented...) but I did a Business Studies HND with, at the time was deemed to be a far more practical, hands-on qualification than the 4-year degree.

As a big generalisation, degree people went on to structured management trainee programs with big corporates, whereas HNDers went into diverse roles, often in SME businesses

 

[ps_leccy]

Side question: is it next to impossible to get a job without a qualification?

Far from it. I got a technical job based on my experience/knowledge and rose up through that first company to positions that would generally be filled by people with degrees.
I had 3A and 3Cs at GCSE and that was it - dropped out of A levels after the first year (this was before you got given an AS level half way through.)

I've seen a lot of my friends get degrees and fail to get a job with the degree, or at least for some time. Often they end up on a similar path to me. In those two/three years there's a lot of real world experience that employers often will value over a piece of paper.

However, I do regret not going to Uni for the whole general 'experience'; but I wasn't ready for it at the time.

 

[paulears]

The thing to remember about the vocational training route, which covers BTEC Firsts in schools for 14-18 year olds, BTEC Nationals 16-18, and then Higher Nationals at 18-20ish is that they are generally competence based. Degrees traditionally, were about study, research and analysis. The old Technical Colleges and Polys liked HNDs, and the 'traditional' unis did not. Then they all kind of blended together.

Depending on your industry, vocational programmes can be 100% the best thing, while for others, useless. The grading of Pass, Merit and Distinction is understood by employers - but if you wanted to be a legal person, a vocational programme wouldn't really work - you need a wide breadth and depth of knowledge and the ability to apply it. In an HND they generally provide skills that can be tested. Very different.

From my experience of employing people in the technical entertainment industry - sound, lighting, video, stage management etc, having a degree tells me very little about how competent they are. They often know the words, but having had a Sound Design graduate who didn't actually know how to connect the equipment together, I'm happier with people with BTEC and HND backgrounds, because I know they will be able to do it, because it's part of the course. If I was going to court, I'd rather have a legal team with A Levels and a law degree to look after me!

Learning styles are also important. Somebody who will excel on a degree programme, could flounder on an HND and vice versa. Loads of colleges now do HND top-ups, adding extra time to the 2 year HND to convert it into a degree - and that looks even better on the CV - two very different qualifications looks to any savvy employer as the best of both.

Now if the question was is the degree worth £9000 a year, then we'd have very different answers!

 

[BustersDogs]

I left school with 5 o'levels and 2 CSEs, yet still managed to get a job in the BBC (16 years later) where most people had a degree. They all earned more than I did, but I got the job by showing I could do it. It helped that my boss had got her job the same way, although she at least had some A levels. I found it easy (ish) to get promoted up to Assistant Producer, but there's no way they were letting me get up to Producer.

I'm now running a pet care business where it's becoming more and more 'fashionable' to get a degree for the training and behaviour side of the business. I am studying, but not to degree level. I get just as much work as all the trainers who have degrees and know lots of big words. You can't use those big words with pet owners anyway - they only impress other trainers! I have the sameknowledge through experience. I just don't know the big words for it.

 

[Gaskell]

I studied Mechanical Engineering on a foundation degree course, I dont like the word 'foundation' is sounds too much like a foundation year course prior to a full degree.

You only have to do another years part-time to complete a full degree after passing a foundation degree.

Personally, I'd like to present a HND certificate at an interview rather than a foundation degree certificate. Only because of the word 'foundation'.

 

[captaincloser]

About your theory of selling though - I might actually give it a go, I know there are some commission-based selling jobs available for anyone in these shopping centres and I could give one a go... I'm introverted but it might do me some good.

It would almost certainly do you some good to try selling particularly if you get some good training. Many people who consider themselves 'introverts' have gone on to do well in sales. Selling is all about conversation not content initially.People buy people long before they buy the product/service. Provided you are not a mad axeman you can do it if you try...though I imagine mad axemen can probaby do it too...before they get carried away after any rejection.

 

[Amenity]

It would almost certainly do you some good to try selling particularly if you get some good training. Many people who consider themselves 'introverts' have gone on to do well in sales. Selling is all about conversation not content initially.People buy people long before they buy the product/service. Provided you are not a mad axeman you can do it if you try...though I imagine mad axemen can probaby do it too...before they get carried away after any rejection.

Haha true. I'm reading a book on how to sell at the moment and I'm sure I'd be up for it and do well.

But yes I kind of know what I want to do but my parents also know what they want me to do - a full 3 year degree. It's really awkward..

 

[campbeji]

Hi,

Most of what everyone has said is good quality info and true as well However I tend to come at this thing from a little bit of a different direction. To make this sort of decesion you need to have a goal in mind, a fixed outcome that you want to achieve with your life. Basically you want to design your life That sounds riduculous but you will be doing it either intentionally or not. So if you want to be a specialist surgeon you have to do what they do to get to be a surgeon, a solicitor needs to be doing what solicitors need to be doing. If you want to run a successful business then why would you go through the training to be a doctor for example.

In my opinion far to many people just do the next thing that presents itself, in my case O levels, then BTEC Diploma, BTEC HNC, Degree (I got booted from that due to illness and disinterest), HND (Failed miserably again due to illness and disinterest), later did a part time BTEC Diploma and a BTEC HNC.

So I have spent years studying engineering (the early years) and then software engineering) all of which is and always was useless to me, I think I only ever managed to get one job based on the first Engineering HNC and that was a computer based job running a software system for a large company??

I wish I had thought about what I wanted to do and be when I was a kid and not just followed everyone else. I remember the decision that sent me down that road, my mate from school signed up for the BTEC course and I thought to my self 'OK I'll do that too'.

If I was doing it again I would probably take a much different route, something that would lead me to running my own business as I do now, just 20+ years faster.

If I was you I would talk to your parents, tell them that you want to defer your admission to uni so that you can get some sort of practical experience in the 'University of Life' and then work your behind off in a bunch of different situations.

I would also read as many self help books as you can over that time, starting with 'the 4 hour work week'. After a year if you have worked hard you will know what you want to do.

Just remember your parents only want you to be happy and successfull and society tells them that the best way to do that is to go to uni.

Good Luck
Jim

 

[Amenity]

Hi,

Most of what everyone has said is good quality info and true as well However I tend to come at this thing from a little bit of a different direction. To make this sort of decesion you need to have a goal in mind, a fixed outcome that you want to achieve with your life. Basically you want to design your life That sounds riduculous but you will be doing it either intentionally or not. So if you want to be a specialist surgeon you have to do what they do to get to be a surgeon, a solicitor needs to be doing what solicitors need to be doing. If you want to run a successful business then why would you go through the training to be a doctor for example.

In my opinion far to many people just do the next thing that presents itself, in my case O levels, then BTEC Diploma, BTEC HNC, Degree (I got booted from that due to illness and disinterest), HND (Failed miserably again due to illness and disinterest), later did a part time BTEC Diploma and a BTEC HNC.

So I have spent years studying engineering (the early years) and then software engineering) all of which is and always was useless to me, I think I only ever managed to get one job based on the first Engineering HNC and that was a computer based job running a software system for a large company??

I wish I had thought about what I wanted to do and be when I was a kid and not just followed everyone else. I remember the decision that sent me down that road, my mate from school signed up for the BTEC course and I thought to my self 'OK I'll do that too'.

If I was doing it again I would probably take a much different route, something that would lead me to running my own business as I do now, just 20+ years faster.

If I was you I would talk to your parents, tell them that you want to defer your admission to uni so that you can get some sort of practical experience in the 'University of Life' and then work your behind off in a bunch of different situations.

I would also read as many self help books as you can over that time, starting with 'the 4 hour work week'. After a year if you have worked hard you will know what you want to do.

Just remember your parents only want you to be happy and successfull and society tells them that the best way to do that is to go to uni.

Good Luck
Jim

Thanks Jim, however my dad owns his own company and has a different view.

He says I will never get anywhere without a degree as it opens doors etc.. allows me to get jobs and look better than the people who don't have degrees. That's why he wants me to do it.. I know it's not the case in every case... but he's stubborn and believes he is 100% right and I am 100% wrong.. it's hard to say no I'm not going.

Regardless I will apply anyway and I'll make my final decision next year since my applications won't be set in stone even if they are accepted.

 

[campbeji]

Hi again,

I understand what your saying, but at the end of the day how many years are you willing to spend to please him, at your age you have to be willing to live your own life and do what you think is right. He may be right that it will open doors and make you look better, it is certainly doing that for the 1000's of unemployed and underemployed graduates Like I said society says that Uni is best but what is that worth?

If you look at everyone that you know in the 40 to 50 age range and decide which ones have the sort of life you want, financially, physically, emotionally, free time etc What did they do to get to where they are.

I'm not saying that your Dad is wrong but he may be talking about a different thing, he's worried about you turning into a worthless loser and he thinks that going to Uni will help, maybe he's trying to give you the opportunities he never had.

I am doing exactly the same thing with my son, except he wants to go to Uni and I want him to be successful Or at least I want him to think it through first. In my experience I know very few Graduates who are doing what they trained for that I would swap my lifestyle for (and I'm not just talking money - I'm skint), things like one guy who is very successful financially, has a great car thats parked in the company car park all day, a big house that seems to be only there for him to sleep in, but he's got lots of money and 'respect'.

My point is that you have to live your own life, don't spend 20 years banging your head up against a wall like I did because I didn't have the guts to work it out properly. Decide what you really want out of life and then do that.

At you age taking a year out to investigate other options isn't going to be a bad thing, it might even make you look like more of a winner when it comes to the job front. The thing is that if you do this then you HAVE TO work your ass off our you'll just be wasting your time.

If you do decide to do something like this then don't go into your Dad and say 'Your wrong', ask for his advice, tell him your worried it may not be the right thing to do and you'd like to try other options, maybe at the same time as retaking some classes to get better grades to get onto a better Uni course.

A lot of the Unis have (or at least used to have) statistics on what their graduate students do after they leave, reading between the lines on a lot of these can be very enlightening.

Good Luck

 

[paulears]

The thing is that where there were quite defined pathways in the past, now the routes through education are very complex. Universities used to offer purely academic education, the alternative was the BTEC to HND route, offered by the old technical colleges and polytechnics. Now, many degrees have a proportion of practical (usually called 'vocational') content, while the HNDs have more academic content. To confuse it further, you can top up an HND, by adding in the missing academic content, while other places offer foundation degrees which often have some of the content in the HND. Multiply this through dozens of subject areas and it's no surprise people are confused. Luckily - all these different qualifications have been defined by the Government, so it is (or at least should be) possible to produce some level descriptors.

2 - GCSEs grades A*-C
- Key Skills level 2
- Skills for Life
- Functional Skills at Level 1 - BTEC Awards, Certificates, and Diplomas at level 2
- Functional Skills at level 2
- OCR Nationals
- NVQs at level 2 3 - A levels
- GCE in applied subjects
- International Baccalaureate
- Key Skills level 3 - BTEC Awards, Certificates, and Diplomas at level 3
- BTEC Nationals
- OCR Nationals
- NVQs at level 3 4 - Certificates of Higher Education - BTEC Professional Diplomas Certificates and Awards
- HNCs
- NVQs at level 4 5 - HNCs and HNDs
- Other higher diplomas - HNDs
- BTEC Professional Diplomas, Certificates and Awards
- NVQs at level 5 6 - National Diploma in Professional Production Skills
- BTEC Advanced Professional Diplomas, Certificates and Awards - BTEC Advanced Professional Diplomas, Certificates and Awards 7 - Diploma in Translation
- BTEC Advanced Professional Diplomas, Certificates and Awards - BTEC Advanced Professional Diplomas, Certificates and Awards 8 - specialist awards - Award, Certificate and Diploma in strategic direction Framework for Higher Education Qualifications

The Framework for Higher Education Qualifications (FHEQ) has been designed by the higher education sector, and describes all the main higher education qualifications. It applies to degrees, diplomas, certificates and other academic awards granted by a university or higher education college (apart from honorary degrees and higher doctorates).
The FHEQ broadly corresponds with levels 4 to 8 of the National Qualifications Framework, in terms of the demands the qualifications place on learners.
FHEQ level Examples of qualifications 4
- certificates of higher education
- higher national certificates
5
- diplomas of higher education
- Foundation Degrees
- higher national diplomas
6
- bachelors degrees
- bachelors degrees with honours
- graduate certificates and diplomas
- Professional Graduate Certificate in Education
7
- masters degrees
- integrated masters degrees
- postgraduate certificates
- postgraduate diplomas
8
- doctoral degrees


Easy, isn't it?

 

[ps_leccy]

While a plan of some kind is certainly worth considering; I'd take issue that it's that important for many people - because I've seen so many that do have 'a plan' end up doing nothing like it.

For instance both my parents got engineering style degrees to go in to general technical stuff.
They ended up being teachers in Africa.

For the OP:
How much is your dad supporting you?
If you really don't want to follow his path, it'd be quite reasonable to get a job and move out. Then he can't really have any 'say'.
However, if he's offering to pay your way through Uni, I'd seriously consider that. If he's expecting you to get in to a lot of debt as well as giving you some assistance - that's something that'll be on you for a long time to come (though, to be fair the repayment schemes tend to be pretty good) so quite reasonable for you to stick your fingers up and do your own thing I'd say - definitely not fair for a parent to try and force debt on their kids.

 

[BizGurl]

I went through the HND route, which took two years full-time, and then topped up to a full degree with one further academic year. I did come out with good grades, particularly on the HND, owing to the more practical/vocational nature and competence based assessments. When it came to looking for work, I found that the HND was valued much more then the degree, for whatever reasons. In terms of employment/salary though, It's taken me a couple of years to reach the official 'graduate' level, and its in a completely different field to what I studied for. I know it was partly due to my choice of subject, and also the fact that everyone else has higher 'education'.

In some ways, I wish I'd started working & freelancing straight away after learning basic skills, rather then studying for 3 years, as I think that length of experience would have looked much better on my CV then study.

Most people from my uni' year (in our group of courses/faculty/whatever!), are either unemployed or underemployed, and are finding that uni' was a great waste of time and money (to tax-payers....graduates don't have to pay it back unless they earn over a certain amount. The average person I know who didn't bother with uni', are very slowly but surely working their way through life/up the employment ladder, but without the debt around their neck.

RE: Foundation Degrees, as far as I'm aware and from what my brothers been doing, they're on par with HNDs in terms of level, and can lead to the 2nd or 3rd year of a degree course depending on your achievement, but they're more linked to employment routes, and more often then not, tend to be part-time, sort of like a higher education version of an apprenticeship.

Id say get straight into work/business and study part-time if you have to study, as you'd surely get the best of both worlds?

 

[christian_d]

Thanks Jim, however my dad owns his own company and has a different view.

He says I will never get anywhere without a degree as it opens doors etc.. allows me to get jobs and look better than the people who don't have degrees. That's why he wants me to do it.. I know it's not the case in every case... but he's stubborn and believes he is 100% right and I am 100% wrong.. it's hard to say no I'm not going.

Regardless I will apply anyway and I'll make my final decision next year since my applications won't be set in stone even if they are accepted.

Your pops is dead right.

Just do two/three years and you'll still be young enough. Some of the top companies won't even entertain interviewing candidates without a degree and if they are investing heavily in their staff I don't blame them.

There might be some weight behind the comments 'there aint no substitute for experience'... but you try telling that to someone who has both.

Listen to your dad.. He might be old.. but he's right!