How high will inflation go ?

IanSuth

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Perhaps they should.
My Dad used to lecture in Accountancy, I'm sure he told me that banks do need deposits to lend money, but they can lend multiples of that money.
Are you saying that used to be the case and now it isn't ? If that is so it explains a lot as to why so many banks give FA interest on their savings accounts.
But, on the other hand, if banks (and, one assumes building societies) do not need deposits in order to make loans, why do some offer relatively good savings rates ? What's in it for them ?

Since the financial crash there are rules covering the level of reserves a bank needs to hold, it is a very complex area and consultants (my brother is one) who can help banks ensure they meet the regs but at the least cost to themselves do very well out of it

to quote the first paragraph of this document (note the bit i have bolded - even they admit what they do isnt the real economy)

This document presents one of the Basel Committee’s key reforms to develop a more resilient banking sector: the Liquidity Coverage Ratio (LCR). The objective of the LCR is to promote the short-term resilience of the liquidity risk profile of banks. It does this by ensuring that banks have an adequate stock of unencumbered high-quality liquid assets (HQLA) that can be converted easily and immediately in private markets into cash to meet their liquidity needs for a 30 calendar day liquidity stress scenario. The LCR will improve the banking sector’s ability to absorb shocks arising from financial and economic stress, whatever the source, thus reducing the risk of spillover from the financial sector to the real economy. This document sets out the LCR standard and timelines for its implementation.

https://www.bis.org/publ/bcbs238.pdf
 
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fisicx

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But, on the other hand, if banks (and, one assumes building societies) do not need deposits in order to make loans, why do some offer relatively good savings rates ? What's in it for them ?
Banks invest your money. You give them a tenner and they pass it on to a fund manager. If you want your tenner back they have to borrow it from a lender (because your tenner no longer exists). Once you move away from cash there isn’t any money anywhere, It’s just an number in a database. When you transfer money it’s just a change to the database.
 
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gpietersz

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    My Dad used to lecture in Accountancy, I'm sure he told me that banks do need deposits to lend money, but they can lend multiples of that money.
    Are you saying that used to be the case and now it isn't ? If that is so it explains a lot as to why so many banks give FA interest on their savings accounts.

    That is the textbook case. Even without reserve requirements they need to keep some money to operate with so will not lend 100% of deposits anyway.

    There are still constraints, but they can create more than the traditional multiple model says as a result of money mostly existing as bank deposits - the moment a loan is made, it is deposited. Detailed explanation here: https://econpapers.repec.org/script...7123544205CE476E01654;h=repec:boe:qbullt:0128

    I think this also means reserve requirements are less effective, although I have not got my head around this - I was taught the multiplier stuff, but have only read a few articles on this.

    What the central bank does do is set interest rates, and that is why banks pay little on deposits.
     
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    DontAsk

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    But, on the other hand, if banks (and, one assumes building societies) do not need deposits in order to make loans, why do some offer relatively good savings rates ? What's in it for them ?
    They want your money.

    The point is that it's a long time since Building Societies had to match savings to loans. Since they nearly all de-mutualised they have had access to other forms of funding, just like the banks. Issuing bonds is one way.

    You might argue the bond-holders are then savers but it's a very different system to what it used to be when you had to go cap-in hand to the local BS manager and beg for a mortgage.
     
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    gpietersz

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    Since they nearly all de-mutualised they have had access to other forms of funding, just like the banks. Issuing bonds is one way.

    If they are demutualised they are not a building society any more.

    Building societies could issue PIBS, which are basically a bond with membership thrown in.
     
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    So, anybody got any bloody ideas?

    Anyone?

    Please!

    (Asking for a friend!)

    Yes! I'm going to sell everything and move to a desert island. There, I shall sit on the beach stuffing myself with burgers and fries and throwing all my rubbish into the sea. Then, when funds are exhausted, I shall return to this sceptred isle and become a vampire on the bosom of the state. Happy days.
     
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    But, on the other hand, if banks (and, one assumes building societies) do not need deposits in order to make loans, why do some offer relatively good savings rates? What's in it for them?
    Read this lot!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

    And this lot!
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_creation

    Then, when funds are exhausted, I shall return to this sceptred isle and become a vampire on the bosom of the state. Happy days.
    Do you mean you will enter politics? That's what that sounds like!
     
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    SillyBill

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    It puzzles me why the BoE is going to raise interest rates to combat inflation.

    This of course, is the classic response to an overheating economy - one where there is too much money chasing too few goods. The theory being that if you take money out of the economy you will suppress demand, prices will come down and the economy will cool.

    This approach might work if it's just the UK, but what about when the main contributors to inflation are global problems - oil and gas prices, supply chain issues ? Suppressing demand in the UK won't make a jot of difference to global prices and problems. Suppressing global demand, (eg. oil prices at the height of the pandemic), will.

    The other argument is that raising interest rates strengthens the pound and makes imports cheaper but it's unclear how importing more manufactured goods will aid our economy.

    It just seems like raising interest rates to cure inflation is akin to bleeding the patient to make him better and could lead to 'stagflation' (economic stagnation plus inflation).

    I'm sure the brains at the BoE have answers to all this but I haven't seen them, nor does Googling the issue produce a satisfactory response.

    Anyone here know?

    If you don't raise rates (good argument they can't) then the banking sector is at risk of issuing loans TODAY where the principal they get back TOMORROW is devalued more than their rate of return from their interest yield. It isn't actually difficult to understand this, drop all the bear, dove, overheating etc. BS bingo about moving rates and the simple fact is rates should rise to offset the loss of purchasing power of currency over a loan term when inflation is stoked. A central bank is supposed to be a prudent manager stewarding credit issuance and a healthy banking sector. Ofc the whole system is a joke so it doesn't actually work like it should on paper anymore.
     
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    Alan

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    If borrowing money for a purchase is more expensive people, will be less likely to borrow money and make that purchase.

    Unless interest rates are substantially less than inflation.

    Lets say inflation is 10% and interest rates are 2.5%

    So lets assume that the value of what you buy tracks inflation approximately e.g. land, gold, property

    Then the only sensible thing to do is borrow as much as you possible can and buy as much as you possibly can.

    Lets say inflation is now 25% and interest rates are 5%, and car depreciation is 10% ( fairly typical ) you are better off to buy the £10,000 3 year old car now than in a years time, as a 3 year old car will cost £12,500 - wereas you lost £1250 depreciation plus £500 finance = £11,750 - so £750 better off and had the utility of a new car sooner.

    ( approximate maths :) )
     
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    fisicx

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    Surely their deposits count towards their equity ?
    You are trying to simplify something that is very complex. Did you read those Wikipedia articles @The Byre linked to? They explain part of how it all works.
     
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    Surely their deposits count towards their equity ?
    No the deposits are money owed to other people. The main limitation on lending is a calculation of the Risk Weighted assets versus the Common Equity Tier One capital. (CET1) RWA tends to be something like 10 times CET1 although often less than 10.

    The regulators place limits on having a minimum percentage. This percentage varies and quite a few banks are well over the minimum limit.
     
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    The reason so many here do not understand the Machiavellian contortions of the money markets is because they are just that - Machiavellian and contorted!

    When I studied economics many decades ago, there was none of this malarkey about repos and reverse repos and mortgage-backed securities and nobody thought that it was a good idea the buy up a billion dollars of bad debt and then create a fund that is ten times the nominal value of the debt, call that a synthetic fund and sell shares in that to people who borrowed money from us to buy those shares and because they had borrowed money from us to buy shares in a fund made up of debt that is ten times the size of our first bundle, call that a synthetic fund squared.

    So now we have created a new debt of $10bn out of a one billion dollar debt bundle - and guess what we do with all that new debt! Yes! You've guessed it! We include it in our newest bundles of debt!

    Had anyone even suggested such a scheme back then, they would have been regarded as either mad or criminal. But that is where the banks were in 2007. And it is where governments and central banks are today.

    The original mechanics of fractional reserve banking was a good way for the money supply to grow in line with growing productivity and real wealth. Today, thanks to the Magic Money Tree, it is a Ponzi scheme.

    You cannot taper a Ponzi scheme!

    Our problem is that you and me and Mrs. Millie Tooley of 17, Oil Drum Lane, Sidcup can all do nothing about it. It is what happens when the banksters get greedy and governments get stupid. It's what happens when the media employs arts graduates as journalists who cannot follow this stuff.

    But what we can do is to retreat from that world to the real world of real things that are of real value.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Unless interest rates are substantially less than inflation.

    Lets say inflation is 10% and interest rates are 2.5%

    So lets assume that the value of what you buy tracks inflation approximately e.g. land, gold, property

    Then the only sensible thing to do is borrow as much as you possible can and buy as much as you possibly can.

    Lets say inflation is now 25% and interest rates are 5%, and car depreciation is 10% ( fairly typical ) you are better off to buy the £10,000 3 year old car now than in a years time, as a 3 year old car will cost £12,500 - wereas you lost £1250 depreciation plus £500 finance = £11,750 - so £750 better off and had the utility of a new car sooner.

    ( approximate maths :) )

    And that is why property is the price it is - house price inflation has been outstripping mortgage interest rates therefore it has made sense to borrow as much as possible to buy into the house price inflation

    When that stops it is all going to go horribly wrong for all the people mortgaged to the hilt (especially those who gambled their pension literally on buy to let just leveraging each property to get the next

    The combination of huge house price inflation plus graduates owing £80k+ upon leaving uni almost guarantees a crash as the property market needs people entering on the bottom rung - if they are paying to cover uni debts they can't also save for a deposit whilst simultaneously paying high rents to cover the buy to let landlords high mortgage to cover his purchase of the HMO

    The amount that wages would need to rise to allow for the 50% of youngsters doing a degree to be able to actually pay back that debt in a sensible timescale whilst saving for a deposit is eye watering (I saw it somewhere calculated and it was an average grad salary of £40k+but that wasnt even using recent figures, i suspect close to £50k now or twice the current £24k average)
     
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    fisicx

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    Many young people have no intention of buying. They are more likely to move regularly to find work so buying makes no sense. And many consider a car unnecessary. If they rent close to work they don’t need a car and for longer journeys will get an Uber or rent a car. They don’t think like us crusties.
     
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    D

    Deleted member 59730

    When I studied economics many decades ago, there was none of this malarkey about repos and reverse repos and mortgage-backed securities and nobody thought that it was a good idea the buy up a billion dollars of bad debt and then create a fund that is ten times the nominal value of the debt, call that a synthetic fund and sell shares in that to people who borrowed money from us to buy those shares and because they had borrowed money from us to buy shares in a fund made up of debt that is ten times the size of our first bundle, call that a synthetic fund squared.
    You missed something!

    You then start trading in this made up fund and make made up money by selling it and buying it back several times a day. By the end of the day its a bit used because scores of banks have owned it for a few minutes during the day.
     
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    You then start trading in this made up fund and make made up money by selling it and buying it back several times a day. By the end of the day its a bit used because scores of banks have owned it for a few minutes during the day.
    I could go on the comedy circuits and all I would have to do is explain how the world's money markets work! (Well, the bits of it I can just about understand!)
     
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    fisicx

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    Many moons ago when I was doing my degree we had a physicist do a talk on the LSE. Things were happening they didn't understand. It turns out their systems constantly tested prices - thousands of times a second - which resulted in microchanges to the shareprice. This produced a sawtooth pattern which collapsed once the program had finished testing. It would then start all over again. And this is across all companies. Millions of micro transaction every second. And nobody knows how it works. The programs have become so complex there isn't anyone anywhere who can understand all the code.

    Now take this model global and you begin to see why thing go awry. The computers run the money markets not people.
     
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    WaveJumper

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    Many moons ago when I was doing my degree we had a physicist do a talk on the LSE. Things were happening they didn't understand. It turns out their systems constantly tested prices - thousands of times a second - which resulted in microchanges to the shareprice. This produced a sawtooth pattern which collapsed once the program had finished testing. It would then start all over again. And this is across all companies. Millions of micro transaction every second. And nobody knows how it works. The programs have become so complex there isn't anyone anywhere who can understand all the code.

    Now take this model global and you begin to see why thing go awry. The computers run the money markets not people.
    HFT - High-frequency trading
     
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    gpietersz

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    And many consider a car unnecessary. If they rent close to work they don’t need a car and for longer journeys will get an Uber or rent a car.

    I did that when I lived in central London and Machnester and did not have kids. No car, rent one when I needed it for things like holidays. With kids or livign outside a reasonable size city its a lot harder to make that work.
     
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    UKSBD

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    Many moons ago when I was doing my degree we had a physicist do a talk on the LSE. Things were happening they didn't understand. It turns out their systems constantly tested prices - thousands of times a second - which resulted in microchanges to the shareprice. This produced a sawtooth pattern which collapsed once the program had finished testing. It would then start all over again. And this is across all companies. Millions of micro transaction every second. And nobody knows how it works. The programs have become so complex there isn't anyone anywhere who can understand all the code.

    Now take this model global and you begin to see why thing go awry. The computers run the money markets not people.

    Frankenstein’s Numbers "The Fear Index" Robert Harris - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Fear_Index
     
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    Talay

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    As an economist in a previous life, some good points and some, shall we say, more political than science based but what is undeniable is that inflation is nowhere near 4%.

    Where's the big costs ? wages, raw materials, power ?

    Minimum wages went up 6.2% this year and will go up 6.6% next year. Even for staff over those minimums, they want raises too.

    Our card and paper suppliers have raised prices 9 times this year and we are now paying over double previous costs. We also have to order on huge lead times and accept any price increases in the interim.

    Gas prices are up to 6 times the previous and we were offered new contracts at 15 times the lowest cost we are currently paying. Yes, 15 times ! Electricity is up 300% in 5 years.

    Fuel is past 150p per litre. It is up over 20% in 6 months.

    4% inflation ? Bollox.
     
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    4% inflation ? Bollox.
    I cannot pin it down, but the impression I get is that we may well be past the point of no return to very high inflation. Just how high we shall see!

    Reasons -

    1. It's baked in. The PPI (production price index) was running at 13% in Summer and it seems to be far higher right now. Add wage and other increases, such as farming production costs of 22% and we see a tsunami of inflation that has already happened further up the line, coming down upon us!

    2. Acceptance. The supermarkets have been trying to limit the amount being passed onto the customer and they held at 5% increase in Summer, but a little bird has told me that they have experimented with full increases on some goods and customers seem to largely be accepting those increases.

    3. Expecting more inflation. We are (as a company) seeing predictive increases in energy and other costs for next year's contracts. i.e. the suppliers are expecting further increases over and above those that have already come through and pricing accordingly. When people begin to calculate future increases in prices that have not happened yet, that is when inflation gains its own momentum and becomes dangerous.

    3. Commodity inflation. There has been a lamentable lack of investment into certain key commodities such as oil, gas, gold, silver and the so-called 'battery metals' such as nickel, cobalt and lithium. This lack of investment has been partially for political reasons and partly because the prices were far, far too low. Also, the prices we see on the ticker are often not the prices we pay - silver is at about $25 an ounce but try buying a real-life physical ton of the stuff at that price!

    4. Even more tax increases are coming! Even now, because government bonds are often index-linked, the UK is spending more on interest on those bonds than on defense! Now add the inflation in the pipeline and either they will have to go back to the Magic Money Tree or dip into our pockets again. The government used to give the daft reply "Rates are so low that we can afford it!" to criticism of their high borrowings. Well, we can't!

    5. They can't raise interest rates! Real interest rates are below real inflation - so effectively we have negative interest rates. Imagine if central bank rates were higher than inflation, let's say about 2% higher. So now the BoE rate would be at least 6% and rising - imagine what would happen to the cost of all those company bonds and mortgages! Debts would be defaulting left, right and centre, the government would run out of money and the economy would crash! The best the BoE can do is to make little gestures of nominal rises that are waaaay below inflation. As the tsunami bears down on us, all the BoE and this government can do is to look on helpless!
     
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    Bob Morgan

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    I cannot pin it down, but the impression I get is that we may well be past the point of no return to very high inflation. Just how high we shall see!

    Reasons -

    1. It's baked in. The PPI (production price index) was running at 13% in Summer and it seems to be far higher right now. Add wage and other increases, such as farming production costs of 22% and we see a tsunami of inflation that has already happened further up the line, coming down upon us!

    2. Acceptance. The supermarkets have been trying to limit the amount being passed onto the customer and they held at 5% increase in Summer, but a little bird has told me that they have experimented with full increases on some goods and customers seem to largely be accepting those increases.

    3. Expecting more inflation. We are (as a company) seeing predictive increases in energy and other costs for next year's contracts. i.e. the suppliers are expecting further increases over and above those that have already come through and pricing accordingly. When people begin to calculate future increases in prices that have not happened yet, that is when inflation gains its own momentum and becomes dangerous.

    3. Commodity inflation. There has been a lamentable lack of investment into certain key commodities such as oil, gas, gold, silver and the so-called 'battery metals' such as nickel, cobalt and lithium. This lack of investment has been partially for political reasons and partly because the prices were far, far too low. Also, the prices we see on the ticker are often not the prices we pay - silver is at about $25 an ounce but try buying a real-life physical ton of the stuff at that price!

    4. Even more tax increases are coming! Even now, because government bonds are often index-linked, the UK is spending more on interest on those bonds than on defense! Now add the inflation in the pipeline and either they will have to go back to the Magic Money Tree or dip into our pockets again. The government used to give the daft reply "Rates are so low that we can afford it!" to criticism of their high borrowings. Well, we can't!

    5. They can't raise interest rates! Real interest rates are below real inflation - so effectively we have negative interest rates. Imagine if central bank rates were higher than inflation, let's say about 2% higher. So now the BoE rate would be at least 6% and rising - imagine what would happen to the cost of all those company bonds and mortgages! Debts would be defaulting left, right and centre, the government would run out of money and the economy would crash! The best the BoE can do is to make little gestures of nominal rises that are waaaay below inflation. As the tsunami bears down on us, all the BoE and this government can do is to look on helpless!
    And, so to summarise . . . . We're up S*** Creek, in a Barbed-Wire Canoe, without a Paddle!
     
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    IanSuth

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    Many young people have no intention of buying. They are more likely to move regularly to find work so buying makes no sense. And many consider a car unnecessary. If they rent close to work they don’t need a car and for longer journeys will get an Uber or rent a car. They don’t think like us crusties.

    That actually makes it worse - rental prices are more than mortgage on an equivalent property currently (and they will rise in line with interest rates at least as fast as mortgage repayments with so many buy-to-let landlords financial security resting on it), a cheap car costs about £1k a year to own, you will easily spend more than that on Ubers (especially with recent fare rises) and Zip cars. That means those young people will be demanding a higher wage rise
     
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    fisicx

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    ...a cheap car costs about £1k a year to own, you will easily spend more than that on Ubers (especially with recent fare rises) and Zip cars.
    Plus insurance, road tax, mot and petrol. Average cost per year without finance is over £3000. And many young people share a property which make their individual contribution lower than a mortgage. It's only in the UK where we have this obsession with owning your own property. In most of Europe, renting is much more common.
     
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    IanSuth

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    Plus insurance, road tax, mot and petrol. Average cost per year without finance is over £3000. And many young people share a property which make their individual contribution lower than a mortgage. It's only in the UK where we have this obsession with owning your own property. In most of Europe, renting is much more common.

    Insurance £500, rd tax £135, MOT £55 leaving £300 for wear and tear (buy a cheap car for £500 and scrap when it goes wrong after 2 to 3 yrs like most sensible young people), petrol is petrol in a hire car or your own

    Not sure where in the country you are but in Reading renting a HMO still comes up more than a mortgage. renting in a shared house is roughly £500 per bedroom per month, that is £140K worth of mortgage, a bottom of the pile 2 bedroom terrace is max £220k to buy, 2 bedroom flat in a small ex council block nr me is £170k same block a rental is £900pcm (just looked that up now) 5min walk to a waterloo line station, that £900pcm would currently pay a £200k 30yr mortgage
     
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    IanSuth

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    If you want a ton of silver I know where there are tons for free. You just have to find a way to remove it from old xray films.

    Shred film, leach in cyanide and then electrolysis of the resultant liquid is the usual method but for obvious reasons needs to be done by a specialist in a controlled environment (i play rugby with a radiographer and have had this conversation in case anyone was wondering why i randomly know this)
     
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