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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #202
I both used quotation marks AND qualified it with saying "by government figures". Both of which were intended to show that it was not an opinion held by me.
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UCaN
- Original Poster
- #203
I must admit I haven't read every post on this thread however I find it a very interesting one and felt like adding my tuppence worth.
While we are currently nowhere near the stage of employing anyone, I am the kind of person who likes to at least consider all aspects of a business before beginning one.
We have put a lot of thought into how we would go about employing and what we would look for and I am in two minds over the idea of outsourcing (thankfully that decision is made for me as there isn't really any option to outsource)
I can fully understand why businesses are turning more and more to outsourcing staff given the state of available employment within the UK but our business is nowhere near old enough for me to forget what it is like for joe bloggs who really wants a job.
I have worked very hard all my life to get where I am now - and I have very little to show for it (our business is far too early on to have anything to show for it yet as haven't even been trading for a month yet). I rent my house as I cant get a mortgage and have to feed our family on what little we bring in from wages.
It is pathetic that this country is in a state where those who have never worked a day in their lives are far better off than those who have always had a decent work ethic. Add to that the convoluted laws in reltation to employment and you are left with a situation where individuals don't want to work and businesses don't want to employ them.
For a lot of businesses it is simply not profitable to employ staff in the UK - as mentioned earlier the cost of employing someone in the UK is not equal to what they take home in their paypacket and a lot of the time this cost is far too much for a SME to make UK employment viable
For the individuals themselves it is my experience that the benefits system is a huge hinderance to employment. I know someone who has not worked for nearly ten years who gets their housing paid, council tax paid, school uniform grants, school meal grants and still has a higher disposable income than most basic workers do. Is it any wonder that she turns around and says she has absolutley no intention of looking for a job?
As far as I am concerned it isnt businesses outsourcing that is causing the problem - it's the state the country is in.
Sorry for the rant
While we are currently nowhere near the stage of employing anyone, I am the kind of person who likes to at least consider all aspects of a business before beginning one.
We have put a lot of thought into how we would go about employing and what we would look for and I am in two minds over the idea of outsourcing (thankfully that decision is made for me as there isn't really any option to outsource)
I can fully understand why businesses are turning more and more to outsourcing staff given the state of available employment within the UK but our business is nowhere near old enough for me to forget what it is like for joe bloggs who really wants a job.
I have worked very hard all my life to get where I am now - and I have very little to show for it (our business is far too early on to have anything to show for it yet as haven't even been trading for a month yet). I rent my house as I cant get a mortgage and have to feed our family on what little we bring in from wages.
It is pathetic that this country is in a state where those who have never worked a day in their lives are far better off than those who have always had a decent work ethic. Add to that the convoluted laws in reltation to employment and you are left with a situation where individuals don't want to work and businesses don't want to employ them.
For a lot of businesses it is simply not profitable to employ staff in the UK - as mentioned earlier the cost of employing someone in the UK is not equal to what they take home in their paypacket and a lot of the time this cost is far too much for a SME to make UK employment viable
For the individuals themselves it is my experience that the benefits system is a huge hinderance to employment. I know someone who has not worked for nearly ten years who gets their housing paid, council tax paid, school uniform grants, school meal grants and still has a higher disposable income than most basic workers do. Is it any wonder that she turns around and says she has absolutley no intention of looking for a job?
As far as I am concerned it isnt businesses outsourcing that is causing the problem - it's the state the country is in.
Sorry for the rant
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UCaN
- Original Poster
- #205
That is a crazy, sweeping statement that simple logic dictates cannot be true. Do you honestly believe this?
Yes
Oh yes, that old "I know someone" chestnut again.
.
old chestnut or not, doesn't change the fact that this person who has £300 a week disposable income hasn't worked for nearly ten years, has no rent to pay and only pays sewage and water rates on council tax. This person lives round the corner from us and we work hard with no help to have possibly 50 a week disposable income after all bills are paid.
I fully agree that Logic dictates this shouldn't be the case but unfortunately that is the mess that employment is in. Would you want to work for £50 after rent, childcare, gas and electric and council tax are paid when you could sit on your rear end all day and get £300 for nothing other than having two children of primary school age?
Employing in the UK isn't cost effective for employers and working in the UK isn't cost effective for the employees.
It's crazy but that is how it is
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fairestcape
- Original Poster
- #206
We have been using both UK and "off-shore" freelancers for many years. Our selection criteria involve:-
Skills needed?
Cost / Budget available?
Is their physical presence needed, or can we work remotely?
We have had people who are extremely reliable and cost-effective, and people who have been a disaster - on both fronts (local and foreign).
You have to be very careful when hiring I.T. and programming skills. On some of our bigger projects we get the groundwork (initial PHP writing) done overseas, then have it checked by local experts.
You would be surprised at the poor quality we have had out of Asian developers (Phillippines in particular, so be CAREFUL). The best quality is coming out of Eastern Europe and Russia (Moscow).
Skills needed?
Cost / Budget available?
Is their physical presence needed, or can we work remotely?
We have had people who are extremely reliable and cost-effective, and people who have been a disaster - on both fronts (local and foreign).
You have to be very careful when hiring I.T. and programming skills. On some of our bigger projects we get the groundwork (initial PHP writing) done overseas, then have it checked by local experts.
You would be surprised at the poor quality we have had out of Asian developers (Phillippines in particular, so be CAREFUL). The best quality is coming out of Eastern Europe and Russia (Moscow).
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UCaN
- Original Poster
- #208
Not really - my second post was in response to bdw to explain the points raised by them.
There are people out there who honestly rely on benefits and in these cases the system is a good thing.
I wouldn't call benefits scroungers scum - In the whole it is the system I have a problem with for allowing these situations to arise. I have absolutely no doubt some people are using the system fraudulently (spelling?) and these people I do have issue with. After all it's you and me who are paying for there lifestyle.
It's more the government I was having a pop at than anything else
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UCaN
- Original Poster
- #211
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree. However, my views are based on personal experience and a great deal of knowledge regarding how the benefit system operates in this country, particularly as part of my current employ involves helping people understand and claim said benefits.
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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #212
For perspective on 'poverty', was watching "Toughest place to be..." in the Philipines,
The two families living in a single house.
The house is 6' square. They have divided it in to two stories for more space, but you can't stand up in either.
There are 13 people living in this 'house'.
"A third of people in the philipines live on less than 80p per day."
People go through bins to find old food, which is then recooked and sold on again, called 'pag pag'.
The person who cooks the 'pag pag' who makes very little money has been evicted from their house and now lives next to an open sewer with her badly ill husband.
THIS is real poverty to my mind.
With little chance for most of improving their lot.
Certainly doesn't put me off helping their local economy in return for good quality and good value work.
The two families living in a single house.
The house is 6' square. They have divided it in to two stories for more space, but you can't stand up in either.
There are 13 people living in this 'house'.
"A third of people in the philipines live on less than 80p per day."
People go through bins to find old food, which is then recooked and sold on again, called 'pag pag'.
The person who cooks the 'pag pag' who makes very little money has been evicted from their house and now lives next to an open sewer with her badly ill husband.
THIS is real poverty to my mind.
With little chance for most of improving their lot.
Certainly doesn't put me off helping their local economy in return for good quality and good value work.
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #213
What you said was this.
That is an unqualified statement that clearly cannot be true. If it were then no one would be working in the UK. In general employers will not employ people unless it is cost effective. That can be taken as a given.
We need to keep things in perspective and not makes statements that we know to be wrong to try back up our stance.
.
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Quote:
Employing in the UK isn't cost effective for employers and working in the UK isn't cost effective for the employees.
Well to be fair the first bit is absolutely correct. And I'm beginning to wonder if the second bit isn't too...
When you think of the amount of people getting tax credits and still not being able to pay their bills, and who would dearly love to be able to afford to work one full-time/one part-time instead of two full-time jobs, you begin to get an idea that the whole thing is not working for anyone.
Employing in the UK isn't cost effective for employers and working in the UK isn't cost effective for the employees.
Well to be fair the first bit is absolutely correct. And I'm beginning to wonder if the second bit isn't too...
When you think of the amount of people getting tax credits and still not being able to pay their bills, and who would dearly love to be able to afford to work one full-time/one part-time instead of two full-time jobs, you begin to get an idea that the whole thing is not working for anyone.
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With respect, this is another unqualified statement.
There are about 20 million people in employment in the UK. How is that not working?
But they are still pretty unhappy
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/happiness_formula/4771908.stm
Add in the 50% of mothers who said they didn't want to go back to work and had to. And all the people who are signed off work with stress (1/2 a million in 2007/08). It's not a very happy workforce is it?
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #220
Stress is not an imaginary illness and it is crass of you to suggest this.
http://www.hazards.org/suicide/cryingshame.htm
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JohnnyCash
- Original Poster
- #221
Most of them will be imaginary. Stress is an excuse for laziness for most...
Do you really think half a million people are genuinely suffering "stress" to the level they can't do their job???
There is a massive difference between a medical illness, and not liking your job or your colleagues - too many people don't understand that. Working for 8 hours doing something you don't like is not stressful - its just boring.
Do you really think half a million people are genuinely suffering "stress" to the level they can't do their job???
There is a massive difference between a medical illness, and not liking your job or your colleagues - too many people don't understand that. Working for 8 hours doing something you don't like is not stressful - its just boring.
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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #222
I'm sure in a lot of cases people ARE stressed by working a boring job.
But, I'd say in 99% of cases that if the people 'self medicated' - dealt with the issues themselves, rather than just taking time off (which often seems to make it worse when they do go back to work) then they'd be fine.
I'd also be willing to bet that well over 50% of the rest of the worlds population would absolutely love to have their job, including their already generally 'stressful' lives these other people have.
I think it was this thread I mentioned it on, but that "Toughest place to be a..." series on the BBC was an excellent example of very real 'stress' that many people live with daily.
But, I'd say in 99% of cases that if the people 'self medicated' - dealt with the issues themselves, rather than just taking time off (which often seems to make it worse when they do go back to work) then they'd be fine.
I'd also be willing to bet that well over 50% of the rest of the worlds population would absolutely love to have their job, including their already generally 'stressful' lives these other people have.
I think it was this thread I mentioned it on, but that "Toughest place to be a..." series on the BBC was an excellent example of very real 'stress' that many people live with daily.
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I am sure there are people who suffer from work related stress; hard for anyone of us to say other wise, as we are all different in our approach to how we handle or do not handle things.
To me; stress must be not knowing where the next meal is coming from, or how long you will have a roof over your head.
Poppy xx
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JohnnyCash
- Original Poster
- #225
I don't have the time to go check numbers other users post... it was posted by someone else so unless someone else has clear proof that its not correct I'll just assume they are right.
Regardless of the actual number, its a fair bet that a high percentage of them are the usual jokers playing the system to their own advantage.
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Please do not refer to all out of work people as 'scummy'; I know lots of good honest hard working people, who are out of work because they got made redundent, and cannot find another job.
Teachers
Shop staff
Bus driver; to name but a few, these are not scummy people, and do not deserve insults because this bloody country is in a mess.
Their only crime, was they became surplus to requirement, no money in the kitty to pay them, and in some cases their age, being over 50, seems to mean you are on the scrap heap, in terms of getting another well paid job
POPPY XX
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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #229
This was posted on another forum:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12498529
Those that have seen the reality of many long term dole people will know this is far from an uncommon attitude.
And, to some degree, who can blame them if they can live a happy life and are convinced they're not affecting others?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12498529
Those that have seen the reality of many long term dole people will know this is far from an uncommon attitude.
And, to some degree, who can blame them if they can live a happy life and are convinced they're not affecting others?
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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #233
>>All estimates are based on reviews of random samples drawn from the benefit caseloads.<<
>>The estimates do not encompass all fraud and error. This is because fraud is, by its nature, a covert activity, complex official error can be difficult to identify and some suspicions of fraud on the sample cases cannot be proven. For example, unreported earnings in the informal economy will be much harder to detect than those in the formal economy.<<
I do not think this report supports your statement. Certainly not for 'good researched' - as my experience has seen many, many people fraudulently claim various things and "get away with it".
(My quick scan through it didn't find your quote of less than 1% of people, with most figures financial, but sure I could have easily missed it.)
>>The estimates do not encompass all fraud and error. This is because fraud is, by its nature, a covert activity, complex official error can be difficult to identify and some suspicions of fraud on the sample cases cannot be proven. For example, unreported earnings in the informal economy will be much harder to detect than those in the formal economy.<<
I do not think this report supports your statement. Certainly not for 'good researched' - as my experience has seen many, many people fraudulently claim various things and "get away with it".
(My quick scan through it didn't find your quote of less than 1% of people, with most figures financial, but sure I could have easily missed it.)
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Having the benefit of several GP-signed Fit Notes, I believe stress is genuine in a case I'm currently considering. I don't consider it it "laziness" for a moment, and until either the the employer or I are able to diagnose medical conditions better than a GP, I will rely on the information provided by the GP.
Whether the balance of the half a million people you mention are genuinely suffering or not, I have no opinion on, but for this person, I have no reason to doubt so unless someone can show it is only laziness, I will work on the basis it's stress.
Any thoughts on how to handle cases like this for the future? How to make a judgment that it is only "laziness" and the doctor hasn't assessed the patient properly? (This case won't be influenced by any comments, but interested to hear for future reference - perhaps policies will be amended.)
Karl Limpert
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bdw
- Original Poster
- #237
Honestly, I'm starting to think you're just a troll with these stances you're taking. Either that or you're not right in the head...
Isn't this taking money you're not entitled to?
.
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gmoto
- Original Poster
- #238
Odd, just what I thought about you when you claimed my current lifestyle living in cheap shared accommodation and driving a cheap car was 'third world'.
But yes, the many people that are filling the internet with complete junk I do find irksome. It's considerably harder to find real information on the internet on this basis and such sites always make me think 'scam' for the links they are using. Acai pills, anyone?
But yes, the many people that are filling the internet with complete junk I do find irksome. It's considerably harder to find real information on the internet on this basis and such sites always make me think 'scam' for the links they are using. Acai pills, anyone?
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Deleted member 59730
- Original Poster
- #239
I personally know of 3 people who have had long periods off because of stress. However, one of those works in the NHS and was the subject of bullying in mid December. She has been off work due to stress since then but really wants to get back to work asap. She would have gone back to work before Christmas if the bully had only apologised. The delay in her going back to work is now down to two people, an area manager and a trade union official, not being available for a meeting since January 5th.
Apparently this is normal for the NHS.
I don't blame workers, I blame bad management.
Apparently this is normal for the NHS.
I don't blame workers, I blame bad management.
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