Employing in Philippines - I'll never hire in UK again.

Discussion in 'General Business Forum' started by JohnnyCash, Feb 3, 2011.

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  1. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

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    Has anyone else given up employing in the UK?

    We run a business which involves lots of different websites, so we don't require a physical presence anywhere for it.

    Hiring in the UK brings far too many problems, with workers taking <<<profanity removed by mod>>> at every opportunity. You can get people abroad for significantly less money, and in general their work ethic is a lot better. Combine that with significantly lower costs and its a win win (for the employer, not the UK tax man or the UK as a whole...)

    Employees here have just gone too far. From recent threads here alone, we've got this guy who was sacked for theft, but now preparing a discrimination case because he's not married...

    Then we've got this chap who bad mouthed his boss to anyone who would listen, gets fired... and out comes the "discrimination" card as he's apparently a homosexual. It seems if you're gay, non-white, disabled or of a religious minority you're untouchable in the work place, regardless of your conduct. God help you if you have a one legged gay black Muslim working for you...

    I could pick out dozens of threads where the employer is being shafted here but thats not really the aim of this thread... discussing outsourcing out of the UK completely is.

    We already outsource extensively, but with most people reporting directly to me or my business partner. A lot of these people are hired on a per job basis.

    We're now going to go one step further and hire a full group of people working from the Philippines. They won't be working from an office, they will all be home based but working full time for us.

    From a job advert placed on onlinejobs.ph yesterday afternoon (note - you need to pay $50 to sign up there), we have 125 applications already.

    We are going to hire one higher end employee with a fair amount of experience, and leave them in charge of 5 or 6 other employees. So we will only interact directly with one of them and let them delegate everything else.

    One really good employee will cost 20-30k php a month, with the other 5 costing between 10-15k each. So that leaves us paying 70-105k a month, which is £1000 - £1500 total, for 6 employees. All of these people will be educated to a degree level. Most of them will have better English than a typical school leaver in the UK. All of them will have a better work ethic than someone the job centre could give me.

    I can only see more and more internet based jobs going that way. Give the employers all the hassle, expense and risk and combine it with uneducated lazy people who think the world owes them a living and you'll only see more and more go offshore...

    Has anyone else successfully went in this direction? Or tried it and switched back?

    Do you think its "right" to do this? I don't feel I owe the UK, the taxman or the general public anything, so I'll do whats right for me alone. If its a choice between hiring 6 Brits or buying a Ferrari... well I hope those people know where the nearest benefits office is...
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
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  2. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

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    What you highlight is a very fast growing trend that is not being picked up by those in power.

    I have to have UK employees because we deliver a hands on service face to face but I also have lots of other work that can be done by anyone anywhere and my experience to date is good.

    The more connected the world becomes the faster this trend will develop. It is full of challenges of UKPLC and if we do not rise to the opportunities that come with it the UK is going to get trashed.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
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  3. JamesHall174

    JamesHall174 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    314 61
    It's a tricky one as to whether or not it is right for the UK, unfortunately sometimes you have to do what is right for you.

    I am in the process of setting up a trial for some in the philipines and so far I am impressed but only time will tell.

    The thing that led me to it was not just the cost but all the things you mentioned around difficult, lazy employee's.

    I genuinely fear for the future of this country sometimes but hopefully at some point I will get my business to the point where I can run it from a villa in the Alpujarras mountains!!!

    I have sent you a PM about something you might be interested in.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JamesHall174 Member since: Jan 5, 2011
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  4. Mpg

    Mpg UKBF Ace Free Member

    1,476 276
    I think my couriers would struggle with the extra driving. But I do see your point.

    However. I'm sure I've seen an article regarding a change to the employment laws for small business. Although it will probably only be relevent to one man bands with no staff:mad:
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: Mpg Member since: Aug 18, 2009
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  5. Employment Law Clinic

    Employment Law Clinic UKBF Big Shot Full Member - Verified Business

    3,342 1,572
    Mpg,

    As far as employment law is concerned, there's not much that will help small businesses on the horizon. You may be referring to an article that mentioned the changes to unfair dismissal, requiring two year's service in the future, but the proposed changes are actually a lot more extensive & are more than balanced by a lot of potential costs to small businesses. Clare (CCP) mentioned it in a thread yesterday.



    Karl Limpert
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: Employment Law Clinic Member since: Aug 10, 2009
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  6. letterboxunlimited

    letterboxunlimited UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    199 45
    What are you using to manage all these people? I currently use basecamp etc along with odesk and the other usual suspects.

    Have you found any quality issues taking people directly from the jobs board?
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: letterboxunlimited Member since: Oct 7, 2009
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  7. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

    1,427 480
    I'm not going to be dealing with them directly, I am only going to be speaking with the one person in charge.

    Right now I'm not using any software at all to handle management of employees - spreadsheets and notepad files. Not the best method I know, but it works. We mostly plan out what needs to happen on each website for the full month ahead, and just let people get on with it.

    I'm having my coder create an employee logging system for our biggest shopping comparison site, which will let me see exactly how many deals each person adds per day, and what timeframe through each day they are doing it on (so I can see if they vanish for an hour etc)
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
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  8. letterboxunlimited

    letterboxunlimited UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    199 45
    OK, Im IN

    Will give it a try - v - odesk and post my results
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: letterboxunlimited Member since: Oct 7, 2009
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  9. thetime22

    thetime22 UKBF Enthusiast Full Member

    894 114
    What about hiring Aussies and Kiwis?
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: thetime22 Member since: Dec 7, 2010
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  10. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

    1,427 480
    Too expensive.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
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  11. thetime22

    thetime22 UKBF Enthusiast Full Member

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    Well it's a sad day in this country when it's a better idea to hire someone from the Philippines. No disrespect the them but if this trend continues the unemployment levels are going to raise through the roof. Isn't it a legal hell hole hiring someone outside the EU?
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: thetime22 Member since: Dec 7, 2010
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  12. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

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    No, its really simple. They are working from their own homes on their own equipment etc. We just have them send us an invoice and pay it with Paypal.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
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  13. RadiusBPO

    RadiusBPO UKBF Ace Free Member

    1,393 381
    I do the same and at some points have up to 15 people working full time all on a freelance basis.

    Common misconceptions is they don't speak English, they don't work GMT, they don't know what they are doing but in reality they do actually have better English than me, work whenever required and have IT degrees so at least have some problem solving skills.

    Problem with Freelancers is they sometimes go to another job or they will be working 20 hours per day for you, me, him and her so end up exhausted and ineffective and if your team lives in small towns / villages and sometimes cities their power and internet isn't 100% reliable. My main guy had a lot of issues last monsoon season.


    Why don't I hire in the UK? Cost. I'm still in start up phase, my main passive income sites aren't ranking yet and I don't have a large client base so to remain cost effective and to deliver what I promise I need to outsource to PH.

    Why PH and not India? PH culture is more similar to here. My experience with outsourcing to Indian is that the people I worked with would never say No, or tell me they don't understand what I'm talking about. This might be because they have a very can do culture but it didn't work for me. PH guys will generally tell me to repeat what I said because I don't make sense 1/2 the time.


    What about the loss of jobs and tax revenues to the UK? Big business has been doing this forever, now with the internet use rising in developing nations smaller business can leverage their currency against theirs. I also like to think of myself as a globalist helping increase the average living standard across the world ;)

    Future plans? I've had some of my team scouting locations for offices, costs or internet and electricity and will be this year opening an office their to bring everything inhouse, increase reliability and for quality assurance. Hopefully help staff retention rates as well. As most of PH offices are used at night for call centers for the USA day time office rent is very small and they sometimes already have the equipment so it will be easy to do this. After research Cebu will likely be the location.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: RadiusBPO Member since: Jun 11, 2010
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  14. akirk

    akirk UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    2,224 576
    on paper -this does look a good way forward, and where a business can take a hands-off management approach then it can work...

    however, management of staff abroad can give a lot of issues...

    I also think that increasingly we will see customers wanting to deal with UK companies - see it already, they can come and talk to you / speak to the guys doing the work / etc...

    and in fact there are a lot of hard working honest brits...

    perhaps more skills are needed in interviewing / applicant selecting...?

    Alasdair
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: akirk Member since: Jul 1, 2010
    #14
  15. DesignerNick

    DesignerNick UKBF Big Shot Full Member

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    I have used PH VA's in the past and found them really helpful and it got to the point where it was a bit of a luxury as I didn't have that much for them to do.

    They did speak / type great English and were honest and loyal and I think if I was in a position for them to be a lot more affective other than just link building then I would definitely use one again.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: DesignerNick Member since: Apr 22, 2009
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  16. telemax

    telemax UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    3,295 732
    One of my clients in Canada who are a VFX/special effects/design studio are always coming up against competition from India and the far east and winning hands down, despite being 10 times the cost. It comes down to quality in that particular business.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: telemax Member since: Feb 14, 2006
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  17. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

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    For those that are considering doing this in a serious way. ie several full time employees I recommend some travel will be worth the investment and time.

    Of course do your research on the web but then get on a plane and visit a few locations and speak to people face to face. Visit work units and see the technology that is available or not, experience the broadband etc

    Most of all meet and build a relationship with those who are going to work for you.

    If you invest in a office location go and work with the team for a good period of time at the start.

    Also be aware that their is huge resources of university educated multi lingual talent with no work much closer to the UK than Asia. 3 hrs flight for less than £100 return and you are in Morocco. ;)
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
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  18. Podge

    Podge UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you.
    Yes in the short term it looks like it makes perfect sense but by saving money now (and that's what you're doing it for no matter what you say to the contrary) you are storing up trouble for the future, that is of course if you don't mind following your work out of the country.
    For every job that get's outsourced that's another one added to the dole queue, how many until the benefit bill becomes to big and taxes have to be raised to supprt it ?
    Take you as an example 6 for the price of one, thats 6 people you have taken out of the economy as well as adding £62.5k to the anual benefit bill, how long do you think that can be sustained ?
    We will never again have a sizeable industrial workforce, we have turned into a nation of predominantly service providers with employers unwilling to provide us with employment, How is that sustainable ?
    And let us once and for all blow this myth out of the water that all british employees are lazy exploitative scum. There are as many tribunal cases win as fail so it's no good just blaming the employee you are both as bad as each other, and I mean collective employers and not you personaly.
    I'm not blind to your view but there was a time when most people were happy to make a living, now, it seems for a lot of people that's not quite enough.
    Yes, for your business what you are doing makes sound economic sense and is good business practice and I'm not sure if I were in your position I wouldn't do exactly the same thing, however with this happening I don't think the long term future looks good for the country as a whole.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: Podge Member since: Jan 13, 2011
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  19. JohnnyCash

    JohnnyCash Guest

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    Sure, cost is the primary reason I'm doing it.

    I have already moved out of the UK and the companies will be following me, so purely from a selfish point of view I could not care less about unemployment, UK tax or £62k more on the benefits bill. Not me that has to pick up the tab...

    Selfish I know - I just don't care.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: JohnnyCash Member since: Dec 8, 2010
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  20. adventurelife

    adventurelife UKBF Ace Full Member

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    The future can be as you describe or it can be what we make it. You like the rest of us do not have a choice the world has decided to go down the globalization route and has put in the infrastructure to do so.

    To me that gives two options

    Complain about it and get squeezed or fully understand it and work with the opportunities it creates which are many.

    I know for 100% sure other developing countries are running and running fast so the longer we stand still the more likely we will get destroyed.

    Also it is not straight forward as you mention. Lest take the 6 jobs removed from the country what if those 6 jobs create work that is then down by employees in this country, what if those 6 employees are super productive and create lots of jobs in this country.

    It is not simple it is exceedingly complex what is happening and will get more so but the only way to get a handle on it is to get involved.
     
    Posted: Feb 3, 2011 By: adventurelife Member since: Dec 2, 2007
    #20
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