Immigrant taking me to a tribunal

[dave_n]

i find it totally deplorable...
if you have a lot of immigrant workers then it may be an option to inform them that you are considering laying them all off because of this one person.

U'd be amazed what a little peer group pressure can do!

The sad thing, as usual, is that you have followed due process and he still gets away with it.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Re FSB playing safe - yes they probably were - I was advised from 3 authorative sources to settle, the grief and hastle and stress have very real costs to your business. And when you add those onto the £ disappearing on legal fees etc. Then you have to make a judgement. My husbands charge rate is £500 a day minimum, so each day in tribunal meant another £500 gone, ontop of what it was actually costing us. When you look at it this way £1000 to shut up and go away isn't really that expensive. And yes, it's crap, it's giving in, it's giving money to some lying toe-rag, but the leglislation is so skewed that sacrificing yourself isn't going to acheive anything for anyone else long term.

I applaud those people big enough to fight for the principles of all of us, at a personal cost to themselves. However, I had a very young family, a lot of stress, and it wasn't a fight I was prepared to take on onbehalf of the rest of the world.

I can understand FSB advice. And I respect you for being prepared to take it further.

perversely, if the FSB did take all these cases to court it would show up the biasedness and probably improve legislation for the better.

 

[Happyeater]

I haven't thought about a Private Investigator to he honest, I'm not too keen on outlaying more cash on the case. I don't think he'll show at a tribunal anyway. Just more time wasted but a point proven to others considering a similar route.

I gave copies of the paperwork I will submit as evidence and got a list from his solicitor (before they dumped him) of his list. The tribunal chap asked me if submissions had been made and I explained that my paperwork had not been sent to the tribunal yet. If they ask for 5-6 copies another rainforest will bite the dust.

 

[yorkshirejames]

The Immigrant didn't turn up.

I've read the first three pages of this thread. You could refer to him as "him" or "her" or by their name. Do you refer to people as "immigrants" when you do your rotas?

Naturally it is up to the site moderator, but I would suggest that given the contempt with you refer to this person, your posts where you say "the immigrant" are nothing short of a racially discriminative statement - and could get the owner of this website into trouble as well as you.

On reading your first page, I had sympathy for you (I have a lot of sympathy and respect for the entrepreneur) - but that had faded by the second page.

Whatever opinion you may have for foreigners or blacks/asians, I strongly advise you to keep these to the pub and your very close friends, and to bring NOT ONE HINT of this into the workplace or your professional life.

it may put people off even if the unthinkable happens and he wins.

Don't delude yourself - on my reading of this, you will be found (by the court) to have not followed the dispute resolution regulations to the letter (ERA section 90-something, as amended), the dismissal will be automatically unfair, this together with any race discrimination claim (which deserves to succeed, given your attitude) will mean you have to write a five figure sum on a cheque.

EDIT - just read the whole thread, and I am disappointed that not one of the other forum members felt that your racial contempt towards this person warranted a mention. I realise that most of us are probably white english, but business owners such as happyeater are happy to employ foreign workers (doubtless on minimum wage) and should really be able to see past the ends of their own noses.

 

[DuaneJackson]

You could refer to him as "him" or "her" or by their name.

agreed (with my Mods hat on)

 

[Printing Deals]

I've read the first three pages of this thread. You could refer to him as "him" or "her" or by their name. Do you refer to people as "immigrants" when you do your rotas?

Naturally it is up to the site moderator, but I would suggest that given the contempt with you refer to this person, your posts where you say "the immigrant" are nothing short of a racially discriminative statement - and could get the owner of this website into trouble as well as you.

On reading your first page, I had sympathy for you (I have a lot of sympathy and respect for the entrepreneur) - but that had faded by the second page.

Whatever opinion you may have for foreigners or blacks/asians, I strongly advise you to keep these to the pub and your very close friends, and to bring NOT ONE HINT of this into the workplace or your professional life.



Don't delude yourself - on my reading of this, you will be found (by the court) to have not followed the dispute resolution regulations to the letter (ERA section 90-something, as amended), the dismissal will be automatically unfair, this together with any race discrimination claim (which deserves to succeed, given your attitude) will mean you have to write a five figure sum on a cheque.

EDIT - just read the whole thread, and I am disappointed that not one of the other forum members felt that your racial contempt towards this person warranted a mention. I realise that most of us are probably white english, but business owners such as happyeater are happy to employ foreign workers (doubtless on minimum wage) and should really be able to see past the ends of their own noses.

Totally agree, I was thinking exactly the same, but until I saw your post I do not had courage to point this out. I also had a lot of sympathy for OP and wish him luck with this case, but it's another case of employee screwing employer simple as that, but why making it immigrant vs British?

In 2004 my employer sacked me on the spot for not offloading the stuff from delivery lorry (I was graphic designer by the way), not having much knowledge of employment law, I did nothing. Couple of years later another employer did not paid salary for 2 months and 3rd month after I refuse to work without pay, I was sacked again. This time went to tribunal, received default judgement against employer for around £5000, since then never got a single penny from him as he is unable to pay.

The reason I am telling you all this is that not a single time I have labelled this as a "typical British employers". As I believe it can happen to anyone with any race and background, even British people suffer more from such behaviour of employers.

Anyway, I am immigrant too btw!

 

[Happyeater]

Oh dear.

I employ over 150 people. Some black, most are white, some British born and bred some not, some Asian, some Africa, Chinese, Lithuanian, Polish etc. They all have names, even the one taking me to a tribunal but I'm not going to name names with the case ongoing.

The fact is that he IS an immigrant, working here year to year until he either becomes a British citizen or not as the case may be. Immigrant is his current status, its not meant to be demeaning in any way, its just a way of describing his status.

Blimey.

 

[Happyeater]

agreed (with my Mods hat on)

Not with the case ongoing surely?

 

[DuaneJackson]

The fact is that he IS an immigrant, working here year to year until he either becomes a British citizen or not as the case may be. Immigrant is his current status, its not meant to be demeaning in any way, its just a way of describing his status.

Assuming I rode a bike, I'd be a cyclist. But if you kept refering to me as "the cyclist" I'd assume you have an issue with cyclists or that it was somehow relevant to the point your're making.

As you keep refering to this person as "the immigrant", the same applies and it makes for uncomfortable reading as I don't see how his status is relevant.

Not with the case ongoing surely?

Not by name - but as him or her.

 

[Mattonella Tile Studio]

FWIW Happyeater I didnt' think you were being disrespectful. To me it seemed you were using an adjective, rather than a derogatory term.

 

[Zeno]

I must admit I did wonder why you kept on typing immigrant instead of guy however it did not come across as racist to me.

Just be glad the worker in question wasn't a girl or you would be sexist too.

 

[blackandwhite1986]

Oh dear.

I employ over 150 people. Some black, most are white, some British born and bred some not, some Asian, some Africa, Chinese, Lithuanian, Polish etc. They all have names, even the one taking me to a tribunal but I'm not going to name names with the case ongoing.

The fact is that he IS an immigrant, working here year to year until he either becomes a British citizen or not as the case may be. Immigrant is his current status, its not meant to be demeaning in any way, its just a way of describing his status.

Blimey.

Couldn't agree more.

yorkshire james I can see why you are dissapointed at the lack of response to this "racial contempt" but please allow me to answer it for you as plainly as I can...there is no racial contempt.

If you get done for racism by refering to someone as "the immigrant" then i will have finally lost faith with this country and the people within it.

Happyeater - I wish the best of luck to you with your case.

 

[Happyeater]

The thread is about someone who used to speak English, who is trying to live in Britain permanently, who was dismissed for a gross misconduct offence. This person then decided that he no longer speaks English and has taken me to a tribunal, not because of the 'gross misconduct' but mainly because he now says he didn't understand the language, the role, the schedules, the health and safety etc all of which he signed off on completely, in English.


This is where the 'immigrant' part is relevant. I don't wish to use a name as this is an ongoing case. I have referred to him as a him in several posts. I do not wish to cause offence to anyone. Please feel free to delete the entire thread if you wish. I am not a racist, never have been. I employ many people who do not use English as a first language, have done for 10+ yrs and will continue to do so. I have Managers and Supervisors who are not from the UK and are important to my business.

 

[Simon-M]

Reading the whole thread it comes across to me as the OP dehumanising the guy who stitched him up. I have not seen anything racist or any clue to a racial motivation. I can think of worse things to call him but they don't allow bad language on here

Is it racist to call someone an Immigrant? Not that I would just wondering if that was proved anywhere.

 

[pcservicenetwork]

All those who think that this is racism, please carefully read the post again! There is no way this is racism.

"Racism, by its simplest definition, is the belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race."

Quote from Wikipedia!

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Is it racist to call someone an Immigrant? Not that I would just wondering if that was proved anywhere.

If so, it must be sexist to call someone a "woman" ? :|
Ageist to call someone an OAP?

 

[reggiemental]

I think the OP has enough worries without people jumping on his back and complicating an already tricky issue. Give the man a break!

 

[KM-Tiger]

Please feel free to delete the entire thread if you wish. I am not a racist, never have been.

I don't see anything that you have have said as racist, so no need to delete the thread.

The trouble with PC is that anything you say can and will be twisted to suit.

At least on an internet forum you cannot be accused of racist body language.

 

[Charlie B ACS]

Reading the whole thread it comes across to me as the OP dehumanising the guy who stitched him up. I have not seen anything racist or any clue to a racial motivation. I can think of worse things to call him but they don't allow bad language on here

I completely agree. If a name had been used, it could be considered prejudicial to the case. A nickname could have been offensive.

"Immigrant" is a description of his Status. Just as Black, isn't considered to be racist (It's an accepted Description) Colored used to be the term used, but is now considered racist.

The claimant in this case, seems to be using his Immigrant "Status" to help him further his case.

IMHO, there's no hint of Racism, or racist motivation, just the frustration of the OP about the system being worked.

 

[davidakerr]

I recently watched a programme on BBC TV concerning HM Customs looking for "illegal immigrants" entering this country with forged papers. The BBC did not refer to them as anything other than "immigrants". For those who consider the OP was being racist the definition of immigrant is "a person who has come to officially live in a country from another country". No where does it mention the colour of their skin or their race, so how is the OP being racist?

 

[yorkshirejames]

Reading the whole thread it comes across to me as the OP dehumanising the guy who stitched him up. I have not seen anything racist or any clue to a racial motivation. I can think of worse things to call him but they don't allow bad language on here

Is it racist to call someone an Immigrant? Not that I would just wondering if that was proved anywhere.

It was the context I read it in. In that context, I interpreted it as derogatory. Others on this forum agreed with me, others did not.

I don't see the relevancy at all, to be honest. The thread title could be changed to "worker taking me to a tribunal" and the same constructive advice would be offered to the OP.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

A bit part of the whole issue though was the fact that the worker in question lost the ability to speak/understand English half way through the disciplinary process. In the context of the thread, stating that he was an immigrant got the points/issues etc of this partic bit over quickly and simply.

 

[dave_n]

calling an immigrant an immigrant is racist?
I'm truly lost for words....stop the world I wanna get off!

 

[Simon-M]

It was the context I read it in. In that context, I interpreted it as derogatory.

If you want to see derogatory then I suppose you can see it. It never entered my mind though until I read your post. Does that make me a racist?

 

[Dawg]

If you want to see derogatory then I suppose you can see it. It never entered my mind though until I read your post. Does that make me a racist?

Yes. Probably Institutionally racist at that. Certainly latently racist, possibly nascentlly racist, potentially prima facie racist. Oh dear.

(Source: Quango 101)

 

[DavidRyves]

Probably off-topic (and apologies if so) - but maybe a reason why everyone's so sensitive about things ...

As this may be a controversial post - so firstly my non-racist credentials - actively involved with the Ant-Nazi League and Rock Against Racism in the 70's - Lewisham riots, Brockwell Park, Victoria Park et el - best mate at school = Dali Tambo (Oliver Tambo's son - his Dad was acting president on the ANC when Mandela was in prison) - I have a deep and passionate distaste for racism in any form - but there is a but (and not everything before the word 'but' is bullshit):

There are those that have learned that 'playing the race card' can produce dividends. I have always said that just as 60% of white people are 'shits' so are 60% of black (or of whatever colour) people. People are people and the majority are 'not nice'. They don't go to Church (or the Mosque) as often as they should and don't behave entirely honestly or ethically.

Regrettably, the powers that be lean heavily on the side of anyone whose skin happens to be of a different colour to 'white' or who may belong to a particular minority group. The one and only Employment Tribunal claim I've been on the losing side of was truly surreal. The only reason the claimant (who happened to be of Black Afro-Carribean ethnic origin), represented by a (hugely incompetant) lawyer (who was also of Black Afro-Carribean ethnic origin) could give as to why the extensively witnessed evidence of her seriously slagging off my client to one of their major customers was not true was that she would not have used such language as she was a "Christian". Our lawyer's question as to why, as a Christian, she had decided to 'affirm' rather than swear on the Bible before giving evidence was slapped down by the Tribunal Chairwoman because it was a question relating to 'religious belief'. In this case, counsel advised that the decision was so seriously legally flawed and obviously biaised that the decision would inevitably be overturned on appeal. However. the award was so low that it negated the commercial viability of mounting an appeal.

The problem I see is is that the slew away from the ideal of equality of opportunity to a situation where 'positive discrimination' by the State is the norm will fuel racism and add to the ranks of scum like the BNP.

 

[sjbeale]

So long as you can demonstrate you followed the 3 step dismissal procedure having done an investigation, given him a chance to answer the allegation and the right to appeal then you are heading in the right direction to win the case.

If you would like further advice and don't have a solicitor please pm me.

 

[wilfredw]

Maybe, Worker took me to a tribunal may have been better.
One thing I have noticed here - and I've been a member for a long time - is that certain members, who shall remain nameless, like to stir things up when it comes to the "others". I think the language we use says a lot about us.

 

[Bri]

Something comes to mind here
A) Was this person interviewed for the post
B) Did this person supply a cv or fill out an application form, bearing in mind a CV is not worth the paper its written on anymore.
C) Did this person go through an induction prior to.

Have you recorded those facts?

See where I'm going with this.At some point your interviewer spoke to the applicant.

How did this person know that they were in a disciplinary appeal meeting?

Check out www.peninsula-uk.com

They are experts at employment law.

 

[Happyeater]

This person replied to an advert by phone to me in the first instance. I interviewed him and he filled out a full application, in English on site.

He then was taken through health and safety (and signed off), Manual handling (and signed off), COSHH (and signed off) Person protective equipment (Signed for), Electrical safety (signed off) and a site induction (signed off).

After a few months on this job he asked for more work which was given to him and again, signed off. He made his requests to the office for chemicals and consumables by telephone, in English. He worked with staff on the first job and I have witness statements from them to say he spoke good English and confirming the issues why he was dismissed.

The invite to the disciplinary was with FSB paperwork and did mention the witness bit etc. The confirmation of dismissal was also on FSB paperwork and gave him a right of appeal, which he wanted. There is a paper trail all the way through this and copies of letters from both sides have been kept and copied.

Its when he was invited to the disciplinary meeting and attended that he lost all use and understanding of English. He refused to partake in the meeting completely and when told that if he didn't defend himself then we would make a decision based on the evidence, he then said, "Do what you like" before, once again, forgetting that he knew the language. The disciplinary meeting was taken by one of my Ops Managers who had nothing to do with the investigation etc.

He appealed through a solicitor who claimed he didn't know about H&S and other issues relating to his dismissal etc. His lack of understanding meant he'd not been able to take part in the disciplinary and we'd not provided an interpreter. He came to the appeal, refused to answer any question, made calls on his mobile and after 20 minutes left saying, "I've got things to do", erm...in English.

I wrote to him asking if he wished to have/ continue the appeal and got no reply. I recieved another letter from his solicitor saying that we'd not done things properly (interpreter etc) again and unless we paid this immigrant compensation, they'd go to a tribunal.

I called the solicitor and explained that he'd not followed procedure and I would arrange another appeal meeting if he wanted to attend and answer questions / defend himself. They said they would contact him. I confirmed my conversation in writing to the solicitor.

A few weeks later in came the tribunal request and down went another forest of trees. The solicitor dropped him after we exchanged a list of info we'd present at the tribunal and now we've had a case management, which he didn't turn up for. The case is to be scheduled for a day in January.

All I've left out are names and the reasons for dismissal.

 

[Bri]

Good luck with that, sounds like cast iron case.

 

[Charlie B ACS]

Sounds as if you've done all you possibly can. All the very best of luck.

Guess you don't routinely record calls in and out of the company, to show his standard of english.

Is it worth a PI trying to get in touch with him, and recording the conversation in English, if he can find him?

 

[Zeno]

I wouldn't place much faith in the defence of his ability to understand english once the lawyers get involved :-

"Yes, well of course he speaks basic english but he was not able to understand the technical language and legal tems used during the meeting"

"He has learned more english in the year or so since. At the time, he only knew a few words".

"He never understood any of the technical manuals, procedures etc. He signed because he thought he had to to get the job".

And so on.

 

[Happyeater]

We don't record calls, Charlie. I really don't wish to spend hundreds more on this, if I can help it. I hope the witnesses and their statements will provide enough proof at the tribunal.

Zeno, thats the worry but his solicitors have now dropped the case and, as far as I know, he has no legal defence now.

 

[alphaseocompany]

This might sound really harsh, but we will not employ any immigrants or foreign workers no matter how good their english for this exact reason, what a world we live in, foreigners come to our country and abuse the system the worst thing is our government lets them. I know plenty of businesses that fear sacking none english speaking employees incase they pull the race card or as you said "i no speak english" If they can't speak English how can they be expected to get work in this country, why can't the officials understand this when they try to persecute business owners like Happyeater. It's utterly disgraceful. Thats my 10 pence over.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Happyeater

I'm no employment law expert, and my experiences as you know is that anything is possible. One thing I would do though is your solicitor that there is no way that the court can find against you even if he doesn't show. After all, they decided to take it to a tribunal with a no-show claimant.

 

[Happyeater]

An update for those interested.

We had a Tribunal Hearing set for the 6th January and turned up with my 2 witnesses on time for a 9.45/10am start. Our friend arrived late and we didn't get in to the room until around 10.20am.

He played the 'Can't speak Engleesh' card immediately and the tribunal had to adjourn the case for a few weeks to enable an interpreter to come to the meeting too. For some reason he'd not asked for an interpreter and hadn't been offered one. He left grinning.

So, we all met again yesterday and the interpreter arrived from Manchester. The day long session was exactly that 9.45 - 4.30pm with a 40 minute lunch break. As it went on so late we have to expect a 'reserved judgement' and will be notified, by post, in the coming week or so.

Once we get the judgement I'll post a fuller account of the day. Fingers crossed justice is done.

On leaving the tribunal I spoke to the interpreter in the car park who told me he'd never been in a more difficult case because of the individual concerned and that he 'See's this all the time' (Playing the language card) and thought it would go in our favour given the witness statements and the questions he couldn't answer and lies he was caught out telling.

Now we wait..

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

Good luck. I really hope it goes your way.

Kind regards
Sandra

 

[Mister B]

Good luck to you...and can we assume that if the court rules in your favour that the guy who brought the action will pay all costs, (including yours,) or failing that, face deportation. I don't think so somehow
Mister B

 

[ken_uk]

This might sound really harsh, but we will not employ any immigrants or foreign workers no matter how good their english for this exact reason, what a world we live in, foreigners come to our country and abuse the system the worst thing is our government lets them. I know plenty of businesses that fear sacking none english speaking employees incase they pull the race card or as you said "i no speak english" If they can't speak English how can they be expected to get work in this country, why can't the officials understand this when they try to persecute business owners like Happyeater. It's utterly disgraceful. Thats my 10 pence over.

I would be careful, any immigrant of foreign worker would now have a case against your company for racial discrimination, if they applied for a job and they didnt get it.

You have just posted that you would racially discriminate against them, so they would have a pretty solid case.