Self employed sales executives - I am angry!

[Ryan000001]

Hi all,

Ok, so it's 4am and I can't sleep after coming across a job listing on one of the mainstream job sites which is titled "Self Employed Media Sales Executive".

It has made me so angry that I need to get it out. I realise it is slightly controversial and I'm sure that it will spark a good debate.

Before I proceed I just want to state that anything contained within this post is my own personal opinion and is no way connected with my business or any company that I have connections with.

Here is the actual job listing (I am taking out the name of the company for obvious reasons)

....................................................................................................

Location: [removed]
Salary: Commission Based, uncapped
Job Type: Permanent (8.30am - 5.00pm, Mon-Fri)
Company: [removed]
Contact: [removed]

...... is seeking a talented, Digital Sales Account Executive to join our current sales team. .......... is the Midlands leading lifestyle magazine in print and online, featuring Fashion, Health & Beauty, Property & Interiors, Wining & Dining, People & Places and Leisure and reaching over 100,000 people in print and [URL removed] attracting 40,000 unique hits per month. If you are looking for a career in digital advertising sales this may be the opportunity for you.

The qualified candidate will be responsible for driving digital sales revenue for the company. This person will have the ability to work with our experienced sales team to sell [URL removed] and its portfolio of digital products and services to help companies dynamically increase their online presence.

Responsibilities:
* Identify client needs through a consultative sales approach.
* Outline and deliver effective sales presentations and recommendations to current and prospective clients.
* Prospect and develop a strong customer base for all digital sales solutions offered by [URL removed]

Join our growing company, established in 2002, working in one of the most dynamic market places in digital media. We are looking for high energy individuals with outstanding interpersonal skills to develop our digital revenues.

Working alongside our company we will support your growth and on-going sales training with leads, advanced sales tools and an attractive commission package designed to reward you for your initiative.

If you have the following qualifications we want to hear from you.
* Ability to succeed in a competitive environment
* Strong closing and communicating skills
* Excellent work ethic
* Self-starter attitude
* Prior selling experience preferred

If you have the drive to succeed and looking for an opportunity that will allow you to grow, then we can meet and exceed your expectations.

FULL TIME APPLICANTS ONLY ARE PREFERRED.

We work primarily with B2B clients. If you have experience in advertising, marketing, sales, public relations, communications, sports, entertainment, promotion, customer service, sales management, administration, retail recreation, sales training or finance we have an interest in you.

For you as a self-employed sales agent it means the opportunity to earn uncapped commission through a company who can help you make it. You will utilise our extensive database of information to determine where the right areas are and which type of customers you should focus on.

As a Self-Employed Media Sales Executive you can earn a GENUINE £28,000 ote, but remember this is uncapped.

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So let's get this right or am I missing something? This company is advertising for a 'self employed media sales executive' and expects the successful candidate(s) to work full time from their offices from 8.30am-5pm Monday-Friday!?

One of the fundamental reasons that a freelance/self employed/commission only (however you want to label it) sales agent chooses to work as a freelancer is because they essentially want to work as their own boss, on their own terms and with companies that have great products and services which they can add to their portfolio.

In my opinion this company wants to take all of that away and expects the candidate to work from their premises, on a full time basis, without a wage and with a "GENUINE" OTE of only £28k.

Some of the reasons that experienced freelance sales executives choose to work for themselves are because they:

A). Have complete confidence in their sales ability.
B). Sometimes wish to work with more than one company and choose to work with companies which have products and services they believe in and wish to add to their portfolio.
C). Want to be entrepreneurial and work as if they are running their own company.
D). Not face the restrictions that full time employees have.
E). Have worked in a specific industry for years and have extensive contacts which they can utilise when choosing which companies to work for.

Not because they are desperate for work and will take anything going.

This 'so called' self employed job listing, in my eyes is an absolute scandal and borderline exploitation!

I'm keeping this short and I don't want to get too worked up because no decent freelance sales executive in their right mind would even consider applying for this position, but it makes my blood boil.

In my eye's this is everything that is wrong with the perception of companies that are looking to take on freelancers for the right reasons today. This is the type of company that gives other companies looking to build freelance sales teams a real bad name.

There are plenty of genuine companies out there with great products and services to offer, especially in this day and age when innovative new technologies are being produced by inspirational companies. These are the companies that put together great commission based packages and at the same time respect their freelancers right not to be treated like an employee without a wage.

In order to build a successful team of freelance sales agents you have to understand why someone chooses to work as a freelancer. Not because jobs are scarce and you want someone on the cheap!

I recently started a UK Business Forum discussion titled: Commission Only Sales Agents - Company Strategy which further explores my views on what it takes to build and run a successful team of freelance sales agents.

I invite comments and would love to hear your opinions...

 

Ryan,


You cannot lay down so many criteria and then claim that someone is self employed, so the advert is total tosh, setting working hours and asking them to come to an office etc, they could prove they are employees

Individuals will suck it and see and if the work is ok, then they stay

Not sure why you would be annoyed at this?
Just imagine you never read it and get some sleep

By the way I only scanned this as I have already read War and Peace

 

[Ryan000001]

I know and i'm paying for the late night today I tell you.

I guess I'm on a mission to change things within the Freelance sales field that's all.

I believe that there are so many great companies and fantastic freelance sales professionals out there which are a great fit together and a 'job' listing like this is the perfect example of how not to build a successful freelance sales team.

Anyway rant over

 

[Sheaman]

Hi I see many sales jobs and sites just like this one and I even think I know the company that posted this job.
It's up to the individual if they want the job, they can ask all questions they want to at interview stage or even before if they email or ring them up.

Just for the record though, I've never applied for a job like that.


Sent from my iPhone
Travelling through cyberspace ain't like dustin crops.

 

[kate1]

To be honest, no person should work on commission sales only unless its a fantastic, all swinging, all dancing product. Also, one person cannot work for one person for more than one year, otherwise they would have to be employed by that company.

Once again, all risk to the freelancer and no risk to the company - cheap labour, sorry thats how I see it. If a company is not prepared to risk any money, or sell themselves, it just wont work out. Been in sales for 21 years, and I know nobody at all that has made a success out of this type of thing. If your a good salesperson, you would be in a job that offers the financial benefits that you deserve

 

[Ryan000001]

Kate,

With all due respect, and we have discussed this before, I think you are missing the point I am trying to make.

There are two types of sales people. Those who do very well as employees and those who don't. There are lots of great sales people out there who are also entrepreneurial and want to work for themselves without all of the restrictions that come from being someones employee.

Every business and company owner in the world works freelance without a guaranteed wage. It is absolutely nothing new. These people simply choose not to be an employee for a company and work for themselves while at the same time enjoying all of the benefits that comes with living and working on your own terms.

You are right though and this is not a life which is suited to everyone.

Every business needs products and services in order to do business. This is also true for sales people. An entrepreneurial sales agent can become self employed and choose the companies they want to work with and build a portfolio of products and services which they know they can either learn to sell, or utilise their existing database of contacts within a field they might have been working in for many years.

So, instead of having to go out there and create products and services, an entrepreneurial sales agent can become self employed and build a portfolio (of any size they desire) of products and services which they can sell. The only stipulation being that the companies they work with do not have conflicting interests.

The thing that angers me about the advert is that the company wants to take away the very core reason that a employee wants to become a freelancer. It makes no sense and my only reasoning is that they do not understand the reasons why a freelancer chooses to be a freelancer.

 

[kate1]

Yes and all due respect Ryan. I understand that, so out of one sale would a commission only person expect to earn? I would consider it if I made £250- £500 a sale, that would be bottom line, for me to spend all day on the phone, at my own expense - that would be the minimum

 

[directmarketingadvice]

One of the fundamental reasons that a freelance/self employed/commission only (however you want to label it) sales agent chooses to work as a freelancer is because they essentially want to work as their own boss, on their own terms and with companies that have great products and services which they can add to their portfolio.

Perhaps another reason is that they don't want to have their earnings capped and want to be paid on results? (Because they can earn so much more that way.)

I'm really not sure what the big deal is about this. If the job doesn't appeal, don't apply.

 

[kate1]

Its not about two type of sales people - its about product

Again I will say, unless the company has sold it themselves - its a no goer, (unless a high rateable value on return for time put in) very easy. If the company doesnt invest, they have no faith - something for nothing AGAIN

 

[Esk247]

I see those job adverts all the time. Our local job centre is full of them. They rebrand the odd one as 'Business Development Managers'

When you read the blurb you usually find the following paragraph:

Self employed people are expected to pay their own NI Contributions and relevant taxes.

Car, Phone and Laptop required before application.

Call Tim (mobile number)

I counted at least 19 adverts like that or very similar but with different names in just the Scarborough area last week.

I'm thinking about taking someone on to do sales for our wholesale business next month, as i'm rubbish at face to face or phone conversations. But even I know that I can't expect someone to work for me full time, they'd have to earn themselves a decent hourly/daily rate of pay and would be free to work for other companies. They've got to earn a living and put food on the table.

 

[kate1]

Its not the best way to go, comm only people, disaster, it never works. Bottom line, the sales person always suffers.,because the business person hasnt got the funds to invest

 

[directmarketingadvice]

Its not the best way to go, comm only people, disaster, it never works.

Never? Not even once? You've done the legwork and studied every case? Or are you just assuming?

 

[Esk247]

Its not the best way to go, comm only people, disaster, it never works. Bottom line, the sales person always suffers.,because the business person hasnt got the funds to invest

but equally its a bigger risk for us taking someone on full time if they can't do the job when it comes down to it.

I've seen sales people get very lazy when they get full time employment contracts. They start off very well but then they drift a bit.

I'd prefer someone part time or commission only over a period of time with a view to permanent 12 month contract if they achieve realistic sales targets.

 

[kate1]

21 years you would have thought I would never ever would do comm sales unless the person asking me can provide proof that their product sells - never I dont need to though...............always flegdling businesses asking for the earth without any investment themselves. Quite happy to discuss arangements but would never take on my time to risk somebody elses business - you pay for what you get. You get somebody sincere who wants to help.............. but you have to pay for that

 

[Ryan000001]

Yes I agree that the product is essential, so is the company, training and remuneration package.

This is not just merely my opinion, I actually run a large and very successful team of freelance sales agents who are all very happy, make great money, can live life on their own terms (one of our guys just moved to Spain) and are free to work with other companies as long as there isn't a conflict of interest.

The majority of our team have come from a long background in sales and do not want to be employees anymore.

Also to note: We couldn't afford to take on full time employees when we started. We have great products, solid training and offer residual incomes which are paid every month for the life of the client. That essentially turns into a reliable income stream eventually.

 

[businessfunding]

Its not the best way to go, comm only people, disaster, it never works. Bottom line, the sales person always suffers.,because the business person hasnt got the funds to invest

Huge assumption & I have plenty of evidence to the contrary

As I have posted elsewhere, I have run mixed commission only and salaried sales teams and the performers always end up on commission only.

Also, it is entirely legit for someone to work commission only for any period of time provided certain criteria are met, these can include freedom, risk and use of resources.

It takes a certain type pf person but can be hugely rewarding.

 

[kate1]

Thing is Kickstart, im good at my job, so would never consider that proposition

Erm, no somebody cant work for you for more than a year you would have to employ them.

 

[Ryan000001]

Kate,

Firstly

If you look at my signature link you will see why I am here and what I am trying to achieve.

Secondly

<edit by mod> Are you even aware of services like Skype, Dropbox, Mindflash and Go To Meeting?..... and the list goes on....

We run our team remotely:

We use Mindflash to upload our training materials, Dropbox to store our documentation and give our consultants access to important docs such as proposals. We use Skype to stay connected and Go to Meeting to run training sessions, team meetings and also meet and demo to our clients.

We live in a world which is now free of constraints and open. So yes, our consultant living in sunny Spain has no problem working with us successfully. The only thing he needs to consider is the hour difference in time.

<edit by mod>

I might sound harsh but you aren't even engaging in conversation with me. You just assume that what I am saying is untruthful. You don't seem to have the traits of a successful salesperson, which is to engage and connect with your audience not just answer "been there, done that, doesn't work".

 

[S-Marketing]

Its not the best way to go, comm only people, disaster, it never works. Bottom line, the sales person always suffers.,because the business person hasnt got the funds to invest

That is funny.

The problem is usually that a lot of people who go for sales 'jobs' do so because they cant do, or aren't qualified to do, much else.

Anyone with a decent brain, or more specifically a decent business brain will be able to pick out the decent opportunities, asses the opportunity, structure a deal that will be mutually beneficial, and then make a shed load of cash from it.

The rest of you will just have to find jobs that pay by the hour.

 

[Ryan000001]

Actually I have just taken a step back and have been thinking about this from your point of view Kate.

I think you may have tried to work freelance in the past and it has not been a pleasant experience for you because the companies that you have been working with have had very little experience in running a freelance sales team.

What we lacked in money we made up in time, training and support for our consultants. We made sure we got our training processes, structure and support right - and we learned the hard way!

Infact I think it took nearly fifty failed freelance sales people to get right what we were doing wrong.

So I do see where you are coming from potentially.

I wrote this article on the forum last week which goes into a little detail of what it takes to run a successful team of freelance sales agents

 

[businessfunding]

Thing is Kickstart, im good at my job, so would never consider that proposition

Erm, no somebody cant work for you for more than a year you would have to employ them.

Ah yes;that will be freedom of choice

You are still wrong on the second point and I have the inspections to prove it..

 

[kate1]

Ryan, Im 41, been self employed for 11 years and in sales for 21 - seen ideas come and go, been approached by companies who are "convinced they have a fabulous product" and then they have gone - so I know a bit about this situation. I just dont buy into it, unless its an absolute niche.

 

[kate1]

Ryan, dont understand why you are using dropbox? Its not a live application. Theres other stuff like google apps that multi users can use............ and it updates in real time

 

[Ryan000001]

We use Dropbox which we give our team access to certain areas of and it seems to work but we have also used Spansafe which is really good aswell.

 

[maxine]

The only problem with the ad is that it's self employed to avoid the responsibilities of employment status (and would probably run into problems with IR35 stuff).

I think it's wrong to advertise something as a job when it isn't employment

But apart from that it's about choice

The other thing I would mention as a caution is that companies like the one placing the ad usually want a load if management reporting too on how the freelancer has spent their time Monday to Friday 8.30-5 when if I was working on a results basis they wouldn't get any management reports or pipeline info at all until it became a result or a sale

The job centre is full of ads like this and people who come of sales roles think this is the norm to work in a Jon self employed and have no idea what they are getting in to

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

21 years you would have thought I would never ever would do comm sales unless the person asking me can provide proof that their product sells - never I dont need to though...............always flegdling businesses asking for the earth without any investment themselves. Quite happy to discuss arangements but would never take on my time to risk somebody elses business - you pay for what you get. You get somebody sincere who wants to help.............. but you have to pay for that

The investment that we provide is in the training and development. This isn't free.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[Mike W]

To be honest, no person should work on commission sales only unless its a fantastic, all swinging, all dancing product.

Nonsense on 2 counts...

Many people make a great success out of commission only sales roles - most sales jobs on America are pure comm only.

If it was 'fantastic, all singing and all dancing' it wouldn't need a decent sales person. An order taker would do.

 

[maxine]

Please keep comments directly to the topic and argument itself rather than individual members. Thanks

 

[Ryan000001]

I completely agree,

There are many great companies with fantastic products and services (especially these days) which simply have to re-invest money back into the company and can not afford to take on employees.

The investment comes in the form of time and support structure given by the company to the freelancer (which is not free).

At the end of the day, it is entirely up to the sales person which companies they work with, but if they believe in the company and its products and the company is willing to invest time and support, then there is no reason why the two can't form a successful working relationship.

 

[AlexanderR]

The 1 and only reason the job advert states "self employed" is that the company doesn't have to pay minimum wage, or tax contributions. It has been done many, many times in the sales environment.

 

[Craigaroo]

Thing is Kickstart, im good at my job, so would never consider that proposition

Erm, no somebody cant work for you for more than a year you would have to employ them.

Completely inaccurate. It does not matter how long someone does work for you. Self-employed vs Employed is a question of status not time.

 

[kate1]

It isnt craig, if somebody works for the same company for a year you have to employ them thats HRMC rules, maybe one of the qualified accountants will be along to clarify the situation

 

They are not working for the company they are self employed contractors,

you are talking about being offered a temporary contract of employment initially not being self employed contractor.

 

[kate1]

Extreme, you cannot work for a company for more than 1 year otherwise they would have to employ you - its the law

 

[AlexanderR]

I know I myself did it for quite some time, and we're only employed by ourselves, with a freelance contract, which we can terminate with notice.

If the company states we can't work for others while contracted to them, that doesn't imply that we are under employ of a company. We would still be self employed agents.

Again, it comes down to the contract, and the status assigned by it, not by the length of time.

 

[S-Marketing]

It isnt craig, if somebody works for the same company for a year you have to employ them thats HRMC rules, maybe one of the qualified accountants will be along to clarify the situation

Its not good form to post inaccurate info you have picked up along the way as fact. Especially when you argue the point when challenged by people who know you are wrong.

 

[kate1]

Stretch it, its law if a company employs you for more than a year you are then looking at being employed - lets wait for an accountant to come along and clarify it

 

[S-Marketing]

Stretch it, its law if a company employs you for more than a year you are then looking at being employed - lets wait for an accountant to come along and clarify it

I don't think we are talking about identical situations. I thought we were talking about freelance sales people working on commision.

 

When did this evolve into IF A COMPANY EMPLOYS YOU

Self employed you are employed by yourself and you find contracts to work, no one is employing you they are contracting you.

 

[kate1]

Crumbs You cannot work self employed for any firm for more than a year. Otherwise they would have to employ you. Like I say wait for an accountant to come along and clarify this