How high will inflation go ?

Collapse the economy or a government default - pick your winner.
They'll come in neck-on-neck!

The OECD stated that US government deficit spending was 15.5% of their total GDP. Yes, you did read that correctly! But don't worry - the figure for the UK was 17% - now you can worry!

I can't wait for the anarchy to commence.
Be careful of what you wish for!
 
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Justin Smith

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The big BIG question, of course, is there going to be a worldwide recession ?

I would say probably yes.

How is it possible to lose all that economic productivity (for months on end) whilst paying millions of people to stay at home being unproductive, without a massive bill coming in somewhere along the line.....
 
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UKSBD

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    I don't know how high it will go - I am guessing at 15%. But in some sectors it will be more. Fuel has gone up by almost 50% in a few months, and is holding at the higher prices. It seems likely that utilities might go up by a similar amount, maybe more.

    It's almost irrelevant though with all what has happened.

    It's the trend that is important

    If everything goes up 20% in one year, the headline may be that inflation is 20%, but if it goes back down 10% next year does that mean we have -10% inflation in that year?
     
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    gpietersz

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    Collapse the economy or a government default - pick your winner

    A government will never default on debt in its own currency. It can just print money to pay it.

    The problem is that it can cause inflation.

    We have had low inflation and interest rates for a long time. As long as we avoid hyper inflation I do not see that it is so terrible. It has advantages: more headroom to cut interest rates when needed. Once cash is abolished negative interest rates will work, but that is a long way off.
     
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    D

    Deleted member 59730

    You could reason that inflation is overdue anyway. When the great paper money con was first introduced the BoE tempted people to use it by giving a 3% discount. Surprisingly the 3% figure was remarkably stable over many time periods. Our recent history of very low bank rates has built up quite a logjam of things needing doing. Money needs to be spent on Climate Change infrastructure.
     
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    MBE2017

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    The simple answer is nobody knows, unlikely to go to the heady heights of 27% back in the 70’s, but 10 to 15% seems to be a sensible area atm, then it will depend on what the Governments of the world do.

    I find it amusing people referring to wage increases, not met anyone who has been given one in the last few years, this is more a supply issue, causing inflation. If a recession hits as I and several others believe, that will be partly corrected.

    We are in for a few interesting years, plus a fair bit of pain.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    A government will never default on debt in its own currency. It can just print money to pay it.

    The problem is that it can cause inflation.

    We have had low inflation and interest rates for a long time. As long as we avoid hyper inflation I do not see that it is so terrible. It has advantages: more headroom to cut interest rates when needed. Once cash is abolished negative interest rates will work, but that is a long way off.

    I take it you do not approve of people saving then ?
    How things have changed, I remember John Major bringing out ISAs to try and encourage saving, now it's mugs' game.....
     
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    fisicx

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    I take it you do not approve of people saving then ?
    Nope. Leaving cash in the bank is pointless. Invest in something and start making it work for you.
     
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    Alan

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    Seriously, as regards when 2nd hand car prices will return to sanity, I have read 6 months in some places and 2023 in others.

    Some already are.

    In June I purchased a 3 year old car from a main dealer. A few weeks later I was starting to think it was not what I wanted (too long a reason to explain here ) so asked the dealer if they would buy it back and they offered it at 18% less - fair enough they are a dealer, but decided to live with it a while. A few weeks later I checked webuyanycar and they would buy it at only 6% less than my retail purchase price. As it happened I adapted something and decided to keep the car. Out of interest I checked again and WBAC price had gone up to offering what I paid retail , i.e. 18% on the initial dealer trade price.

    So I kept looking out of interest. By mid October the WBAC offer was now 34% higher than the June dealer trade price.

    But since end Oct and now the WBAC price has dropped 2%

    OK this is on one particular car - butI think the market hit a peak and now is levelling off down slowly.

    Like all 'news' on this stuff the media only get to it once it has happened.

    That is my theory anyway.
     
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    CPI is now officially running at just over 4%. So I looked at the CPIH (i.e. inc. housing and the cost of heating that house) and picked off a few big-ticket items, such as housing at 33% of the basket, food and drink at 12.5% of the basket and transport at 11%. So just those three account for over 50% of the basket.

    August 2020 to August 2021 -
    Housing - house prices increased by 10%. Heating oil up by 54%.
    Transport - all used cars up by 20%, popular used cars by 33%, fuel 34%.
    Food and drink - Bacon 17%, beef 16%, pork 8%, fish 11%, chicken 9%, all fruit and veg 24%.

    If I assume that the remaining parts of the basket increased by similar amounts, then inflation in the UK is actually running at about 9% in the real world.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    If I assume that the remaining parts of the basket increased by similar amounts, then inflation in the UK is actually running at about 9% in the real world.
    Judging by the price increases most of my suppliers have foisted on me I would agree, in fact it might possibly be higher than 9%....
     
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    fisicx

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    If saving is such a negative thing to do why did John Major introduce ISA's ?
    It was a really good thing back then but leaving money in the bank now is just bonkers. It's losing it's value. We are paying off chunks of the mortgage and overpaying as much as we can.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    It was a really good thing back then but leaving money in the bank now is just bonkers. It's losing it's value. We are paying off chunks of the mortgage and overpaying as much as we can.

    I would agree with you that leaving cash in the bank now is bonkers, unless you have no choice .....
    I have no debts to pay off, but on the other hand I will need some money to buy this newer car when the prices normalise, poss next year. What do I do with that £10K if the interest rate is close to zero but inflation is way about 5% and climbing ?
    The banks and Building Societies need deposits don't they, or how do they lend money ? How are they going to get any deposits if they're paying sweet FA interest ?
     
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    Justin Smith

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    My ISAs have grown 32% in the last year. ( Of course they are not in cash)

    I transferred all my pension to cash bonds back in 2017, I was spooked by Brexit, Trump and the N Korean's nuclear threats ( ! ). Then, when I reckoned there'd be inflation after all this Covid suppression with furlough payments eased off I had them move it back into stocks in Dec. It was a very worthwhile piece of gambling (because that is what it was), but I need access to some money, plus I do not want to put all my eggs in one basket (the stock market) anyway. Thus I am concerned about inflation and I want them to raise interest rates, and the longer they wait the higher they'll have to raise them.....
     
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    Judging by the price increases most of my suppliers have foisted on me I would agree, in fact it might possibly be higher than 9%....
    I calculated it at 9% according to the weighting of the ONS 2021 basket.

    It did it just by taking the figures from the various industry bodies such as cars by the AA, beef and pork by the meat industry and heating oil and house prices from the various price comparison sites.

    What would be more interesting, would be to take a 1980s and a 1990s basket and also to see what the ONS actually puts into that 2021 basket, i.e. the individual items. Their figures look very fishy to me!

    When I see farming cost inflation running at 22% and Proctor & Gamble reported that their costs have increased by 13.5% and the AA told us that the ten most popular used cars (3-5 years old) increased in price by 33% and their fuel by 34%, to be told that inflation went up to just 4% is without any credibility.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    The BBC are so Effin' biased, it's a joke. Nothing must even suggest that all that Covid suppression was in any way a questionable idea.

    Inflation: UK prices soar at fastest rate for almost ten years
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59316544

    No where in that report does it mention the main reason for all this, closing down much of the economy for months, and, at the same time, paying millions of people huge amounts of money for not actually doing anything productive.
    The closest it comes is this :

    Shortages of many goods, including building materials and computer chips, are causing supply problems and pushing up prices.

    But nothing about WHY they are shortages.....
     
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    C19 was the catalyst that triggered this rising inflation and commodities shortage - but not the ultimate cause.

    There are huge shortages for lithium, copper, silver, pure chip-grade silicon, oil, uranium, gas, well, you get the idea! Almost everything! The prices for these things were far too low, so mines were not developed and who stores industrial amounts of silver for all those silly electric cars at $20 per ounce?

    Now we are running out of oil, but have huge reserves in the ground.

    But I have been putting my money where my big mouth is - I have started a closed PE group last week, investing in highly speculative commodities. We started with eight totally unproven gold and silver prospects, all of which were in known deposit locations and all of which had serious geology studies using the latest and most modern techniques.

    It can take a year or two to dig a gold or silver mine - typically, it takes about $5m-$10m to start a mine in a safe jurisdiction like Canada or the US and the typical stake is $1 a share, so it takes just a few trades to bring the price right down to a few cents. That's where we step in and buy 'reasonable' packages, so as not to spook the horses. (We're already up by about 25% in one week after the latest inflation news!)

    But this has to be a long play taking a year or two - the damn mine has to actually come in and be verified! But if it does, you can multiply your money simply by moving the decimal point a couple of places!

    In the mean time, while the market is waiting for people to invest in digging out these commodities, shortages occur and the prices go up and up and up! So by the time the mine comes in, the prices look bonkers.

    Commodities are unlike Bitcoin or dot-coms. We actually do need them!

    The real difference is that you have to understand the market and its interaction with the prevailing technology. That means doing your homework!
     
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    fisicx

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    No where in that report does it mention the main reason for all this, closing down much of the economy for months, and, at the same time, paying millions of people huge amounts of money for not actually doing anything productive.
    Thats because covid wasn’t the cause. It actually may have delayed the inflation rises. It’s not a UK problem, the whole world has now realised we are running out of stuff. I’m working with a client in NZ and all building work has stopped because they can’t get the materials.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Thats because covid wasn’t the cause [of the shortages]. It actually may have delayed the inflation rises. It’s not a UK problem, the whole world has now realised we are running out of stuff. I’m working with a client in NZ and all building work has stopped because they can’t get the materials.

    I'm sorry I just do not agree with you.
    Fact 1 - We are experiencing unprecedented shortages. This has never happened in peacetime before.
    Fact 2 - Much of the economy was either shut down completely or had its productivity severely affected for months and months over the last year and a half. This has never happened in peacetime before.

    Apart from the obvious logic that is too much of a coincidence.

    As regards high inflation I am even more sure it's down to Covid, but this time it's the furlough payments (and other forms of financial support), made even more inflationary because these occurred at the same time as the economy was suppressed.

    I cannot help thinking people who do not accept the above is largely because people who were in favour of suppression of society and the economy (in order to try and suppress Covid) do not want to believe what is staring them in the face.
     
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    fisicx

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    From where ?
    It’s made up money. Which is why we had the crash in 2008. Everyone promised everyone else they would pay back the loan but it was all pretend money. It never existed. The uk banks have to hold a reserve but day to day lending is all done with electronic transactions, the actual cash doesn’t exist.
     
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    It puzzles me why the BoE is going to raise interest rates to combat inflation.

    This of course, is the classic response to an overheating economy - one where there is too much money chasing too few goods. The theory being that if you take money out of the economy you will suppress demand, prices will come down and the economy will cool.

    This approach might work if it's just the UK, but what about when the main contributors to inflation are global problems - oil and gas prices, supply chain issues ? Suppressing demand in the UK won't make a jot of difference to global prices and problems. Suppressing global demand, (eg. oil prices at the height of the pandemic), will.

    The other argument is that raising interest rates strengthens the pound and makes imports cheaper but it's unclear how importing more manufactured goods will aid our economy.

    It just seems like raising interest rates to cure inflation is akin to bleeding the patient to make him better and could lead to 'stagflation' (economic stagnation plus inflation).

    I'm sure the brains at the BoE have answers to all this but I haven't seen them, nor does Googling the issue produce a satisfactory response.

    Anyone here know?
     
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    IanSuth

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    It puzzles me why the BoE is going to raise interest rates to combat inflation.

    This of course, is the classic response to an overheating economy - one where there is too much money chasing too few goods. The theory being that if you take money out of the economy you will suppress demand, prices will come down and the economy will cool.

    This approach might work if it's just the UK, but what about when the main contributors to inflation are global problems - oil and gas prices, supply chain issues ? Suppressing demand in the UK won't make a jot of difference to global prices and problems. Suppressing global demand, (eg. oil prices at the height of the pandemic), will.

    The other argument is that raising interest rates strengthens the pound and makes imports cheaper but it's unclear how importing more manufactured goods will aid our economy.

    It just seems like raising interest rates to cure inflation is akin to bleeding the patient to make him better and could lead to 'stagflation' (economic stagnation plus inflation).

    I'm sure the brains at the BoE have answers to all this but I haven't seen them, nor does Googling the issue produce a satisfactory response.

    Anyone here know?

    And that was the exact reason given by the BofE as to why they didnt raise interest rates - the inflationary pressures are external to the UK economy so using interest rates as a lever within the uk economy would not affect them.
     
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    Financial-Modeller

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    Whilst we obviously have the benefit of hindsight, its unfortunate that the underlying nature of your question relates to the extra cost of replacing your car at a time of abnormal price inflation, but you turned equity investments into cash, and since then (for the same reasons) your equity investments would have doubled in value.
     
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    IanSuth

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    So why are they doing it now (predicted) ?

    They will need to do it at some point to try and cap domestically caused inflation but it is a delicate balancing act, not least as poorer voters are those most affected by inflation of food and energy prices. The BofE is supposed to be politically neutral but it obviously isnt and it also has a governmentally set inflation target of 2% which it is bound to try and hit, plus pensioners (who on average are more tory) want interest on their savings
     
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    gpietersz

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    This approach might work if it's just the UK, but what about when the main contributors to inflation are global problems - oil and gas prices, supply chain issues ?

    It reduces aggregate demand. So although demand for oil and gas will not reduce, demand for everything else will.

    The rise in the value of a currency when interest rates rise is temporary - it will rise but then depreciate (or depreciate more or appreciate less) than it would have other wise.
     
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    Thats because covid wasn’t the cause. It actually may have delayed the inflation rises. It’s not a UK problem, the whole world has now realised we are running out of stuff. I’m working with a client in NZ and all building work has stopped because they can’t get the materials.
    As regards high inflation I am even more sure it's down to Covid, but this time it's the furlough payments (and other forms of financial support), made even more inflationary because these occurred at the same time as the economy was suppressed.
    Sorry guys, but actually, you are both right. I fact you are both dead right!

    It's a case of everything happening at once! Imagine the world's real economy in physical goods is a huge complex and intertwining set of streams of traffic. In days gone by, those streams moved slowly and most movements were local. Bricks were fired in large kilns and stored in huge piles on-site and brought to a housing project by horse and cart and later by lorries. Food was seasonal and local and in N.Europe, it was food that could be stored over Winter. Payment was in commodity or representative currency, i.e. money made from or backed by gold and silver.

    But then we started borrowing and moving goods further and faster - so we got wealthier in real terms. We had trains and boats, followed by trucks. Then we got really fast with fiat currencies and we borrowed even more - even governments and banks borrowed. We kept the storage of goods and commodities down to a minimum.

    Then along came all kinds of innovations like the just-in-time movement of just about every damn thing we used. The Internet meant that we could compare every outlet and supplier and we could offer our goods across Planet Earth.

    The streams of those goods-traffic were moving at break-neck speeds. But so too were the mounds of debt! Banks were no longer crusty old buildings with vaults of cash, deeds and gold - they were now virtual. Trading floors were now rooms full of screens, manned by people with the letters DM or DMS after their names. Money moved in milliseconds and credit agreements between banks lasted hours or even just minutes.

    Then it happened! BANG! One of the streams broke down. It had been wobbly and suffering jams and back-ups since January 2007 and monetary economists had warned that it was over-heating since about 2005. But in September 2007, newly appointed risk manager John Breit at investment bank Merrill Lynch filed a report that just one derivative of a derivative of a debt bundle was close to worthless.

    This news reached the desk of CEO Stan O'Neal and Breit was called for. He had to explain what it was - a synthetic collateralized debt obligation squared. A side-bet using borrowed money on a copy of a bundle of debt - a derivative of a derivative.
    "How bad is it?"
    "Six billion, but probably a whole lot more. We've got dozens of CDOs in the pipeline."

    Breit had just informed one of the most powerful men on Wall Street that the party was over.

    The rest, as they say in cheesy documentaries, is history.

    Governments and central banks had to step in. They reached back in history to 1905 and to the teachings of an obscure German economist called Georg Friederich Knapp and 'Chartalism' theories of steering an economy by altering the money supply. This was taken up by a movement called Modern Monetary Theory and their advocacy of a quantitative money supply.

    You can create money (quantitative easing) to boost the economy in depressed times and destroy money (quantitative tightening) to prevent it from overheating in boom times - and tightening also helps to steady the purchasing power of money and prevent inflation.

    Thus was born a wave of quantitative easing around the world known as QE. And by the skin of their teeth, it sort of worked.

    But then, just as Napoleon predicted, the world trembled - China awoke. And China got the MMT bug along with everyone else! And nobody wanted to tighten - we can print our way to prosperity, right?

    And along came the C19 bug. Lockdown. Streams of goods slowed right down and some streams stopped flowing completely. QE2, QE3 and then what some have called QE-Buzz Lightyear ("To infinity and beyond!") was born.

    With C19 came the need to keep whole economies afloat by direct means. Pay people and companies directly and another child was born - Helicopter Money! BBL, Stimmies, furlough payments, grants - trillions were created and fed directly into economies everywhere.

    So here we are with a whole new set of problems -

    Problem 1 - Everywhere we look, there are debt bubbles and they are huge beyond imagining. Government debt, private debt - more debt than anybody can ever repay. Debt that is given another name to hide the mountains of debt. Debt that must default, either by wild inflation or directly through bankrupcies.

    Problem 2 - Our old friend inflation. First came asset price inflation - houses, then shares, then came the shortages and means of production inflated, followed by consumer durables such as cars. Now food prices and vital commodities are affected. Government statisticians were ordered to hide the inflation by altering the types of goods they survey - but people ain't stupid. You can't expect shoppers to pay 40% more for cane sugar and 34% more for petrol and tell them that inflation is now just 4.2% with a straight face - and expect anyone to believe you!

    Problem 3 - The Roach Motel problem! The roaches check-in, but they don't check-out. Central banks cannot raise interest rates significantly, to stem inflation, as that would cause an avalanche of credit defaults. They can't leave things as they are, as that could cause inflation to accelerate. And they can't tighten as that will bring the economy to a grinding halt of stagnation.

    Problem 4 - Climate change. It will cost us huge resources to adapt to a warmer climate. Yes, the world is getting warmer and do not expect any government to actually do anything concrete about reducing CO2 - they have elections to win (or in China, a teetering economy and billions of people to placate). And with climate change, come weather events that will cause more shortages - you can't plough a water-logged field, you can't harvest wheat in the rain - and you can't do anything if you are flooded out!

    Problem 5 - Commodity shortages are everywhere. We are going green about 50 years too late! So now we are panicking. Oil companies were not allowed to drill for new wells, so that is in short supply. Gas - the same. And now all those electric cars need gold, silver, platinum and vast amounts of copper and other basic materials. But the big users and traders in those things have been manipulating the prices down, so nearly all commodities were under-priced - and because they were under-priced, new mines were not dug. So now their prices are about to explode, thereby making everything so much worse!

    It puzzles me why the BoE is going to raise interest rates to combat inflation.
    They and the CEB and the Fed cannot raise interest rates and they know it! What they are doing is TALKING about raising rates and reducing QE (that's 'tapering' in Wall Street jargon).

    If there is any raise at all, it will be nominal and well below inflation. See the Roach Motel problem!

    So, anybody got any bloody ideas?

    Anyone?

    Please!

    (Asking for a friend!)
     
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    IanSuth

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    Sorry guys, but actually, you are both right. I fact you are both dead right!

    It's a case of everything happening at once! Imagine the world's real economy in physical goods is a huge complex and intertwining set of streams of traffic. In days gone by, those streams moved slowly and most movements were local. Bricks were fired in large kilns and stored in huge piles on-site and brought to a housing project by horse and cart and later by lorries. Food was seasonal and local and in N.Europe, it was food that could be stored over Winter. Payment was in commodity or representative currency, i.e. money made from or backed by gold and silver.

    But then we started borrowing and moving goods further and faster - so we got wealthier in real terms. We had trains and boats, followed by trucks. Then we got really fast with fiat currencies and we borrowed even more - even governments and banks borrowed. We kept the storage of goods and commodities down to a minimum.

    Then along came all kinds of innovations like the just-in-time movement of just about every damn thing we used. The Internet meant that we could compare every outlet and supplier and we could offer our goods across Planet Earth.

    The streams of those goods-traffic were moving at break-neck speeds. But so too were the mounds of debt! Banks were no longer crusty old buildings with vaults of cash, deeds and gold - they were now virtual. Trading floors were now rooms full of screens, manned by people with the letters DM or DMS after their names. Money moved in milliseconds and credit agreements between banks lasted hours or even just minutes.

    Then it happened! BANG! One of the streams broke down. It had been wobbly and suffering jams and back-ups since January 2007 and monetary economists had warned that it was over-heating since about 2005. But in September 2007, newly appointed risk manager John Breit at investment bank Merrill Lynch filed a report that just one derivative of a derivative of a debt bundle was close to worthless.

    This news reached the desk of CEO Stan O'Neal and Breit was called for. He had to explain what it was - a synthetic collateralized debt obligation squared. A side-bet using borrowed money on a copy of a bundle of debt - a derivative of a derivative.
    "How bad is it?"
    "Six billion, but probably a whole lot more. We've got dozens of CDOs in the pipeline."

    Breit had just informed one of the most powerful men on Wall Street that the party was over.

    The rest, as they say in cheesy documentaries, is history.

    Governments and central banks had to step in. They reached back in history to 1905 and to the teachings of an obscure German economist called Georg Friederich Knapp and 'Chartalism' theories of steering an economy by altering the money supply. This was taken up by a movement called Modern Monetary Theory and their advocacy of a quantitative money supply.

    You can create money (quantitative easing) to boost the economy in depressed times and destroy money (quantitative tightening) to prevent it from overheating in boom times - and tightening also helps to steady the purchasing power of money and prevent inflation.

    Thus was born a wave of quantitative easing around the world known as QE. And by the skin of their teeth, it sort of worked.

    But then, just as Napoleon predicted, the world trembled - China awoke. And China got the MMT bug along with everyone else! And nobody wanted to tighten - we can print our way to prosperity, right?

    And along came the C19 bug. Lockdown. Streams of goods slowed right down and some streams stopped flowing completely. QE2, QE3 and then what some have called QE-Buzz Lightyear ("To infinity and beyond!") was born.

    With C19 came the need to keep whole economies afloat by direct means. Pay people and companies directly and another child was born - Helicopter Money! BBL, Stimmies, furlough payments, grants - trillions were created and fed directly into economies everywhere.

    So here we are with a whole new set of problems -

    Problem 1 - Everywhere we look, there are debt bubbles and they are huge beyond imagining. Government debt, private debt - more debt than anybody can ever repay. Debt that is given another name to hide the mountains of debt. Debt that must default, either by wild inflation or directly through bankrupcies.

    Problem 2 - Our old friend inflation. First came asset price inflation - houses, then shares, then came the shortages and means of production inflated, followed by consumer durables such as cars. Now food prices and vital commodities are affected. Government statisticians were ordered to hide the inflation by altering the types of goods they survey - but people ain't stupid. You can't expect shoppers to pay 40% more for cane sugar and 34% more for petrol and tell them that inflation is now just 4.2% with a straight face - and expect anyone to believe you!

    Problem 3 - The Roach Motel problem! The roaches check-in, but they don't check-out. Central banks cannot raise interest rates significantly, to stem inflation, as that would cause an avalanche of credit defaults. They can't leave things as they are, as that could cause inflation to accelerate. And they can't tighten as that will bring the economy to a grinding halt of stagnation.

    Problem 4 - Climate change. It will cost us huge resources to adapt to a warmer climate. Yes, the world is getting warmer and do not expect any government to actually do anything concrete about reducing CO2 - they have elections to win (or in China, a teetering economy and billions of people to placate). And with climate change, come weather events that will cause more shortages - you can't plough a water-logged field, you can't harvest wheat in the rain - and you can't do anything if you are flooded out!

    Problem 5 - Commodity shortages are everywhere. We are going green about 50 years too late! So now we are panicking. Oil companies were not allowed to drill for new wells, so that is in short supply. Gas - the same. And now all those electric cars need gold, silver, platinum and vast amounts of copper and other basic materials. But the big users and traders in those things have been manipulating the prices down, so nearly all commodities were under-priced - and because they were under-priced, new mines were not dug. So now their prices are about to explode, thereby making everything so much worse!


    They and the CEB and the Fed cannot raise interest rates and they know it! What they are doing is TALKING about raising rates and reducing QE (that's 'tapering' in Wall Street jargon).

    If there is any raise at all, it will be nominal and well below inflation. See the Roach Motel problem!

    So, anybody got any bloody ideas?

    Anyone?

    Please!

    (Asking for a friend!)

    No solution but an evidence of your 1 & 3

    in 1990/1 the govt stopped raising student grants and brought in student loans, initially to replace the annual rise in grant and with repayment interest tied to inflation - that was my 2nd yr at Uni and i ended up with a £400 loan repaid at about £8 a month when i was working

    My half brother went to uni in about 2000, he had to also cover £1k a yr in tuition fees and the repayment interest had become commercial. Despite earning 6 figures as the partner of a big 4 accountants he has only just paid it back as it was high £20k's by the time he left uni and interest racked up

    My daughter is at uni now - in London the tuition plus maintenance loans are £21,632 PER YEAR, that means by the time a student finishes a course they will owe over £80k with interest, the chances of that being paid back within 25 yrs are negligible for the majority of students (avg grad salary is £24k and lots of females will take time out for children and or part time work so hit the 25 year cut off before repayment) and yet the gov still keeps listing those loans as an asset of the government - if they raise interest rates they will just increase the debt without increasing repayments - and as the public sector is still a large employer of graduates (all those Police and Health service staff who now have to have a degree) they will also just raise their own pay inflation
     
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    gpietersz

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    From where ?

    They do not borrow the money, they create it.

    If a bank lends someone £10k and the money goes into an account with them then their deposits have also risen by £10k to balance it. This is not widely appreciated.

    If a bank lends someone 10k and it goes into another banks account there is more money in the banking system through a similar mechanism. This is textbook stuff. https://moneyterms.co.uk/money-multiplier/

    Many countries require banks do deposit a small percentage of their deposits with the central bank to limit this process. The UK is one of those that does not.
     
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    Justin Smith

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    Jun 6, 2012
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    It puzzles me why the BoE is going to raise interest rates to combat inflation.

    This of course, is the classic response to an overheating economy - one where there is too much money chasing too few goods. The theory being that if you take money out of the economy you will suppress demand, prices will come down and the economy will cool.

    This approach might work if it's just the UK, but what about when the main contributors to inflation are global problems - oil and gas prices, supply chain issues ? Suppressing demand in the UK won't make a jot of difference to global prices and problems. Suppressing global demand, (eg. oil prices at the height of the pandemic), will.

    The other argument is that raising interest rates strengthens the pound and makes imports cheaper but it's unclear how importing more manufactured goods will aid our economy.

    It just seems like raising interest rates to cure inflation is akin to bleeding the patient to make him better and could lead to 'stagflation' (economic stagnation plus inflation).

    I'm sure the brains at the BoE have answers to all this but I haven't seen them, nor does Googling the issue produce a satisfactory response.

    Anyone here know?

    If borrowing money for a purchase is more expensive people, will be less likely to borrow money and make that purchase.
    Similarly, if the savings rates are higher they'd be more likely to save that money.
    Lastly, many people have a mortgage or other loans, and if they're paying more out on those loans they've got less money to spend = less demand.
     
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    Justin Smith

    Free Member
    Jun 6, 2012
    2,744
    398
    Sheffield
    They do not borrow the money, they create it.
    If a bank lends someone £10k and the money goes into an account with them then their deposits have also risen by £10k to balance it. This is not widely appreciated.
    If a bank lends someone 10k and it goes into another banks account there is more money in the banking system through a similar mechanism. This is textbook stuff. https://moneyterms.co.uk/money-multiplier/
    Many countries require banks do deposit a small percentage of their deposits with the central bank to limit this process. The UK is one of those that does not.

    Perhaps they should.
    My Dad used to lecture in Accountancy, I'm sure he told me that banks do need deposits to lend money, but they can lend multiples of that money.
    Are you saying that used to be the case and now it isn't ? If that is so it explains a lot as to why so many banks give FA interest on their savings accounts.
    But, on the other hand, if banks (and, one assumes building societies) do not need deposits in order to make loans, why do some offer relatively good savings rates ? What's in it for them ?
     
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