Why so many "web design companies" on UKBF?

[Steve Roberts]

Is it my imagination, or is every other business on this site into web-design of some sort?

If so, is there any rationale for this?

 

[DuaneJackson]

It's not your imagination - we're drowning in 'em!

I think there are two factors at work here

1) There are a lot of web designers. period.

2) Web designers, by definition are more web-savvy than most young businesses and hence my likely to hunt out and use a forum like this.

 

[Coding Monkey]

3) Because everyone with a computer thinks they're a web designer.

It really ruins the industry. You can say that we're not brilliant, but I'd gladly (and non arrogantly) say we're far better than many others out there.

 

[lowcostinks]

4) because for £30 u can get web hosting and a domain and there u go u got urself a business online so cheap and easy!

 

[confused]

I agree with Mac, its the same for me, I'm an IT tech/network admin, call me whatever - and apparantly so is just about everyone that can install windows or set up next doors internet for them. The worst is, often the customer is happy because they dont realise its a cobbled together affair.

CALV

 

[Dermot]

Think this post might of stemed out of my first post "where do i start"

Im a qualified web designer, computer science degree et al. The reason im tryin to start up a web design buisiness is because of the huge market there is out there.

Well the local market anyway, there are still loads of small businesses that dont understand the internet or the success a website might bring, with broadband this is starting to change and more and more people want their own site.

I designed a one page site for a friend of mine, hes an electrician who just wanted a few "homers". hes since left his job and is now working full time! I only charged him £50!

 

[Enigma121]

I agree with Mac, its the same for me, I'm an IT tech/network admin, call me whatever - and apparantly so is just about everyone that can install windows or set up next doors internet for them. The worst is, often the customer is happy because they dont realise its a cobbled together affair.

CALV

Which brings us to the next important point. STANDARDS.

We should educate our customers to understand the standards we work to and how to tell a good designer from a bad one based on the standards they adopt.

Run http://validator.w3.org/ against your low budget competitors site and more importantly recommend your prospective customers do the same.

 

[Steve Roberts]

Well I can't help thinking that if it's such a crowded market, where anyone and his dog can compete for next to nothing, why be in that sector in the first place?

 

[Coding Monkey]

Run http://validator.w3.org/ against your low budget competitors site and more importantly recommend your prospective customers do the same.

I suddenly noticed a surge in WC3 bots visiting me. What are you all saying?

I would rather pay an IT expert £50 for 5 minutes work that solved my problem, than a newbie who charged £5/h and took 2 hours. All comes down to trust, how you perceive their expertise and understand the skill involved.

 

[Coding Monkey]

Well I can't help thinking that if it's such a crowded market, where anyone and his dog can compete for next to nothing, why be in that sector in the first place?

Because, there are few very high end web designers in a market filled with amateurs. I'd like to add I don't design, in case that comes across as cocky. I assure you, there's room where I'm aiming and working within, but it involves a struggle to get there, as you come across all the potential clients you don't want before reaching those that you do.

 

[Enigma121]

I suddenly noticed a surge in WC3 bots visiting me. What are you all saying?

Ooops, I can't help feeling at least little bit responsible here. :lol:

 

[Dermot]

You find that a lot of businesses who have their own "amateur" website are happy enough. Its so hard to explain to someone who doesnt understand computers, never mind the internet why their sites are soo bad!

They just say "yeah we have a website and we like it ok"

If only they knew how much a well designed and laid out website might improve their business. Arrgghh thats what frustrates me.

I think now though people are slowly coming round and seeing this potential, its now that the amateurs are getting caught out. And thus the pros will get more business! (hopefully! )

 

[Steve Roberts]

Well I can't help thinking that if it's such a crowded market, where anyone and his dog can compete for next to nothing, why be in that sector in the first place?

Because, there are few very high end web designers in a market filled with amateurs. I'd like to add I don't design, in case that comes across as cocky. I assure you, there's room where I'm aiming and working within, but it involves a struggle to get there, as you come across all the potential clients you don't want before reaching those that you do.

Well I noticed a typo on your web-site:

"When it comes to your website design and your marketing, unique coding is cool, too (and better than the parachute)."

There shouldn’t be a comma after cool. :wink:

 

[Coding Monkey]

You reckon? Copywriter with 16 years experience produced that. He won't make that mistake again :twisted:

I also noticed a typo in your signature

 

[creospace]

I don't think a degree or whatever in computer science makes some one a qualified web designer it just means they have a degree in computer science.

Occasionally you get a clever clogs who is creatively blessed too but only occasionally. The creative side gives birth to the designer.

If no design flair then you just are an owner of a computer degree.

Someone who is creatively blessed and then learns how to build websites using compliant code etc I would say is a web designer.

I am some one who can pass off both ok but I am no designer per se, I freely admit that. My skill is in analytical work of customer’s needs and giving them a solution. I don't have a perfect website, will never say I do and I'm unlikely to invite any criticism of said site.

I do have happy customers though.

Gary

 

[Pixels Ink]

The majority of any web work I get are re-designs due to companies giving thier sister's son/daughter the job as they got a 30 day trial of "insert generic WYSIWYG software" and did it for £50.

It is often much more difficult to do a re-design than it is from scratch due to the botch jobs and luckily most people see the benefit of a clean slate.

I however am not a web programmer and don't pretend to be one , front end design is my domain and some CSS. I'll pay the geeks** for the backend stuff.

It is a very busy industry, but as long as there are amateurs creating websites, there are professionals waiting to tidy up the mess.

My main role is in graphic design and it is exactly the same situation with design for print as it is for the web.

Col

**meant in an endearing way

 

[kartel]

yes i agree. as in most subjects the piece of paper means nothing. it is how creative and in deisgn what imagination you have..

I for one do not call my self a Web designer. even though i have designed website's. I enjoy messing with dreamweaver and working on website's, I know about domain names and setting up hosting through ftp etc. which most web designer's should know anyways.

So what I am.. i dont have any formal qualifications to make me a web designer and have been told my work is a little better than some who in the buisness already.

so i must be a web designer of some sorts hehe..

just my humble opinion regards kartel

 

[DuaneJackson]

I'm a very good programmer. I can pick up any new langiage very quickly. I have an indepth understanding of TCP/IP down to the OSI layer and individual packets.

I can't design a website that looks good to save my life.

Conclusion? Technical ability has zero to do with the ability to design websites.

Sorry Dermot, this isn't a dig at you at all. It's just so-called web designers in general - I wouldn't know if you fall in to this category or not.

 

[Shelley]

well as said on previous posts, there is a market for it. Im just lucky, got a relative that understands it, not trying to make money, but for a hobby.

 

[creacom]

Myself and my business partner are designers with many years experience. Also for the moment we are the only 2 female designers that I have seen on this forum. :wink:

We have now cracked CSS and my business partner is in the middle of learning more and more PHP. Anything more than that and we would call on the services of a great programmer.

A computer science degree means nothing in designing. If you are not artistic you are not artistic. There are people who are and people who are not. Its not something you can teach or learn. You can learn to appreciate and learn to know what looks good. But then doing it is a whole other ball game.

To go back to the original question about why there are so many designers here. Well if we look at the quality in the quantity there are less than 5 here that I would ever consider passing work to.

I gave up a long time ago ( makes me sound so old ! ) counting how many hours a day I design for. If i dont take my head out of the screen every couple of hours to change my mind for 10 mins then Ill explode !

Jacqui

 

[Optegris]

The actual term "web designer" is also quite misleading. The use of the word designer implies that they have a graphical talent. I personally struggle with drawing a stick man which is why I outsource the design elements...

Web developer is a closer match to what I do but there are many, many "web designers" out there who claim to be a designer, a developer, an seo expert, a web host and your best mate for life...

Jack of all trades and master of none?

 

[clairemackaness]

You find that a lot of businesses who have their own "amateur" website are happy enough. Its so hard to explain to someone who doesnt understand computers, never mind the internet why their sites are soo bad!

They just say "yeah we have a website and we like it ok"

If only they knew how much a well designed and laid out website might improve their business. Arrgghh thats what frustrates me.

I think now though people are slowly coming round and seeing this potential, its now that the amateurs are getting caught out. And thus the pros will get more business! (hopefully! )

I'm one of these people, but when I get offers from every person in the world to do me a site, how on earth are we supposed to know which ones mean businesses. I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

 

[Optegris]

I'm one of these people, but when I get offers from every person in the world to do me a site, how on earth are we supposed to know which ones mean businesses. I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

It is hard to sort the wheat from the chaff but that's why you should approach the designers clients and get their views on how they felt they were dealt with...

Although you would commend a designer who got paid on results, it's a completely impractical idea. The webby could build the finest looking website you could ever want but if the clients business was flawed then they would both lose out...

 

[sreeves]

Hey guys, just reading the topic just thought I would join in. I am not a web designer, or a graphic designer... I just love creating designs, wither it be on the web or on paper or other forms you may wish to think of and seeing the clients face when they are happy.

The best way for companies to pick the right designer is to look at their work and what they offer not how much espically if its their first company website, I think if someone looks at a creative persons work and likes what they do then thats the way it should be.

I also agree with the fact that degrees are usless, I got my degree when I was 19 and didnt start work in design until I was 21... it was all to do with experience (and starting the company myself, now with 7 staff). Its how your creative mind works thats the best.

I dont say I am better than anyone else, there are so many designers out there that are awsome. I come on this forum to get some feedback maybe meet a few people who then inturn become clients buts thats just the world of networking.

wwhhhoooo, finished.
cheers
Stevie.

 

[creospace]

I would commend any web designer who did their work for free and then got paid when the business increased. That way us non techy folks with "Amatuer" websites might start to beleive all the hype.

I do and have undertaken work on this basis. It's not risky if you do your homework and look at the deal. Transparency is key with the business you are working for. I do, and want to continue working with affinity group businesses and this is a great area to build a nice revenue stream.

One area is providing membership areas for associations or clubs and then getting paid per member and then the cost is spread through out the subs of the membership, hardly noticeable to them but all together in your pocket very lucrative.

In an industry where every Tom, Dick and Harry is at it you have to think out of the box to keep your head above water. Creative design isn’t always required but creative solutions are.

Gary

 

[Coding Monkey]

So what I am.. i dont have any formal qualifications to make me a web designer and have been told my work is a little better than some who in the buisness already.

so i must be a web designer of some sorts hehe..

I changed a light bulb last week. I don't call myself an electrician. I also helped my dad build a house a few years ago, but I'm certainly not a property developer or builder. The difference is that as someone already said, for £30 you've got a website. There's less risk involved, so more people are willing to try it.

Now, the difference comes clear when you take the term "web designer" out of context and consider it as a professional. After all, it's a job title, and therefore you would associate it with a professional, which is undoubtedly why everyone calls themselves a professional web designer. Going back to Duane's points, I have 2 designers, and I don't know what they got in their GCSEs, A-Level, or if they have a degree. I asked for a portfolio, it was stunning. Next question: are they reliable? Quick phone call - yes, hired. End of subject. In fact, their personal portfolio's were better than 85% of web design companies that I come across, based on design and technical ability.

Yes, I know what to look for, but their portfolio consists of mainly images, not websites. Surely the average person can tell the difference between a good and bad design? My clients certainly can, and 95% of them already had a badly designed website in the first place that achieved nothing.

 

[Coding Monkey]

Although you would commend a designer who got paid on results, it's a completely impractical idea. The webby could build the finest looking website you could ever want but if the clients business was flawed then they would both lose out...

Exactly. Also, if they're not marketing the website or hiring you to market the website, it's not going to result in anything either. If no one knows about it, it won't achieve anything; if no one wants what you're selling, it achieves nothing.

 

[mattk]

The other reason there are so many "Web designers", not just on these forums, but out in the wild, is due to the level of gullibility shown by customers.

Would you let a kid, who operates out of his garden shed and who has no experience or qualifications service your car? Of course you wouldn't.

However, would you let a kid, who operates out of his bedroom, who has no qualifications or experience build you a Web site? Well, it seems like plenty of people would.

Common sense seems to go out the window when someone picks a Web designer.

 

[creospace]

Come on all you kid web designers, out of the closet NOW!

We know who you are and we know your parents!

 

[webit]

I wounder what the split between designers and developers is. I'm a coder. I can use Dreamweaver as well as most designers and can find my way around Photoshop but I'm not a designer even though I have had some design work out their in the past fronting Hight Street business sites.

I code in J2EE (main skill set) and doing some PHP. My expertise in back end intergration and DB driven sites.

I am a professional developer. Thats what I'm paid to to.

 

[cjd]

I suppose the point is that anyone with a PC and access to the net can create a web site and anyone can call themselves a web designer.

The barriers to entry are low to non-existant and a it's a big and growing market so there's all sorts of sites out there; good, bad and ugly.

But it's not much diferent from any high street, big little and crappy looking shops - all that matters is that the site is fit for purpose.

A web designer will always snear at DIY sites but that's not the point, 'does it work?' is the only question that matters.

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

 

[DavidHorn]

Oh my.

Mostly (and predictably) I agree with what Tom is saying ... there are so many 'web designers' out there with a copy of FrontPage and a bunch of clipart. It's a joke. But there's a top end of the market where professional design / development companies 'exist' that is knowledgeable and profitable for us.

As was stated in a previous post / discussion, I've nothing against these 50 pound designers - I've had a few contracts from people who were fed up with their designs and decided to free up more budget and get the job done with me. That's fine with me.

It's the same in any profession though - you get what you pay for. There's plenty of cheap plumbers / lawyers / builders / etc. out there, but do you want to hire them? Why is your website (your online business) less important than your legal affairs - or your plumbing?

Claire - would you accept a commission for a piece of artwork knowing that you were only going to get paid if it improved my quality of life? Probably not. You let your portfolio speak for itself ... you provide references of other people who were satisfied with your work ... as with any other purchase - be it business based or consumer based, the onus is on the customer to do due diligence before a purchase.

Anyway, I guess the question was: why so many web designers on this forum. My answers would be:

a) It's a good place to network ... I've been on the forum only about 2 weeks ... I've made 2 solid business contacts - one of which has led to work, the other of which is providing invaluable advice to me.

b) To provide help to others when I have expertise that others may not. Everyone likes to feel useful, loved and wanted (don't we?). Joining and contributing to a forum is a good way to achieve that.

David

 

[Coding Monkey]

A web designer will always snear at DIY sites but that's not the point, 'does it work?' is the only question that matters.

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

You kinda said it yourself there. Their first attempt. Clearly not the success it could have been. When building websites and choosing someone to build them, I'd demand WC3, CSS over tables, cross-browser compatability etc etc blah blah, yet I don't demand it when looking at a home made website and certainly wouldn't care about them, but I'd still not buy from them for their lack of commitment to their company, and my lack of trust in that, whether it's true or not.

I also wouldn't sneer at a home made website if it did work, but I've yet to see one that couldn't be altered to significantly increase sales.

 

[Optegris]

I like to see Amazon's first attempt......

Earliest I could fins was October 13, 1999

http://web.archive.org/web/19991013091817/http://amazon.com/

Not a huge amount of difference to how it is now

 

[Richard Conyard]

I guess that is because Amazon isn't a person, but they hired in a team of professionals.

 

[Dermot]

Earliest I could fins was October 13, 1999

http://web.archive.org/web/19991013091817/http://amazon.com/

Not a huge amount of difference to how it is now

Amazon isnt the most attractive website, but does it have to be?

For me it's really about the functionality, searchability and navigation structure. Im not saying im a perfect designer, but I feel I have the ability to put together a professional looking and working website.

I know not to fall into the trap of animated gifs, clipart and musical backgrounds....even saying that sounds amateurish though!

 

[Richard Conyard]

This went out a while back, might help clear up the line between des and dev (or it might not )

"Looking good Billy Ray, Feeling good Lewis"

If you've not seen Trading Places it follows the story of two people from different backgrounds, how they handle switching roles and how much better they work together. The past few years have seen designers and programmers independently moving into the field of web design. The result is often feeling good or looking good, but rarely both.

First impressions count, designs from talented designers regardless of background will invariably look good. Whilst print work looks the same in your clients hands as it did leaving the printers, websites have to look good on a range of different places.

HTML (the language behind web pages), is not a design language. A good web designer will know how to use HTML to produce web sites that look good on a variety of different screens, browsers and computers; and that they can be viewed using a modem or broadband without a long wait. This has led to a number of print houses partnering with web design houses to ensure that the right impression is made.

A lot of companies now have a website. Normally a few pages saying about the company along with the address, telephone number and maybe a shop, but websites can do more.

With broadband and good programming websites can act as a hub for your business handling all of the mundane tasks to get real ROI. Some of the areas that websites can manage are stock control, document management, client tracking, video and animation, time sheets and supply chain integration. If it can be done on a computer it is likely is can be integrated into a website.

Looking good and feeling good relies on both designer and programmer working in tandem to produce the best results for your company. With a good web design company you get functionality that is usable; you get both style and substance. In choosing a web design company make sure the company has the best of both so they can ensure your website is working for you.

 

[cjd]

Oh, Amazon is much older than that - it started without tabs if I remember rightly......must have been early mid 90s.

You can get away with DIY if you have something new and intersting - but if you're going to sell, say, books, the level of the bar is now set very high.

 

[SuffolkDesigns]

The question should also be asked, how many "web designers" on UKBF are actually registered companies

 

[Coding Monkey]

Fair point, Tony. Registered on April Fool's day last year. But we're not a joke

And that's pretty much how I'd explain it, Richard. I see many graphic designers make awful websites because of browser issues as they don't understand what they're doing.