Looking for experienced investor/mentor

[Innovation]

Hi Folk

As the title states I am looking for an experienced investor , not not only invest in my business adventure , but able to improve on the chance's of its success.


The company is a startup tool manufacturing company located in Middlesbrough. The founder is a seasoned professional tradesman with 24 years experience in the construction industry.

We have designed and developed the world’s first mobile vertical panel saw - multi functional 7-in-1 workstation. And offer this new concept to the construction industry which improves health and safety and also enables tradesmen to reduce operational costs. The company will be working with award winning machine specialists who are very experienced in the design and development of special purpose machinery, including machine process improvements.

tradesmen are given a lifeline to beat the recession -with the World’s 1st Mobile Vertical Panel Saw 7-in-1 Multifunctional WorkStation - Manufactured from recycled material - reduces construction waste landfill costs and the demand on raw material - Designed by a tradesman for tradesmen

Our target audience includes mobile tradesmen who have a need for the concept we can provide and who want to reduce operational costs whilst improving health and safety. They know what they want and understand that to gain a competitive edge, operational costs must be reduced which a concept such as this can create. This enables quotes to be submitted 30% lower whilst increasing profits by as much.

Our edge lies in the fact that RipRak is a first for the industry and is a patent pending concept which addresses some serious issues, the main benefit been the massive savings the operator can accumulate on a daily basis and the functionality of the concept in transforming into five workshop equivalent machines which in turn reduces material costs, 60%+ on prefabricated stock.

Based on the size of the construction industry and the target audience, we project sales of £189k in the first year, and expect to double these figures by the end of the second year, with sales of almost £700k by the end of year three.

Marketing Plan

Mobile Tradesmen are only a small part of the overall target market, which includes. Shop Fitters, Roofers, Kitchen Fitters, Signwriters.

The DIY market will also be a target with demonstrations at trade exhibitions to highlight the skill level improvement the operator can achieve by using the RipRak concept which inturn would remove the need to employ skilled labour

Another large segment would be the Property Maintenance sector that perform almost any function of housing creation and alteration and will be targeted by visiting material suppliers/builders merchants and seeking demonstrational agreements to highlight the benefits of the concept, these outlets receive a daily footfall of the target market.

Therefore, an accurate estimate of nationwide demand for our products would include a high segmentation of the construction industry. This is broken up into the following segments:

Carpentry & Joinery Professionals – Workshop Based.
Carpentry & Joinery Professionals – Mobile.
DIY & Hobby Enthusiasts – Home Based.
Furniture and Timber Product Manufacturers - Workshop Based.

We will target each group of customers by delivering through a variety of channels:

Machinery Distributors
Power Tool Retailers
DIY Outlets
Machinery & Power Tools Hire companies
Builders Merchants

*Our initial impact will be created by attending major trade shows.

*Offering in-store demonstrations within trade and retail outlets.

*Identification of key players in the ‘tool distribution’ market.

The company will have an official online presence to communicate to our target audience
with communication channels to highlight and get the word out about our business and the many benefits our concept creates, social media, blogs, email newsletters will also be part of the promotional push.

*To stay at the forefront as the market leader in innovative product introductions, with successful product launches to strengthen and satisfy the needs of the above segmentations of the construction industry, increasing market shares.

Financial Plan

The Company is pursuing an investment of £75,000, in return for 10% equity, which is required to fund RipRak Limited and enable the start of production. Initial start up funds have been used in developing the proof of concept prototype, animation development, website design, developing the company in the early stages ready for the startup phase.

The company is now ready to move into a period of rapid growth to achieve the aims and aspirations of its founder.


Return On Investment

Over the first three years we anticipate 104.5% return on investment for investors, equating to a return of 15.5% Year 1 - 29.5% Year 2 - 59% Year 3 - Early investors who pledge investment within the £37,500 bracket will be rewarded with double equity shares equating to returns of 23.5% 44.2% 88.5% respectively

Dividends Payments Total £223,777 over the three year period

*Year 1 - £28,735
*Year 2 - £62,117
*Year 3 - £132,925

These figures do not take into consideration any tax relief the investor benefits from through SEIS

Investing £10,000 In A SEIS Risks Just £200 Of Your Cash

http://www.iexpats.com/2012/12/investing-10000-in-a-seis-risks-just-200-of-your-cash/



Exit Strategy

RipRak expect to become a purchase acquisition target of an existing larger tool/machine manufacturing company looking to complement its existing products such as (Makita - Black & Decker (for example) which is a more efficient way grow their revenue capturing the anticipated growth in the tool distribution market than creating new products organically.The primary commitment over the coming years is to build and grow RipRak Limited into a sustainable profitable business model creating an exit via a sale of the company a realistic option

 

[Psl]

A rather long opening post, so I will read it later.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

A rather long opening post, so I will read it later.

Actually it is one of the few requests for capital on here that actually seems good if everything is accurate

 

[Socio South West]

It's the old Dragon's Den question... £75k for 10% of what?

It appears you have Patents pending, no sales, and no advance orders or Statements of Intent. Physical market research seems to be scant, and your claims of 'massive savings' will need to be substantiated to hold a potential investors interest.

An investor doing Due Diligence is going to be pretty exacting with your stated returns... and going to want rather a larger cut in the equity with the product and company as you state it at present.

Based on your statements, I cannot see an investor agreeing your valuation of £750k, and you need to have considerable flexibility in your position to get serious interest.

 

[Socio South West]

Had a look at the animated video too.

One aspect of your post and the video that comes across is that you don't explain what the problems are of working with panel products on site, and how your product addresses these, and consequently makes these alleged savings. Whilst a proportion of your target investors will understand the problem, a larger proportion will not: As a tradesman, you clearly understand them

 

[Merchant UK]

I think what also sets alarms off is this

"World’s 1st Mobile Vertical Panel Saw" doing a google i come up with no end of vertical panel saws being made all over the world, some look pretty old too, so i wouldn't keep using that term too much.

So basically you've invented a 7-in-1 Multifunctional WorkStation for wood workers

From what i've seen theres quite a few woodworking multifunction machines out there, why would yours be different?, Basically your asking existing tradesmen to ditch their tools and use yours instead? I can't see that happening any time soon, tradesmen take a lot of pride in their tools, some which cost several hundreds, would they be likely to stop using them and buy yours instead? I can't see that happening to be honest.

Have you contacted any of the major retail outlets to see if they have any interest? You could sell the few Few by doing a demonstration in places like B&Q or Homebase, Wicks which are frequented by tradesmen on a daily basis.

Patent Pending concept? So you havn't a patent on it yet? have you applied? why not wait until you have it, its pointless asking for an investment without the security of an active patent, if it all goes pear shaped and a large manufacturer copies the idea, where does that leave the investor? So waiting for this vital patent would be a wise move before asking for an investor

Based on the size of the construction industry and the target audience, we project sales of £189k in the first year, and expect to double these figures by the end of the second year, with sales of almost £700k by the end of year three.

The construction industry is going through some bad patches at the moment, people are struggling to get regular work and housebuilding in the UK has slowed down big time over the past 3 years, with the the UK possibly going into a triple dip recession i don't think those projected sales of yours take into account the slackness in the UK construction industry at present.

 

[Merchant UK]

Had a look at the animated video too.

One aspect of your post and the video that comes across is that you don't explain what the problems are of working with panel products on site, and how your product addresses these, and consequently makes these alleged savings. Whilst a proportion of your target investors will understand the problem, a larger proportion will not: As a tradesman, you clearly understand them

Also what happens on site where the parking is situated away from the houses being built? I've seen those large panel saws before and they make a lot of dust and mess, imagine its been raining and the van is all wet, its doing to get covered in wet sawdust which will mean you need to wash the van before you drive it.

The idea is nice, but i can't see it working for individual tradesmen not only will they have to ditch their tools but may have to buy a larger van to have this bolted onto the side.

I personally think although a nice idea its not really practical, and not really quicker on site.

I take it you've not made a working example as yet? Whist its nice spending £100's on animated cartoons its don't beat a real video of the thing actually being used, There could be all manner of problems that are not shown in the cartoon

 

[Innovation]

Morning

Would love to go into further detail to explain the benefits behind the concept- I will address the health and safety issues first , a lot of tradesmen are dependant on power hand tools, with the circular power saw been the most common in use, I think most will agree that the circular saw is the most dangerous of the power hand tools, as one mistake and you will lose fingers or even the full hand if unlucky , most the timbers used are soft woods(namely pine) which is full of knots which can nip the blade and cause dangerous kick backs, (which is even more of a problem in the cooler damper months) due to mositure in the timber, what this concept allows if for the circular saw to be secured to a sliding carrige to remove any kick back, or risk of losing any fingers or serious accident, also another benefit is that it allows the operator to perform cutting tasks on small timber sections, as the risks increase the smaller the workpiece becomes, with smaller work piece's, if nipping of the blade it can drag your support hand into close contact with the blade , which will instantly remove fingers , and its not about experience or been careful , you can not predict the way a circular saw will react.

Paul daniels was very lucky , but still lost part of 2 fingers

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2089424/Paul-Daniels-chops-finger-saw-trying-build-SAFETY-DEVICE.html

A smart and experienced tradesmen would skip timber at a certain size to reduce the chance of a life changing injury , with this concept and the circular saw attached to the sliding carriage, you can perform cutting tasks on timber the size of a mobile phone, so by using the concept , you can reduce the amount of waste, and save the value of the timber that would otherwise be skipped due to safety concerns, over time,it would certainly reduce the construction waste which inturn reduces the demand on raw material, these concerns are also mirrored when performing cutting tasks on large sheet material, as one must stretch over the panel, and as panels are 8ft x 4ft , even to cut across the 4ft width you would need a reach of 6ft to make a cut in one stroke, to complete this task you certainly place yourself in off balancing position which increases the danger.

The sliding carrige moves across the panel, whilst the panel is in a secure upright position, and even length cuts along the 8ft direction , can be easily performed in seconds, without the need of a guide rail to perform a straight cut, even diagonal cuts can be performed without timely mark up of the timber/panels - the sliding carriage also secures a router into position for ease of use, as routers can also be very dangerous and welknown to bite into the timber , and jump about, which sometimes can throw the material at a high speed, as the machine is pulled towards you along the timber, which can and do project the timber like a fast moving missile, another advantage is that it reverses the actions and dangers of a crosscut saw, crosscuts are pulled towards the operator, so you are pulling a fast moving blade towards your body, pulling the blade over the timber, with the dropdown mutlifunctional work bench , the circular saw can be attached upside down, and the timber is moved across the secure blade , reducing the chance of accidents as pushing away from the body.

The router also if not used on the sliding carrige is attached to the dropdown workbench and secured to remove any potential danger, of kick backs , as a router blade will not remove your finger/s , it will eat your fingers and damage them beyond repair.

 

[Merchant UK]

Whilst the safety aspect is fine i really can't see experienced tradesmen ditching their tools and just getting a larger van with this on the side with all the add on's

The thing you've not mentioned is what is the retail price of this £100? £200 What figure are you basing your annual projections on?

 

[Innovation]

I think what also sets alarms off is this

"World’s 1st Mobile Vertical Panel Saw" doing a google i come up with no end of vertical panel saws being made all over the world, some look pretty old too, so i wouldn't keep using that term too much.

So basically you've invented a 7-in-1 Multifunctional WorkStation for wood workers

From what i've seen theres quite a few woodworking multifunction machines out there, why would yours be different?, Basically your asking existing tradesmen to ditch their tools and use yours instead? I can't see that happening any time soon, tradesmen take a lot of pride in their tools, some which cost several hundreds, would they be likely to stop using them and buy yours instead? I can't see that happening to be honest.

Have you contacted any of the major retail outlets to see if they have any interest? You could sell the few Few by doing a demonstration in places like B&Q or Homebase, Wicks which are frequented by tradesmen on a daily basis.

Patent Pending concept? So you havn't a patent on it yet? have you applied? why not wait until you have it, its pointless asking for an investment without the security of an active patent, if it all goes pear shaped and a large manufacturer copies the idea, where does that leave the investor? So waiting for this vital patent would be a wise move before asking for an investor



The construction industry is going through some bad patches at the moment, people are struggling to get regular work and housebuilding in the UK has slowed down big time over the past 3 years, with the the UK possibly going into a triple dip recession i don't think those projected sales of yours take into account the slackness in the UK construction industry at present.

You are certainly correct, they are panel saws , which are all mainly operated in a workshop environment as its impracticable to transport from location to location , The concept I have came up with is the World's first mobile panel saw, which removes the associated hassle and a practical answer to the use of a panel saw away from the workshop environment, and sort IP rights to protect that position. (and another point, not many machines have the capibility of diagonal cuts, especially in our price range, you would be looking at £10,000+)

I agree that they are quite a few multifunctional machines , but nothing like the concept I have designed and developed, far from it, mine is different due to the functionalities and the mobility of a machine that is normally operated in a workshop due to the size of the frame work which supports large 8ft x 4ft panels, Its not a case of asking tradesmen to ditch they tools and use this concept instead, the whole idea is to improve on the available options on site or away from the workshop environment, and a means of reducing costs of prefabricated material , as prefabricated material is only considered due to the associated hassle of trying to produce as such with only the standard power hand tools available.

You make a good point inregard to B&Q etc, but although I have a proof of concept prototype , I believe the demonstrations should take place once we have a fully commercialised pre production model.

The concept is patent pending , and although I appreciate your thoughts on this , I believe that the concept would be of great benefit to mobile tradesmen in the current market conditions to help reduce the costs and reduce the impact the economy is having on they income, as it would certainly help reduce operational costs, I do not envisage a problem or it going pear shape regarding securing protection by way of a patent, for the simple reason , no other panel saw includes the inventive step of the dropdown table, and the idea behind its mobility, so although the concept is patent pending, I believe that is enough to make other manufacturers think twice, as it would take a large investment to purchase the tooling to produce this concept, and then once the patent is granted , can be stopped over night from contining production, and even the fact of seeking back damages would be a concern for them.

 

[Innovation]

Whilst the safety aspect is fine i really can't see experienced tradesmen ditching their tools and just getting a larger van with this on the side with all the add on's

The thing you've not mentioned is what is the retail price of this £100? £200 What figure are you basing your annual projections on?

Again its not about ditching the tools, its to improve availability, and the concept would incorporate the power hand tools that the tradesman would already own, you would also not need to get a larger van, as the concept would be fitted to they current vehicle, and if your concerns are regarding tradesmen with smaller vehicles, then we are developing a second model to cater for this concern, which is still the same concept but adapted to address these concerns.

The retail price would be £3,800, which is well below the price ofa standard panel saw which has the cutting capibilities of this machine, as in length ,width and diagonal options, and these machines do not have the dropdown workbench and the option of 5 separate workshop equivalent machines or the mobility aspects.

 

[Innovation]

I noticed back in 2010 when leaving the workshop to operate as a mobile tradesman to reduce the impact the economy was having on my income, I noticed instantly, the amount of tradesmen competing for the work and the low quotes that were been submitted, and quite a few people who would of employed a skilled tradesmen, actually having ago at the required job in question, I know as I had many jobs to put right after such efforts, a big concern was working with power hand tools after leaving the workshop and the luxary of the workshop machines -

Many a day I wished I was in my workshop as many of the tasks that I was performing with the power tools , would of been a 2 minute job with my machinery, and the late finishes were not that welcome either.

I wanted to bring the workshop to the site, and after 2 1/2 years I have managed to do that.

To win the work I knew I needed a concept to enable me to undercut any other quote submitted, but it was also important to try and capitalise on each job by increasing the profits.

Many tradesmen will purchase prefabricated material, which does have its advantages as it reduces the time and effort aswell as fatigue and labour, but it also has its disadvantages when it comes to the profit and bottomline, mainly the vast difference in material costs.

After designing jigs and templates in my workshop to increase performance of the machines and improving the safety aspects, I believed 100% that if I returned to the workshop and put all my time and energy into creating a concept , that maybe I could create a new business, I decided there and then that this was going to be the way forward, as the market was not likely to improve over night .

This concept is the end result and must say costs can be greatly reduced by as much as 60% by removing the need of prefabricated material, quotes can be submitted 30% lower then the next guy, whilst increasing the profits by as much.

Prefabricated material is only purchased , due to the available tools when operating mobile, a tradesman is never going to mess about producing angle bead with power hand tools - so a simple job like fitting laminated floors, would need around 10+ lengths of angle bead at around the cost of £8/£9 per length, to go around the edges after the floor is fitted , this tidies up the work as laminated is classed as a floating floor, and a 10mm gap is required to remove the chance of the floor lifting and allowing for movement (swelling/shrieking) , with this concept , a normal piece of timber (9"x1") 6ft in length can be bought, and then secured to the frame of the concept, the router can be moved across the timber to cut a fancy edge within seconds, the circular saw can then dropdown half of a inch and moved across the length of timber producing a length of beading , in the matter of a minute, this can be repeated to produce the required amount of lengths needed, not only is it a quick method, the length in question would cost around £3 to purchase, I know its only a small saving but over a week or even a month the amount saved is a wage in itself.

Example 2

*A tradesman is asked to complete a revamp on a city office, this requires the walls to be covered in raised panel sheeting after viewing the said job a quote of £3,000 is submitted due to the costs of each panel which must be purchased in pre-fabricated form:

20 panels x £100 per panel = £2000 in costs for the panels alone - £1000 labour charges giving the grand total of £3,000

*The second tradesman who happens to have the benefits of the RipRak concept and the functionalities such as machine creates , can quote for the same job for £2100 which is a masive saving of 30% to the customer

This tradesman costs are £200 = 20 x£10 per standard panel sheet = as the concepts removes the cost of pre-fabricated material due to functionalities

£200 cost of material + £1000 labour as charged by the previous trademan - this equates to a 60% saving = equalling £1800 this is then split between the customer and the RipRak user = £900 to each party

The customer is quoted £2100 taking into account the split of £1800 in savings - the tradesman profit is now £1900 for the labour after gaining 50% 0f the savings of £1800

RipRak users costs are 6.6% compared to the 66% costs of the standard power tool user

This one job and example returns 24% of the initial investment of the RipRak concept

 

[Merchant UK]

The retail price would be £3,800, which is well below the price ofa standard panel saw which has the cutting capabilities of this machine, as in length ,width and diagonal options, and these machines do not have the dropdown workbench and the option of 5 separate workshop equivalent machines or the mobility aspects.

I can't see to be honest a tradesman spending £3,800 and probably vat on top, plus the cost of a large van so your looking at almost £10,000 for the complete set up?

Whilst the capabilities would be ideal in a workshop, i can't see it being popular outside on site. This would mean that the material would be cut outside so you'd need to think of the weather, rain and snow is happening more often in the UK. You'd have to invest more in some forum of covering for the van, and materials, Using power tools out in the rain is generally consided bad practice, even under cover

I think your going to have to come away from the everyday Carpenter, as he's not going to want to buy something this big, only to work outside, not very good in the winter. I can't really see a use for this except to cut panels with, based on that idea alone its a very expensive way to do such an easy job.

As for workshop based, you can get a panel saw for well under £1,000 and workshops generally have benches and other work machinery. why ditch all that and use your concept?

 

[Merchant UK]

Forgot to mention that if the need arises the contractor could hire a mobile panel saw and operate it safely inside as opposed to outside on the side of a van, Take for example office refurbishments, where the office is and where you park is a nightmare scenario, would you be allowed to operate in a public parking space, then handle all the material inside the office, who's keeping an eye on the van and equipment?

There are many mobile panel saws you can buy for doing such a job, or even hire it and you would'nt have all the initial expense of buying this set up and van

Not trying to put the dampers on but looking at it from all angles, like an investor would

 

[Socio South West]

This is a project you have clearly put a lot of time into, based on your experience.

The costings on savings are great for a potential investor to see how potentially attractive it could be to customers.

You are quoting a price of £3800 - but it seems there is no production model in sight as yet: Where is this figure coming from? What margin are you working at?

You mention quite a lot of promotion and sales work, which besides the cost of the show space alone will need a lot of travel and substence, even if you are doing the demonstrating and sales on your own - this is going to eat considerably into margin on sales of £190k and £380k in years one and two, and you are also indicating a 15% return to the investor in year one... Your figures need to stack up well... and I haven't even mentioned the dividends yet.

Have you thought about offering kitted and fitted vehicles? It would be more economic to manufacture fittings for one make and model of van than have a range of fittings with tooling etc for each one. These could also incorporate dust extractors which will be a necessary evil with your product.

You mention four groups of customers: You should forget the DIY and small carpenters, certainly initially: They will be the largest group, but by far the least likely to buy. Concentrate your marketing on the customers that can take advantage of the savings you are claiming - large contractors and building companies are where the success of this product will lie, and you could waste a lot of money and energy chasing the small customer market where sales are not going to be significant.

I could also see a demand, although limited, for a franchished operator with a completely kitted out vehicle offering a service to larger building sites during certain phases of construction, and it may be an area to investigate a little further down the line.

It's an interesting product, and I am sure there is a market out there: You may do better to get the patents secured and then approach someone like Axminster Power Tools who have manufacturing capability to make it for you under licence: They would also have a head start on market presence in the right sectors.

 

[Innovation]

Forgot to mention that if the need arises the contractor could hire a mobile panel saw and operate it safely inside as opposed to outside on the side of a van, Take for example office refurbishments, where the office is and where you park is a nightmare scenario, would you be allowed to operate in a public parking space, then handle all the material inside the office, who's keeping an eye on the van and equipment?

There are many mobile panel saws you can buy for doing such a job, or even hire it and you would'nt have all the initial expense of buying this set up and van

Not trying to put the dampers on but looking at it from all angles, like an investor would

Hi there again Merchant

I am glad to go into dialogue with you regarding this , but you are missing the point completely, you can not hire panel saws, or at least I do not think you can, my concept can safely be operated inside also, as a free standing unit, I have thought of everything as a professional tradesman and the end users perspective, and another bonus if you happen to go back into a workshop environment , this concept would then be able to be fitted to a vertical wall, these saws are called vertical wall saws, and the model you have shown is not a patch on this concept, should I tell you why? because the thing only cuts in one direction, and that is across the width of the sheet material, to perform a length cut you would need to push the board throw the blade after setting the blade in a horizontal position, so infact you are 8ft away from the blade applying pressure, the concept is to reduce time, not spend more time cleaning up the final cut(accuracy).

So you would in fact need at least 16ft of floor space to achieve a cut along the length of a 8ft board, these cheap models of panel saws are not ideal to perform the job in question which I mentioned above, how could you remove prefabricated costs of raised panel sheets by using the model you have in your post? I ask this question without answering as you seem to think it does! and as you seem to be a expert on this subject , please do explain! I am not trying to be smart , and appreciate you are looking at it from all angles, but by asking how you would reduce the prefabricated costs , might help you understand the benefits more closely of my concept.

Another point is , if you had a small workshop and limited available floorspace, you are restricted in the amount of machines you can safely position in such restrictions, with this concept , you can have the smallest of workshops and still have 5 potential operational tools which takes up next to no space at all, so for instance, your workshop could be 8ft in length by 3ft in width or( 3 square metres ) and still have 5 operational machines aswell as a workbench, the above model would need 5 metres to perform a cut along the length of a panel! and then the same again as you would at least need a workbench so 16ft by 6ft (at least) and that would be all , no room for any other machine, such as a table saw, router table, crosscut saw, all these tools would be available to use in the tightest of spaces if the RipRak was fitted into the workshop area .

The RipRak concept might look like a standard panel saw as a first opinion, but once you understand the concept , you would appreciate the many benefits, and I thank you for helping me express such benefits for others to consider.

 

[2012biz2012]

Hi Innovation...

I just thought that I would let you know that posting for investment on UFBF is a complete waste of your time...

Almost every single member on here that requently posts or gets involved in discussions is a very weak business. There is probably only one proper business and that text local.

Everyone else is trying to make it.

I would say...

* Try crowd funding
* Approach businesses in the industry with a biz plan and design for a royalty

 

[Innovation]

This is a project you have clearly put a lot of time into, based on your experience.

The costings on savings are great for a potential investor to see how potentially attractive it could be to customers.

You are quoting a price of £3800 - but it seems there is no production model in sight as yet: Where is this figure coming from? What margin are you working at?

You mention quite a lot of promotion and sales work, which besides the cost of the show space alone will need a lot of travel and substence, even if you are doing the demonstrating and sales on your own - this is going to eat considerably into margin on sales of £190k and £380k in years one and two, and you are also indicating a 15% return to the investor in year one... Your figures need to stack up well... and I haven't even mentioned the dividends yet.

Have you thought about offering kitted and fitted vehicles? It would be more economic to manufacture fittings for one make and model of van than have a range of fittings with tooling etc for each one. These could also incorporate dust extractors which will be a necessary evil with your product.

You mention four groups of customers: You should forget the DIY and small carpenters, certainly initially: They will be the largest group, but by far the least likely to buy. Concentrate your marketing on the customers that can take advantage of the savings you are claiming - large contractors and building companies are where the success of this product will lie, and you could waste a lot of money and energy chasing the small customer market where sales are not going to be significant.

I could also see a demand, although limited, for a franchished operator with a completely kitted out vehicle offering a service to larger building sites during certain phases of construction, and it may be an area to investigate a little further down the line.

It's an interesting product, and I am sure there is a market out there: You may do better to get the patents secured and then approach someone like Axminster Power Tools who have manufacturing capability to make it for you under licence: They would also have a head start on market presence in the right sectors.

Hi,

You raise some interesting points , thanks as all feedback is welcome as I press ahead with my plans.

I fully appreciate that the figures should stack up and have built a business model to enable me to quote the figures I have, as a lot of the liabilities and operational costs are removed, as I intend to capitalise by outsourcing fabrication which is part of our plans. I have been in dialogue with an award winning specialist machine engineer in regard to the commercialistion of a pre-production prototype , margins are 79% of the retail price.

I have considered the promotional costs into financials as we would be attending exhibitions, part of the finances/funds raised, will cover the pre-production model aswell as a vehicle to display the concept which we do intent to use at shows as part the promotional/demonstrational work, the dust extraction is a good point, which we have given some thought and is necessary for the shows, start up funds will kit out the vehicle and it will be used for promotions.

You have raised some good points , but I would not think it was best for the companies profit margin to license to the likes of Axminster Power Tools, as we have fabricators in place who can produce the product

 

[Innovation]

Hi Innovation...

I just thought that I would let you know that posting for investment on UFBF is a complete waste of your time...

Almost every single member on here that requently posts or gets involved in discussions is a very weak business. There is probably only one proper business and that text local.

Everyone else is trying to make it.

I would say...

* Try crowd funding
* Approach businesses in the industry with a biz plan and design for a royalty

Thanks for the info and your concerns, I understand what you are saying, but in all honesty , I enjoy going over the finer points of the concept and as for time, well spend a lot online anyway , so chatting about my concept is a bonus and if I gather one bit of useful information that is was worth the time committed, as Socio made some good points regarding target market, so have gained a little more info to consider , although I believe it would benefit the DIYer and smaller operational tradesman, as I would of loved such a concept going back to 2010 when competing for work, as 30% lower quotes would of certainly won more work, and the 30% increase in profits , would of certainly been more then welcome (and needed)

Thanks again

Best wishes

 

[Chris Ashdown]

I would raise two points

1)
Who would feel happy leaving a van with £4000 on equipment inside, which presumably would normally allow passer by's to view when being used on site

2)

Obtaing a patent is one thing , stopping a larger company copying is a different matter as you already have proved the company has little or no finance. you need to use civil law to protect your invention. It's also very hard to get a patent, there has to be an inventio it cannot be say like a walkman which failed to get a patent as it was just a small tape recorder or a ipod which was just a reduced mp3 player, yes they had patented parts inside but nothing to stop others making simular items

 

[Merchant UK]

Hi there again Merchant

I am glad to go into dialogue with you regarding this , but you are missing the point completely, you can not hire panel saws, or at least I do not think you can, my concept can safely be operated inside also, as a free standing unit, I have thought of everything as a professional tradesman and the end users perspective, and another bonus if you happen to go back into a workshop environment , this concept would then be able to be fitted to a vertical wall, these saws are called vertical wall saws, and the model you have shown is not a patch on this concept, should I tell you why? because the thing only cuts in one direction, and that is across the width of the sheet material, to perform a length cut you would need to push the board throw the blade after setting the blade in a horizontal position, so infact you are 8ft away from the blade applying pressure, the concept is to reduce time, not spend more time cleaning up the final cut(accuracy).

So you would in fact need at least 16ft of floor space to achieve a cut along the length of a 8ft board, these cheap models of panel saws are not ideal to perform the job in question which I mentioned above, how could you remove prefabricated costs of raised panel sheets by using the model you have in your post? I ask this question without answering as you seem to think it does! and as you seem to be a expert on this subject , please do explain! I am not trying to be smart , and appreciate you are looking at it from all angles, but by asking how you would reduce the prefabricated costs , might help you understand the benefits more closely of my concept.

Another point is , if you had a small workshop and limited available floorspace, you are restricted in the amount of machines you can safely position in such restrictions, with this concept , you can have the smallest of workshops and still have 5 potential operational tools which takes up next to no space at all, so for instance, your workshop could be 8ft in length by 3ft in width or( 3 square metres ) and still have 5 operational machines aswell as a workbench, the above model would need 5 metres to perform a cut along the length of a panel! and then the same again as you would at least need a workbench so 16ft by 6ft (at least) and that would be all , no room for any other machine, such as a table saw, router table, crosscut saw, all these tools would be available to use in the tightest of spaces if the RipRak was fitted into the workshop area .

The RipRak concept might look like a standard panel saw as a first opinion, but once you understand the concept , you would appreciate the many benefits, and I thank you for helping me express such benefits for others to consider.

This is what i'm trying to say, for the average carpenter on site, having equipment like this is way over the top, this is a specialised piece of kit which firstly acts as a panel saw and then transforms into other gadgets.

I think your going to need to offer the equipment to more specialised companies as opposed to everyday carpenters, I know of two and when i spoke to one about this concept, although interested at first when i told him the price he quickly changed his mind. They cannot justify that expense of a product that they would use so little, and again being bolted on the side of a large van makes it very limited as to where you can use and operate this from.

The guy i spoke to has been doing carpentry all his life and the thickest 8ft x 4ft panel he's ever had to cut was 15mm He uses a clamp rule and this guides his power saw in straight lines, as well as diagonals.

So for the average site chippy and diy-er this will be very much overkill.

So looking at it from that aspect who do you have left?? Specialised Joinery companies who would i guess make up the panels in a workshop and transport them to the site, as opposed to cutting them en situ on the site of a road or car park, quite a distance from where the job would be.

I think that would half the amount of people you have based your projections on just by omitting those people that would never ever use a machine like this bolted onto a side of a van.

Have you thought about asking the Larger Joinery companies about their opinions on something like this?

Another thing that concerns me is the patent, whats it actually for? Surely its not fitting a vertical Panel saw to the outside of a van ? I would imagine it being for the different configurations that you can use it for, can you confirm?

Its a good idea but is it practical to the people your aiming for, no i don't think it is based on my previous posts, You need to look at it totally afresh and look at getting larger companies on board, people that do cut large panels frequently, but to be honest i can't see anyone cutting large panels on the side of the road, or in a car park on a building site.

You need to do some Market research and get the trade more involved, They may give you ideas and advice on what would work and what wouldn't

There seems to be a lot of unexplained areas which does throw some doubt as to how viable this concept could be, Even if it was only £500, i still think you'd have problems trying to sell them

 

[Innovation]

I would raise two points

1)
Who would feel happy leaving a van with £4000 on equipment inside, which presumably would normally allow passer by's to view when being used on site

2)

Obtaing a patent is one thing , stopping a larger company copying is a different matter as you already have proved the company has little or no finance. you need to use civil law to protect your invention. It's also very hard to get a patent, there has to be an inventio it cannot be say like a walkman which failed to get a patent as it was just a small tape recorder or a ipod which was just a reduced mp3 player, yes they had patented parts inside but nothing to stop others making simular items

Chris, equipment would not be inside the vehicle, it would be secured to the side of the vehicle, if its been used on site then how could it be at risk , its like saying who would be happy leaving a vehicle with a carrying frail on the vehicle , but thousands do! and some frails can be as high as £2000, yet I see many trade vehicles with these frails fitted,

2) Chris I do not understand what you are getting at with point 2 raised, I fully understand the requirements in gaining a patent , and the need to have an inventive step, which if you look into panel saws , you will see not one includes a dropdown workbench, and the patent would protect the method of use, which would be the steps taken to use the concept, and as one of the steps is attaching such a concept to a vehicle surface, they is not many other ways to produce a mobile adaption, the method of use and the inventive step is what is sought, to give the company an edge in exploiting the concept to mobile tradesmen, others can make similar items, but would not be able to include the dropdown workbench, or the method of using the concept , so the benefit is lost, mobility and practicability is what creates the benefits, its very rare to have a new invention, most are innovational improvement, which in fact are better to build a busines around as you have references to decide if the product would be a success and create from customers demand and concerns, and the best inventions are in fact innovations from the flaws in the original invention or an improvement in such a product

wow, it seems like I am defending this concept from all angles, to be truthful just looking for a potential investor and mentor to help reach the next level

 

[Innovation]

Merchant, my dear friend

let me just address something which I have previously addressed in earlier posts
because if we are going to go into dialogue, then you need to understand the concept and its limitations

QUOTE
I think your going to need to offer the equipment to more specialised companies as opposed to everyday carpenters, I know of two and when i spoke to one about this concept, although interested at first when i told him the price he quickly changed his mind. They cannot justify that expense of a product that they would use so little, and again being bolted on the side of a large van makes it very limited as to where you can use and operate this from.


This concept can be used and operated in 3 environment settings namely:

In a workshop - Mobile (as secured to vehicle) or as a Free standing alternative

Although the concept is secured to the side of a vehicle , limitations are not restricted, because the concept can also be operated as a free standing model, without the disadvantages of pushing the panel throw the cutting blade to perform a length cut , as the sliding carrige allows the length cut to be easily performed by moving across the panel, unlike the other model you posted earlier,.

I built the prototype in my workshop and it was secured to the wall whilst I was designing and completing the development, it at some stage will need to be removed to be secured to the vehicle to have the mobility option, so we know it can easily be placed back in the workshop if needs be, if we arrived at a job or site and we had restricted access, then we can use the freestanding option, hence the 3 environments - now the one you posted pictures of would be a restricted model, as yes can be used as a free standing model, but not a great choice for a workshop as explained earlier, plus it does not have the mobility benefits, yes its portable, but portable and mobility in these thoughts are slightly different in my opinion.

As for the price, I do not believe and have researched proof that a machine that can perform the cutting capabilities of this model of panel saw is way under the market standard set prices - plus on a business sense, if the product can reduce construction waste as it does, produced from recycled material, aswell as creating less demand on raw material , then in my book it is a green concept, and green concepts are tax efficient - and another point, they are 0% loans to purchase such machines, with the repayments set at the amount you would likely save per month, not to mention the tax relief , if paying taxes, so I do not see the concerns your two friends have with the purchasing costs

 

[Innovation]

The guy i spoke to has been doing carpentry all his life and the thickest 8ft x 4ft panel he's ever had to cut was 15mm He uses a clamp rule and this guides his power saw in straight lines, as well as diagonals.

So for the average site chippy and diy-er this will be very much overkill.

So looking at it from that aspect who do you have left?? Specialised Joinery companies who would i guess make up the panels in a workshop and transport them to the site, as opposed to cutting them en situ on the site of a road or car park, quite a distance from where the job would be.

I think that would half the amount of people you have based your projections on just by omitting those people that would never ever use a machine like this bolted onto a side of a van.

Merchant , just re-read your last post, and to be straight with you , I think you have very mixed feeling of this concept , and making the posts from your own very thoughts and trying to justify that your opinion is the correct one and the concept has no value, as one minute you are saying a specialist piece of kit, to overkill.

Your friend might have been a carpenter all his life , although I find hard to believe, but anyways, I am also a carpenter now in my 40s and been practising since I was in my teens, as a lay person which you are as obviously not a tradesman, how can you only consider your own thoughts on such a machine and its potential benefits as certainly not a end user.

We can all cut panels by clamping straight edges to the marked up cut line, and running a circular saw along the said panel, that takes time, and time is money, can you imagine , you need to rip aboard down in to 6 inch sections across the 4ft width, how much stress is that using the method you mention? how much strain on you back performing so many cuts? bending over and stretching all day? and please do not say a portable table saw, as you will need two men to support such a panel this size, this concept would allow you to complete such tasks in minutes, probably complete the full panel by the time your friend completes his second length, after measuring cut, then mark up line, then clamping a straight edge into position, again time is money, and if we reduce time and effort we reduce quotes, reduced quotes win jobs, especially in the current climate.

So for the average site chippy and diy-er this will be very much overkill.

So, you ask who do I have left, well , I believe once the above are educated, and realise that they are other ways for purchasing such a concept in the form of 0% interest free loans, which are paid back from the possible savings and from the amount of extra work this concept can achieve, then I believe we have a big market.

Your thoughts on working in a car park are not very well founded and are starting to believe that your mission is to kill the product and the concept behind it, as I have said many times about the different settings this concept can be operated in.

And as I have addressed all the points and concerns you raised, it would be nice to see if you could address the point I raised, regarding how the panel saw you pictured earlier would reduce prefabricated costs? how could raised panels be produced on such a model? and to make you aware, that machine pictured can only perform the task your friend can do with his straight edge, but your friend does not need 16ft to cut along the length, so if my product only had them capabilities then I would agree with your thoughts and what your friend told you, and what he is happy doing with his straight edge and power hand saw, does your friends method remove the potential for dangerous kickbacks or the blade nipping? it might not of happened to him in all the time operating this way, but it only needs to happen once.

There seems to be a lot of unexplained areas which does throw some doubt as to how viable this concept could be, Even if it was only £500, i still think you'd have problems trying to sell them

And which areas would that be Merchant, considering I am in a public forum , I think I have revealed quite an indepth summary, and to say you could not seeing it sell for £500 is totally mind blowing after placing earlier picture of a machine which I believe would cost a £1000 plus is a rich statement to make, as this only cuts in one direction accurately.

 

[businessfunding]

Dear Innovastion

TBH I think you have chosen a terrible platform for pitching.

You have put in 100 times more effort than most of the 'pitch ideas' on here and really should do it justice by presenting it to the right target audience; which might be through a crowd platform or - probably better in this sector - an Angel (or angel network) who can add expertise and contacts to the mix.

In my opinion it is a big mistake to open a public forum on your proposition.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Sorry but a step or drop down workbench is not patantable as a new invention, I think you may possibly have been had by a patent agent who is more interested in filing your patent that seeing it get aproval three years down the line. Please take advice and check out by a third party who understands the patent laws

If something is fitted to the outside of a van then theives will soon understand its value and that maybe the rest is inside so making it a hihg target for them

I assume you have some idea's for if it rains or snows

 

[Innovation]

Dear Innovastion

TBH I think you have chosen a terrible platform for pitching.

You have put in 100 times more effort than most of the 'pitch ideas' on here and really should do it justice by presenting it to the right target audience; which might be through a crowd platform or - probably better in this sector - an Angel (or angel network) who can add expertise and contacts to the mix.

In my opinion it is a big mistake to open a public forum on your proposition.

Afternoon Kickstart

Thanks for the post, your input and thoughts, and are starting to side with your opinion on this, as just read the post after yours from Chris, and starting to think, that other members think I just woke up one morning and thought, yeah I have an idea , lets call it a new invention, I have been working on this for 30 months putting in the best part of 15 hours per day (in one way or another) and spent a long term researching IPO rights and other information regarding patents.

I think its time to really find and communicate with educated people who understand the points that are been made and have a fair understanding regarding IP rights , as many just get some ideas in they heads from a few minutes reading online documents , and then start making assumptions regarding complicated laws regarding patents and the protection which can be sought as an innovational improvement.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Actually i do hold a full patent thats still valid, so not just reading up on Google

 

[Innovation]

Sorry but a step or drop down workbench is not patantable as a new invention, I think you may possibly have been had by a patent agent who is more interested in filing your patent that seeing it get aproval three years down the line. Please take advice and check out by a third party who understands the patent laws

If something is fitted to the outside of a van then theives will soon understand its value and that maybe the rest is inside so making it a hihg target for them

I assume you have some idea's for if it rains or snows

Afternoon Chris,

Your statement is very disrespectful to patent agents in general, and from only a few posts I have made, you make outlandish claims, let me give you an example from my research and then hopefully you might have a different view on how IP works and how patents can be gained and secured for even just a slight improvement.

A patent was granted to a designer in the 50s for an apparatus to cut large sheet material, so that would give the applicant 20 years protection.

After the protection expired , another applicant decided , he could improve on this and decided to file a patent , for a portable model , (portable as in he fitted wheels to the concept) to move about the workshop, did he gain a patent? YES - on the benefits that it could be moved around the workshop, did he invent the wheel? NO -

Then some 20+ years later another designer , decided he knew a better way for portability, as the earlier patent granted never really granted IP rights to a true portable concept, as it was only portable , to the fact it could move around the workshop, not portable to travel from location to location.

So the a 3rd patent was granted for the much improved portable model.

That is 3 concepts granted IPR (INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY RIGHTS)

Did the 3rd guy invent the concept? NO, he just designed a more useful way to enable the concept to be transported.

If something is fitted to the outside of a van then theives will soon understand its value and that maybe the rest is inside so making it a hihg target for them

I assume you have some idea's for if it rains or snows


I see your point in away and is a reasonable suggestion to make, BUT the concept is transported in the mobility option, and once arriving at the destination the concept would then be in use, if you arrive at a residential site(as in residential property) you would be using the concept whilst attached to the vehicle , it would stay attached to the vehicle as you would be restricted regarding the work area to perform cutting of large panels or the fact of unloading many tools to perform such tasks, so you would be in close contact with the machine, plus the machine is securely fitted to the vehicle in a locked position.

If you were working on a building site, it would be the same method of operation, if for some reason you did not have access to the site, the concept is easily removed , because as the owner , you do not need to try and dislodge the machine by way of force or snapping of the secured elements.

And as for the rest inside the vehicle, we are talking of only a circular saw or router which enables the machine to tranform into so many optional benefits, and these tools will be with the operator.

As for bad weather, the concept can be removed from the vehicle and operated indoors, because in all due respect, if the weather was bad , then regardless if you had this concept or dependant on power hand tools, you would not be performing outdoors.

But if residential, then the concept would be a great advantage, because if you were needing to cut large panels, work could continue, as residential would have limited space, and you could not safely perform on a panel in a horizontal position, but RipRak will allow you to operate such tasks in the vertical position , so taking up very little floor area. The show must go on

 

[Innovation]

Actually i do hold a full patent thats still valid, so not just reading up on Google

Well Chris , as a patent holder you will appreciate and understand that your patent is to protect your interests aswell as your invention/innovation , incase someone tries to improve on what you have created, because even if they improved on your concept/idea, then as a patent holder , they would need to license your concept to enable them to produce such a concept/idea with the improvements they wish to incorporate into the concept you have IPR on, unless they waited till your patent protection expired, and then sought IPR on the improvement , which would be a radical innovation and then make your product not so desirable, gaining market shares from the improvements incorporated into the old concept, and if improvements were made from the flaws of a previous product, then a market/customers are gained, do you not agree?