SEO self-help thread

[sandpetra]

Natureday - as this is a self help thread why not join us in letting people in on what you actually did to get into Google etc and ranked well. For instance are you white hat or black hat?

It would be more useful than "spend an hour". If I spend an hour in bed thinking about number 1 in Google sometimes i can achieve it....until the next morning.

 

[natureday]

Our product works amazingly well! We have alomost a thousand testimonials from males and females.
There is another site that we have that sells weight loss and I think we are still top 20- at least on yahoo.
I don't want to give that url out cause it will look like I am spamming
Anna

 

[sandpetra]

hmmmm....really?

I wonder if I can find it?

 

[natureday]

Actually thought plays a huge part in it- so yes spend an hour a day in bed and your thoughts will manifest what you want into reality.
My methods are very much white hat.
I just used to spread my url around in sites that wanted urls or huge high page rank sites like
hi5 com
help com
myspace com
zaadz com
pbase com
alexa com
Sites like those.
And then here is a huge list of sites that you can submit your site to:
turn key
webpros
com/directories-list.html

I can't give yo uthe full url cause this site won;'t let me.

It would be more useful than "spend an hour". If I spend an hour in bed thinking about number 1 in Google sometimes i can achieve it....until the next morning.

 

[sandpetra]

reallythin.something perhaps? Do you clean teeth too?

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Anyone thinking of packing in the rest of advertising and getting on the organic, natural or free advertising gravy boat needs to take a trip right back to reality.

Why?

What would be "unreal" about being #1 for a very highly searched term and enjoying the money from that free traffic?

Steve

 

[sandpetra]

Why?

What would be "unreal" about being #1 for a very highly searched term and enjoying the money from that free traffic?

Steve

Hi Steve. "free traffic" thru being number 1 is great - but how many people sit atop google for a money keyterm without expense in either time or money? - ergo - the traffic is not free.

 

[PeteA]

Brian your forum looks very good, haven't managed to register yet but I will

 

[PeteA]

Also if an SEO expert cannot maintain their own site on the first page of Google how would they do with someone elses site over the long term.

It may be one thing to get a high placement but keeping it, this is another matter.

 

[I, Brian]

Also if an SEO expert cannot maintain their own site on the first page of Google how would they do with someone elses site over the long term.

A point to remember is that a website can be great for client acquisition - but a SEO can only work with a limited set of clients.

And these clients can keep you so busy that you simply don't have either the time - or the need - to push your site rankings for client acquisition.

On saying that, some companies do - SEO companies with aggressive sales forces are interested only in client acquisition, rather than actually delivering proper SEO services. Read this on how a recent SEO fell down - all sales, no services, despite once having some of the leading lights in the industry on their payroll: http://www.evankroberts.com/2007/01/why-i-believe-websourced-marketsmart.html

Bottom line is that a good company needs to look after it's clients - and sometimes that means putting self-promotion of your own company into a second place to preserve client interests.

However, on saying that, there are of course SEO companies that have no presence precisely because they don't have the resources.

As before, be suspicious and cautious, and don't fall for easy promises.

 

[sandpetra]

The constant battle to stay top of google on any search term for client or own company is a challenge to every seo.

Speaking from personal experience I prefer to work with clients for long periods, and i still work for retail and loans clients and colleges(which we won an award for last year!) 6 and 3 years later respectively. Of course, we need to bend over backwards for clients - which involves a lot of sleepless nights! (If your seo guy is not a bleary eyed, ipod loving, irn-bru addicted seo obsessive with a short attention span and distinct disregard for fashion then you're talking to the wrong guy in the agency!)

As a small organisation I do not accept the fact that larger seo companies do not have the time to continue bolster their own seo positions while adressing client needs. After all dont they have the resources? The best minds in the business? A good seo is obsessed. It takes time to get to the top of google - and no-one just stops an obsession like that - throws away sometimes years of work for no reason.

I think the fact that some seo companies lose position to more obsessive start ups and SMEs can be because up to date research is not filtering through the organisation. When we find something works for a client, we immediately address our own site, and likewise.

Sometimes when someone critical leaves an organisation, positions can falter too. At the end of the day you cant really be taught seo - you have got to experience it. Over time. There's no substitute for testing and failing pr testing and succeeding.

What are you paying your seo? I can tell you honestly no one company could pay for all the hours (largely research) that we put into seo - our obsession. We get round this by carrying out the research on our own site or partner sites - so improving our position in Google and in turn getting new business through Google, and learning something new to deploy on clients sites.

We are just a young company (although I have worked for the clients in other organisations since 2000).

An seo who says he doesnt want to be top of google (or on the first page)? I cant believe it!

Phew! I hope you get the jist but I'm off to a meeting now! Got a client to keep happy!

 

[PeteA]

However, on saying that, there are of course SEO companies that have no presence precisely because they don't have the resources.

Or worse they don't know how to achieve it.

 

[I, Brian]

Absolutely right.

But it's worth remembering that the organic results don't show a natural set of recommendations, but as much who is most aggressively seeking ranking for SEO keywords.

I can only think of two out all the high profile SEO's in the industry who actually rank for SEO keywords. Much is done simply by referrals and word of mouth.

I also know some companies rank for the keywords because they place advertising links on their client sites for themselves. IMO this is simply not good business practice, to try and stand on clients for self-promotional purposes.

2c.

 

[PeteA]

Brian,

Do you think that setting up a website with its own mechanism for adding regular on theme unique content and one for adding external links is something most site owners should consider?

 

[I, Brian]

I think there are certainly instances where it could be recommended, for example:

1. Articles/Reference

Articles or similar that will help provide further information - not simply around the products/services being sold, but also to funnel potential buyers towards your own offerings.

2. News

Providing news and latest information on the industry can bring in significant traffic, and with the right positioning, even make you a focus of the industry itself.

3. Blog

A constantly updated blog can be a magnet for conversation that draws attention to a company, or else simply be used for Public Relations purposes.

4. Community/forums

A community - such as a forum - where you can not simply offer customer support, but also encourage Permission Marketing of the member base, and also add the branding factor for casual traffic who find the site in searches.


However, all of the above will likely require a significant investment of time and money to build up to any great significance. Sometimes they may suit a client's needs, but sometimes it may seem a distraction from the core selling process. It really depends on exactly what the individual goals are - and in terms of specifics rather than generics.

Hope that helps.

 

[PeteA]

Having another opinion cetainly helps, thanks.

We have an article and resource section on our site, I view them as essential, for self SEO purposes.

My other question is....

If a person uses posting on a forum as a means to build up links, is it worthwhile? And if yes, does the popularity of the site matter. For example the difference between leaving a link here or on www.highrankings.com

T

 

[sandpetra]

If its a useful link put it in - simple as that. Otherwise dont. Remember Google loves links - although it is thought forum signatures are devalued compared to links in text.

Some forums and blogs tell Google to ignore all the links (secretly in code) - think of your forum time as ways to get people on your site, and you'll be ok.

Dont spam with links with nothing to say (I see you clearly dont do that).

 

[I, Brian]

Signatures used to have real value, but over the past couple of years Google has implemented various changes that have significantly devalued them.

Personally, I wouldn't consider them a serious part of a link development campaign, because there are far more effective methods out there.

If you get something from signature links, it's a bonus.

2c.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Signatures used to have real value, but over the past couple of years Google has implemented various changes that have significantly devalued them.

Personally, I wouldn't consider them a serious part of a link development campaign, because there are far more effective methods out there.

If you get something from signature links, it's a bonus.

2c.

I am not sure about that have a look at this:

Google Bose Horsham

I only put it in my signature a couple of weeks ago to try and promote the recent Bose entry on the Visit Horsham Site. This entry now ranks no.1 over the TBO entry who have a much bigger SEO budget (including a full time SEO who is a member of this site). The 3rd entry (excluding the additional results) is a recent UKBF entry containing BOSE in my signature.

Further down the results page are several relevant sites that should by rights rank far higher than a forum signature.

Brian do you have any thoughts about my 301 query I made earlier in this thread?

Regards

Dotty

 

[Tin]

I'd agree with Brian's point here. Forum link spamming (i've added the word 'spamming' in there as that's what most clueless seo's only seem able to do) has been around since the invention of the seo wheel.
Join a forum.
Add as many links in your sig as you can get away with.
Resurrect 'Graveyard threads' and add one liners just to get your links in.
Jump into current posts add really short contributions, just to get your links in.
Move to other forums and repeat the process.

In short, when I see this method being deployed clearly for the intention of link building it really tells me how little that person knows about seo in general.

Are these people even aware how to check if a forum is allowing links to be followed?

 

[DotNetWebs]

So Tin are you saying I am a clueless spammer who knows little about SEO?

In addition to designing, coding and marketing this site I have been getting some great local results which have directly contributed to further sign ups.

As much as I respect SEO's like yourself I currently have higher priority things to spend my money on and am quite pleased with the results that I am getting.

 

[Tin]

Sorry Dotty, took me so long to type my post (phone kept ringing) that you had got in before me. I was simply agreeing with 'I, Brian'.

My point was there is so much more to seo and people should be aware that links from forums are much devalued these days.

Ray

 

[DotNetWebs]

I am not saying I disbelieve you but did you look at my example?

How do you explain that a (very recent) post about a Buffalo hard drive is ranked over a post about AV equipment in Horsham containing information about Bose at Horsham.

Or above a post titled Bose at Horsham with a hyphenated url containing the title and a full listing about the business in question?

Regards

Dotty

ps how long before this appears over the buffalo thread

 

[PeteA]

My own opinion on things like this is

Linking to forums, directories, keywords, url with keywords, the use of hyphens, tags, search engine submissions, link building, anchor text etc etc

Should all be viewed as slices of a cake, some slices are more important and will be thicker, some not so important, they are the thin slices. However to have the whole cake you need all the pieces.

Maybe I am wrong, these are just my own thoughts.

 

[Tin]

Sorry Dotty, took me so long to type my post (phone kept ringing) that you had got in before me. I was simply agreeing with 'I, Brian'.

As I said I was replying to the post above yours and no, I had not had a look at your example.

It appears that there is a genuine misunderstanding here and we are talking at cross purposes. All I would say is that Google is scratching to find many pages that are about Bose Horsham and it's having to factor in pages that are very weakly connected to the keywords, that's why it's pulling in one of UKBF's threads. It's an extremely easy serp to get to the top of Google but no-one seems to have gone for it. A little seo on the right page will get it there without sig links.

Aplogies but I'm snowed under with work and probably won't have a chance to reply again on this same issue, hope we see each other more clearly now.

Ray

 

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry Tin I missed the point that your reply was to the post before mine. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

With regards to this thread in general:

I think for businesses with a least a basic knowledge of SEO (which lets face it every web designer/developer should have) the decision to outsource the SEO work will largely depend on the competitiveness of the market place that they are going for.

If I was launching an national online mortgage company then I would need to employ or out source a full time SEO to have any chance of succeeding.

As I am now working almost exclusively in the local internet market it is (currently) less competitive and on a page by page basis less significant to the business as a whole. If a few forums posts or links can help the process then it is worth trying.

The most important thing to remember is that SEO is only part of a successful web business. How big a part depends on the type of business you are doing. If the business does not warrant it there is absolutely no point in spending all you money on SEO when it could be bring greater returns to your business by spending it elsewhere.

Regards

Dotty

 

[I, Brian]

I am not sure about that have a look at this:
Google Bose Horsham

The point I'm making is that a couple of years ago you could probably "own" the single keywords "Bose" and "Horsham" and a PR5 or 6 to boot, on your signature links alone.

Now they've been much more devalued.

I think it's great you've got a ranking with signature links - but for anything really competitive, I wouldn't put much stock in their individual impact.

Brian do you have any thoughts about my 301 query I made earlier in this thread?

Sorry, Dotty - I'm afraid I missed that - could you repeat the question, please?

 

[I, Brian]

My own opinion on things like this is

Linking to forums, directories, keywords, url with keywords, the use of hyphens, tags, search engine submissions, link building, anchor text etc etc

Should all be viewed as slices of a cake, some slices are more important and will be thicker, some not so important, they are the thin slices. However to have the whole cake you need all the pieces.

Absolutely agreed - you're basically talking about a multi-tiered strategy which I think is key to rankings.

If the cake is the ranking objective, then there are different link methods that will provide enough "slice" to achieve that. You don't need all the different slices - sometimes one will do it - but using different slices can make for a more stable ranking.

2c.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry, Dotty - I'm afraid I missed that - could you repeat the question, please?

Hi Brian this is a cut and paste from a question I posed earlier in this thread. It seemed to have got missed when we started talking about breast enhancing pills

Talking of 301ing. I have often read that if you own a .com and a .co.uk should 301 the secondary domain to you primary domain.

I have tried this with some of my sites but not with others. I am still not convinced this is necessary but am open to persuasion.

Have a look at this:

Google Horsham Forum

If I 301 the .co.uk to the .com will I not then loose the second listing?

On MSN I could loose even more listings as I have practicably the whole front page:

MSN Horsham Forum

Any thoughts?

Regards

Dotty

 

[sandpetra]

Sorry Dot

I meant to reply to this.

Yes you probably will lose one at some point - wether you 301 or not. The problem is that google is treating these domains at the moment as two different sites. You can see you have no Google PR for the .co.uk domain - I would redirect this to the .com.

The thing is Google will probably dump one anyway at some point becuse the content is the same.

At the moment, you leave yourself open to duplicate content filters. I'd just point the .co.uk to the .com in your domain name control package rather than 301.

 

[DotNetWebs]

......At the moment, you leave yourself open to duplicate content filters. I'd just point the .co.uk to the .com in your domain name control package rather than 301.

Thanks for the reply Shaun.

Although I have no Page Rank for the .co.uk I quite like the fact that I have the two top listing on Google and most of the 1st page on MSN. I run this site on a dedicated server so I have full control over the domains and the DNS. At the moment I have four domains tied to a single IIS website. (I also have southwaterforum.com and southwaterforum.co.uk).

If duplicate filters kick in am I right in assuming it will probably dump the .co.uk and leave the .com (as this has page rank and is the one that is most linked too). If this is the case I would rather let nature take its course and maintain the current advantage I have with two listings. If I redirect the .co.uk I will automatically lose the second listing anyway won't I?

I am just trying to weigh up the pros and cons for 4 domains vs single domain etc.

Regards

Dotty

 

[I, Brian]

Why not simply add separate content to one of the sites, with links going through to the other?

That way you can maintain both listings, and also provide some link benefit to the other?

If you go that route, for the changed site, it would be helpful to have a few unique pages on it.

2c.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Why not simply add separate content to one of the sites, with links going through to the other?.........

Thanks for that.

I have been thinking about this but as the site in question is a forum all of the content is database driven and common across each domain. I do already have separate skins available and I suppose I could maintain two different versions, each with a unique skin, but I would imagine that the site would still be seen as ‘duplicate content’.

I am not really bothered about it at the moment as this is not exactly a competitive site. It was more a hypothetical question in case I do find myself involved with a site in a similar situation but with more at stake.

Regards

Dotty

 

[I, Brian]

No, I don't mean simply reskin the site - simply have one as the forum, and the other as having a handful of pages, perhaps based on forum highlights.

That way you keep two unique sites plus potential link benefits from the one that links to the forum.

You can see I have a links bias.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Thanks Brian

I see where you are coming from. As I said at the moment I have no need to try and boost the site's ranking. Should I ever have the need to I will give this some consideration.

Regards

Dotty

 

Having just found this thread I spent an hour or so reading it.

lot of good info,lot of poor info,lot of going round in circles.

one thing I will comment on which seems to be of concern is.

how do you tell a good SEO,well the average guy can't.

But my guidlines would not be for the company who gets No 1 on google for "SEO" that only shows they can get there own company up there for SEO !

It would be for the guy who has top ranking across a broad and competative range of products and industries.

And I mean broad and lots of em.

I am still smiling


Earl

 

[abeer42]

HI

You are correct, there are some good information about seo and some really bed info. but i think someof the info is really useful to me.