SEO success is not the same as failure

[Ali-v-8]

I have read some post about "seo prices", "seo is it worth it", "seo vs PPC" .....etc

The common thing that I have noticed is the negative comments come from people who have got cheap SEO which has failed to gain results that they wanted.

You pay for what you get and if you pay the right amount for a good SEO guy you wont have a negative thing to say about SEO.

Its the same with PPC. It works if it is done correctly. If you got someone like Steve Gibson to do your PPC instead of Joe Blogg (please dont tell me that joe blogg ppc manager exists) then you will get affective results.

Same with SEO. its not just a question of getting an SEO to do the work, its a question of getting a SEO with proven track records.

Choosing a backstreet mechanic is cheaper but dont cry if your wheel falls off when your driving along.

 

[harryboon]

 

[Mystro]

Pay Cheap pay twice as they say,

The problem is and what a lot of people are moaning about even the crap Seo's charge a lot and how do you know the difference until it's too late.

The only way to avoid that is to do your homework, ask questions then ask more questions,

Don't buy from a pretty website just because its pretty
Don't be fooled by the BS salesman

Do ask for example work and phone those customers
Do ask for a full explanation of what your getting for your money


Paul

 

[Ali-v-8]

You have a few formats that can be utilised on google.
PPC, SEO, Maps, Shopping, Video, Images.

Yes i said images.
Images can help convert people who dont know what they are looking for.

 

[directmarketingadvice]

You pay for what you get and if you pay the right amount for a good SEO guy you wont have a negative thing to say about SEO.

I don't know about that.

I'd agree "buy cheap and regret it". But is it true to say that anyone that's expensive will get the job done?

There's an SEO company near me - on p1 for "search engine optimisation" - that I suspect are expensive, but I also heard they got their own site banned for using black hat methods.

If they used those methods for their own site, presumably they weren't white hat with their clients' sites.

What this forum needs is a "buyer's guide to SEO".

The problem is that too much of what you guys do is clouded in secrecy for buyers to really know what they're paying you to do.

Steve

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

You know the difference by asking for case studies and recommendations.

 

[Ali-v-8]

Not secret, its about resources.

If you found a diamond mine would you tell all other miners where you found it.

I don't know about that.

I'd agree "buy cheap and regret it". But is it true to say that anyone that's expensive will get the job done?

There's an SEO company near me - on p1 for "search engine optimisation" - that I suspect are expensive, but I also heard they got their own site banned for using black hat methods.

If they used those methods for their own site, presumably they weren't white hat with their clients' sites.

What this forum needs is a "buyer's guide to SEO".

The problem is that too much of what you guys do is clouded in secrecy for buyers to really know what they're paying you to do.

Steve

 

[directmarketingadvice]

I also heard they got their own site banned for using black hat methods.

I should point out that this was a couple of years ago. They're back in the Google index now.

(Which is why they're able to rank for "search engine optimisation".)

Sorry if I confused anyone.

Steve

 

[directmarketingadvice]

If you found a diamond mine would you tell all other miners where you found it.

No. But if I were selling diamonds, I'd be selling a product - one that the customer could look at and handle before they hand over money.

SEOs are selling a future outcome - usually without linking their fee to success (i.e. "no win, fee", rather than "no win, no fee") - and that's a very different thing.

(Also known as "selling a pig in a poke".)

Steve

 

[harryboon]

Not secret, its about resources.

If you found a diamond mine would you tell all other miners where you found it.

Ali totally agree - you will find most successful companies guard their resources and why not, it takes sometimes years to build up these resources so why would you tell the world?

 

[maxh]

People end up with a proper SEO eventually. Either first to make a great site, or later to fix any number of gob-shite SEO retards bad work.

Worst side I had: duplicate content everywhere, no backlinks, blocks of link text of their keywords, it was an IYP and only supported free search i.e. no results were indexable i.e. it didn't even work!

 

[directmarketingadvice]

You mean if Amazon had just come to you they could have had all their SEO done for £250 and not had to employ so many people to do it? Man they must be kicking themselves.

Do Amazon do SEO?

Steve

 

[directmarketingadvice]

People are spending upto £1000 to some self-appointed expert and its not necessary.

See, this is what I mean about a need for a buyer's guide.

One person says one thing, another says the opposite.

And, because of the opaque nature of SEO, we non-SEOs don't know who to believe.

It's not my problem. I'm not selling SEO or buying it. But for those of you who are involved in SEO (as buyers or sellers), surely this is a problem?

Steve

 

[harryboon]

Steve aren't you at all interested in SEO, I feel rightly or wrongly (prob the later) that because you specialise in PPC you think that's the only way to go?

I find PPC great can't knock it, we use many tools to help sites rank not just traditional SEO.

Your major keywords from your site you don't even rank for, yet surely if you did a bit of SEO you would rank and get more business.

This is purely my opinion and I don't expect everyone to agree - but I feel SEO & PPC go hand in hand as well as a number of other internet marketing skills in promoting websites well.

Anyway just my thoughts, I will wait for the backlash

 

[mattsaw]

What this forum needs is a "buyer's guide to SEO".

http://www.datadial.net/blog/index.php/2008/09/18/seo-buyers-guide-free-download/

It's a couple of years old now and could probably do with a bit of a revision, but almost all of it is still relevant.

 

[david8765]

Do Amazon do SEO?

They have an in house team which I'm guessing has cost them more than £250.

It is a big problem. There are so many people out there that have so many different experiences and levels of understanding on the subject. Even those regarded as being the biggest players in SEO disagree with eachother and put out conflicting information.

I dont envy anyone trying to buy SEO services. There are so many different factors to look at and think about. In many cases you almost as well off to just pick the people you get on with best.

 

[Ali-v-8]

By the way event domain if you are who i think you are, then the group linking at the foot of your website is how your keeping your positions.
However this is a technique used by a company called GNUS four years ago.
Funny thing happened to all the people in his group. They vanished. GNUS went bankrupt.

 

[maxh]

£250 for SEO BWAHAHAHA

Bullshit.

I would charge that for very minimal input. SEO for a proper website is a full time job for more than one person!

for that amount expect a dmoz listing, a link to google analytics and one mention in one forum. + them saying "write content, write content"

 

[directmarketingadvice]

They have an in house team .

You're right. I just did some googling and found a page looking to hire someone for that team.

I'm a little surprised. I wouldn't have thought their page titles were particularly well optimised.

Steve

 

[Ali-v-8]

It is one of the largest affiliate programmes in the world. The seo relies heavily on the links provided by their partners.

You're right. I just did some googling and found a page looking to hire someone for that team.

I'm a little surprised. I wouldn't have thought their page titles were particularly well optimised.

Steve

 

[eventdomain]

By the way event domain if you are who i think you are, then the group linking at the foot of your website is how your keeping your positions.
However this is a technique used by a company called GNUS four years ago.
Funny thing happened to all the people in his group. They vanished. GNUS went bankrupt.

My 'Group linking' (as you put it) is nothing to do with keeping my positions, and it has no bearing on SEO whatsoever - what you see are client links who pay me large sums of cash for advertising - so that's explains that one.

Like the eventdomain guy offering nothing for £250
Its simple saying i can do this or that, but the long and short of it is page one or bust.

Actually, large amounts of SEO is expensive and will cost you more than £250 over a lifetime!, there are links out there that will bring you more clients than SEOing the free SE results pages. Those weblinks on key sites, will do more for you than any free listing will.

What am I talking about? Something that goes far beyond some Title tag or description - content-based certainly, the key is something that the average biz sites dont own. But it need not cost a fortune, if you know where to look, there are amazing alternatives out there, and these are mega-companies I'm telling you.

PPC can guarantee you a position at a cost.

Yes, but like anything - everything costs and these search engines ain't going to let you have it at even low cost. Its like everyone thinks they can get free stuff, and although my company offers that, we also charge for our better services too. (sorry little sales plug there).

Its just that there's too many all fighting for the free spots in the SERPS, and its a losing battle. Its pay to be found or die:

If you're not on the web, you're dead

-- but there are degrees to which you pay and varying results. Its just its mostly a roll of the dice and finding out what works or not, and many seem content on forking out cash on stuff which won't work like they think it will or have been led to believe...

Like our friend above says - theres conflicting advice doing the rounds - question is who do you believe..

The one with the technology and the slick trigger? or the SEO approach?, and I bet the targeted search tool gets you infront of the masses quicker than any free approach going. There are some mean powerful search companies out there and most specialise and target.

 

[Ali-v-8]

Event domain: In summary you disagreed with the cost of SEO. But you also agreed that it does cost. You say that people shouldn't pay High amounts for seo and that you can guarantee results.

Well to clear it up a bit.

1) anyone who optimises a untouched website can guarantee result (eventually) but you cannot guarantee a position. You can give a money back guarantee on your service, but good SEO's need not do that, they just do what they are paid to.
2) you run a directory which in all fairness is a souped up link farm covered up as a directory.
3) basic SEO gets you so far. I will be the first to tell you that. PPC along side SEO works. However getting in the top ten will be more difficults than just metas, and titles.

 

[eventdomain]

I have hundreds of clients, where my 'directory' has delivered millions of clicks. It has good national press coverage and does a good job. It beats some european search engines for what it delivers... Mind you some of the junk that's out there these days, it wouldn't be difficult to beat that.

What SEOs do is basically fit in keywords, and that's all there is to it. Keyword stuffing is easy, but the search engines dont like it and tend to penalise those that do this. I have experienced idiots that tried to stuff keywords into my directory, and that's something we dont allow - that is NOT SEO.....

'Sports Equipment Retail in Greater London' again, is not good SEO, it is keyword stuffing.. it should be more descriptive - but we used to get this all the time, and no doubt our past clients paid an SEO to do this for them and likely paid a fair bit for it too, when they could have done this themselves and done a better job.

but anyway, I dont think SEO is worth it, its time-consuming and over-priced - for instance it cost us £400 (in our early days on the web) when we should have spent it on say PPC or paid links on niche sites.

We got kind of a result (I suppose), but the increase in traffic wasn't much, and we soon went back to our previous methods which we know works and works better for no cost to us whatsoever.

 

[mattsaw]

What SEOs do is basically fit in keywords, and that's all there is to it. Keyword stuffing is easy, but the search engines dont like it and tend to penalise those that do this. I have experienced idiots that tried to stuff keywords into my directory, and that's something we dont allow - that is NOT SEO.....

:facepalm:

 

[eventdomain]

:facepalm:

Funny, yeah. But as I happen to own a directory that experiences this to a high level, I'm telling you that this goes on as the norm.

 

[mattsaw]

Funny, yeah. But as I happen to own a directory that experiences this to a high level, I'm telling you that this goes on as the norm.

What does?

 

[eventdomain]

SEO's hitting directories, blogs etc and keyword posting for their clients.

We caught a few SEO companies out, as when we contacted the/our 'clients' that were submitted, they said they knew nothing about it, they then said "oh we use another company to do that for us".

So obvious..... I'm shocked it still goes on, but it does

 

[mattsaw]

I was actually referring to this,

What SEOs do is basically fit in keywords, and that's all there is to it. Keyword stuffing is easy,

being your understanding of SEO.

 

[harryboon]

'What SEOs do is basically fit in keywords, and that's all there is to it. Keyword stuffing is easy!'

O well guys game over we have all been caught out - really is that what you think SEO's do - 'Stuff Keywords'

 

[eventdomain]

"Oh Yes I do" "Oh no you didn't" - "He's behind you"


Besides the obvious SEO's sticking up for their incredible, ROI engine-defeating promises, the sales pitches get more insane every day. I get these lots - had one that said:

Not only is our PR4 directory highly SEO optimized, but it also receives a lot of visitors.

Obviously people haven't worked it out that you cannot beat the search engines and get every client to page 1, there just isnt enough spaces for this to be possible. And seeing as many engines count related link-swaps towards ranking, you'd need to spend your life getting the next 20'000 links to move you up a few pages in the SERPS. There are no guarantees!

Whatever you are upto, others will be doing it too, only to a larger scale than the next guy..

Thats why people pay for paid placement, bcos they cant be bothered to bugger about with SEO or link swapping. Oh, and SEO, directories nor articles will propel websites to stardom ok. What they will do is give 'presence' via links, text, or whatever.

I believe, people set up businesses to either make themselves rich or provide some easy income, and even after 11 years of the internet, people are still buying into the same old stuff, still believe they can beat the odds, or even bypass/fool/outsmart the huge search companies like google - hmmmm, i'd like to see that.

I know top, huge publishing companies that aren't anywhere near top spot, and they make millions from paid advertising. Soooo, they are obviously doing other things to get them exposure, but its not SEO.

 

[Ali-v-8]

Links on niche sites (funny thats what your offering)
SEO aint worth it? (but your telling people you'd do it for £250)
Again, Make your mind up.

And in my opinion PPC does work.
But why go to a 3rd party selling you clicks. better to go straight to the source.

but anyway, I dont think SEO is worth it, its time-consuming and over-priced - for instance it cost us £400 (in our early days on the web) when we should have spent it on say PPC or paid links on niche sites.

 

[eventdomain]

"put up or shut up"

Its easy, site owners need to do this okay: Its called doing this yourself. There you go, I just saved a ton of people at least £500 in SEO fees.

You do need to put in some effort you know, nobody will hand this to you on a plate

But why go to a 3rd party selling you clicks. better to go straight to the source.

Actually, PPC ads are expensive, will incur regular fees, no guarantees of success, open to click fraud, and your ads will be out-bid very quickly, thus driving the costs up to you just to compete.

Plus the engines are too general for conversions to work well enough, and PPC weblinks wont be counted towards anything, and their not permanent adverts nor links either, which means you have to keep paying for the buggers..

I got talking to a client, who was spending £200 a month on PPC, turns out he was losing 25% to click fraud - that's £600 a year loss!!

 

[david8765]

Its easy, site owners need to do this okay: Its called doing this yourself.

So you can save people money by telling them to do it themselves rather than hiring anyone?

The whole reason people go to professionals of any kind is that they cant/dont want to do it themselves. Its like servicing a car, its really easy to do it yourself but the majority of people would rather pay money to get someone else to do it (myself included)

 

[Ali-v-8]

So how is your website differing.

Its easy, site owners need to do this okay: Its called doing this yourself. There you go, I just saved a ton of people at least £500 in SEO fees.

You do need to put in some effort you know, nobody will hand this to you on a plate



Actually, PPC ads are expensive, will incur regular fees, no guarantees of success, open to click fraud, and your ads will be out-bid very quickly, thus driving the costs up to you just to compete.

Plus the engines are too general for conversions to work well enough, and PPC weblinks wont be counted towards anything, and their not permanent adverts nor links either, which means you have to keep paying for the buggers..

I got talking to a client, who was spending £200 a month on PPC, turns out he was losing 25% to click fraud - that's £600 a year loss!!

 

[Ali-v-8]

I agree.

What i dont understand is what event domain is actually saying.
In one breath its do ppc in the next its bad.
In one breath its SEO is cheap in the next its expensive.
I cannot fathom his comments.

I have one more comment on his last post.
Yes its cheaper to do it yourself. So is servicing a car. But make a mistake and it could cost you in the long run.
If you use an SEO then it is his fault and his responsibility.

So you can save people money by telling them to do it themselves rather than hiring anyone?

The whole reason people go to professionals of any kind is that they cant/dont want to do it themselves. Its like servicing a car, its really easy to do it yourself but the majority of people would rather pay money to get someone else to do it (myself included)

 

[david8765]

Yes its cheaper to do it yourself. So is servicing a car. But make a mistake and it could cost you in the long run.
If you use an SEO then it is his fault and his responsibility.

I completely agree

I keep getting this vision of my someone like mum trying to SEO a business website... she can just about send an email and its taken a number of years to get her that far.

 

[eventdomain]

So you can save people money by telling them to do it themselves rather than hiring anyone?

Er, no not exactly. I never offered an 'SEO' service at all, all I said was that I know how this can be done for free. It was like a jokey post I wrote, except the knowledge isn't a joke, as I really do know how to do this for free..

If people have the money to spend, then thats fine. But others won't do that, they want the freebie solution.

 

[eventdomain]

So how is your website differing.

Ok, I was searching for hospitality info on many occasions and it was too time consuming/difficult to track down contact details/info on these type of companies. Spent 3 months looking for a venue and it annoyed me, so decided to put all this event-related stuff into a single place, to make it easy for the searcher.

1. Faster for the user

2. Highly targeted for the advertiser

its what's known as a 'vertical portal' - a window to other sites, except in this case niche companies. It's exclusive...

People spend hours on the site, and do their searches in 2 or 3 visits, so its faster than going to say Google. Its fragmented, where Google isn't.

In one breath its do ppc in the next its bad

Firstly I never said don't do PPC. What I said was:

PPC is expensive

many can't afford it.

 

[Ali-v-8]

I beg to differ.
You offered it at £250. and you said if it failed you would only give back £100
The post is at the beginning of this thread.

Seo's can read you know.

Er, no not exactly. I never offered an 'SEO' service at all, all I said was that I know how this can be done for free.

 

[eventdomain]

I beg to differ.

You offered it at £250. and you said if it failed you would only give back £100

The post is at the beginning of this thread.

It was a joke, don't take it so seriously. If you think a couple of lines of text, even remotely suggests a genuine sales pitch, then you're crazy.

This is so hilarious, its classic. I've got better things to do than offer SEO services, and wouldn't want to be associated with such a thing lol.

So you can get as angry as you like, the joke had nothing to do with you anyway. And thats why you're wrong and totally out of order.