Brexit negotiations

Discussion in 'Time Out' started by Scott-Copywriter, Jun 19, 2017.

  1. Jeff FV

    Jeff FV UKBF Big Shot Staff Member

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    Perhaps I have been hoodwinked for my whole adult life.

    I was a boy when we joined the EEC (as it then was), but ever since I became “politically conscious” (I remember the ‘79 election - didn’t really know much about it, but that was probably the birth of my interest in current affairs and politics) I would say we (the U.K., through its Government) have had its own immigration and economic policies.

    The most obvious example of an immigration policy is May’s quotas (and “go home” vans) when Home Secretary.

    I am not even going to attempt to argue that we have had many, many economic policies over the last 45 years - surely that is self-evident.

    So, by your argument, because we have had immigration and economic policies set by the UK government, we must also have had sovereignty for the last 40+ years that we have been in the EU, thereby making the argument from leavers to “take back sovereignty” moot
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Jeff FV Member since: Jan 10, 2009
  2. KM-Tiger

    KM-Tiger UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    You omitted the word 'partial' in several places.

    The EU have not (yet) taken full control, so yes we can decide some things for ourselves.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: KM-Tiger Member since: Aug 10, 2003
  3. Jeff FV

    Jeff FV UKBF Big Shot Staff Member

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    I don’t think they* did (know there would be hits to the economy)

    Don’t underestimate the power of “the bus”

    Basically that said we were going to have an extra £350 million a week. A very powerful message, many* will have equated an extra £350 million a week with an economy that is doing well.

    * of course, my “they” and “many” does not include everyone, but I suspect that in such a tight vote, those that were swayed by the bus (whether they took it to mean the economy would be ok or not) were significant
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Jeff FV Member since: Jan 10, 2009
  4. Jeff FV

    Jeff FV UKBF Big Shot Staff Member

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    I cede the point that I should have included partial, although that part that we do have control over is pretty significant.

    On immigration, we (our governments of all hues) have chosen not to exert their full power over EU immigration.

    On the economy, I struggle to think of any economic policy of “ours” that have been stymied or thwarted by the EU. Possibly our involvement with the ERM?
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Jeff FV Member since: Jan 10, 2009
  5. Scott-Copywriter

    Scott-Copywriter UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    Not really.

    The point is that the UK voluntarily shares some decision making with its 27 neighbours in Europe, much like a county of the UK having some autonomous power and then sharing decision making with other counties (or to be specific, constituencies) for the UK as a whole. Except the UK has far greater autonomous decision making in the EU than a county does in the UK, of course.

    To dislike this democratic setup and vote to leave the EU, either because the country can't make all its own decisions unilaterally, or because people don't like having to share the decisions with other countries, is indeed the equivalent or a county seceding from the UK because it can't get its own way either.

    It comes off pretty poorly on the UK really. We speak about "Western values" and the importance of democracy and collaboration, but at the same time we throw in the towel and try to isolate ourselves because of "sovereignty".

    And just for the record, the West Midlands has a GVA of £55 billion which is of a similar size to the entire country of Kenya. It could probably cope on its own.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Scott-Copywriter Member since: May 10, 2006
  6. atmosbob

    atmosbob UKBF Ace Free Member

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    There is an active Cornwall Independence Party. They have 2 County Councillors who are among the most intelligent and sensible in the Council.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: atmosbob Member since: Oct 26, 2009
  7. Scott-Copywriter

    Scott-Copywriter UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    That's because the UK votes in favour of the vast, vast majority of European Parliament decisions. We're almost always on the winning side, and often lead the charge when it comes to many of these decisions.

    In other cases, the EU (i.e. the 27 economies surrounding us in Europe) have compromised to protect our interests, or we have been able to veto decisions in cases where they have not.

    One such example of the latter is the EU's attempts to push all euro-related financial services to be sold only by banks headquartered inside the Eurozone. We currently have a veto over that, which is mighty useful as London dominates the euro-denominated financial services market.

    Once we leave the EU though, we can wave bye bye to that veto, with the EU putting its own interests first at the expense of London and the UK. If they press on with that path, which they are fully entitled to do, it will be a hammer blow of epic proportions on the financial centre of London.

    And this is well before we even consider the impact of the loss of financial passporting rights, which creates a whole other series of problems and hindrances.

    It's fine though. Everyone knew all of this.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Scott-Copywriter Member since: May 10, 2006
  8. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Yes people surely took account of the financial impact of Brexit before voting. And either dismissed it or had other more relevant issues affecting the decision more.

    The UK will put its own interests first after Brexit and the EU will put their interests first. If the two clash - well we won't have any power will we?
    And how desperate for a trade deal will we be by the end of next year?

    Reading some of the comments on Hansard I'm not convinced even our own parliament understands what happens without a deal.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  9. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Do they achieve much in spite of those handicaps?
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  10. Scott-Copywriter

    Scott-Copywriter UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: Scott-Copywriter Member since: May 10, 2006
  11. dan19900

    dan19900 UKBF Regular Free Member

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    350 million pounds per week isn't anything compared to George Osborne saying he'd have to slash public spending and increase taxes to cover 30 billion pounds after the vote.
    Or Mark Carney warning that there may be a recession after the vote.
     
    Posted: Dec 28, 2018 By: dan19900 Member since: Mar 2, 2018
  12. KM-Tiger

    KM-Tiger UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    Well there are policies that we could have, but are denied by the EU.

    For instance, abolish VAT on energy and womens sanitary products. Neither are optional purchases, and thus taxation has a disproportionate impact on the less well off. I don't like that.
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: KM-Tiger Member since: Aug 10, 2003
  13. Jeff FV

    Jeff FV UKBF Big Shot Staff Member

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    Fully accept that - thank you for posting
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Jeff FV Member since: Jan 10, 2009
  14. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    I agree that is an issue. However it is also true that our government had the chance to exempt them some years ago, and chose not to do so.
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  15. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Plenty of other things are not optional purchases too. Where do you draw the line? And do you put income tax basic rate up by say an additional 5% to pay for the VAT you are wanting to stop?
    Or just cut government spending by a few tens of billions of pounds. NHS budget for example, spread the cuts fairly.
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  16. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Really?
    So parliament debated a motion to exempt those some years ago and government won a vote not to?
    Or EU offered us a chance to exempt some current stuff and government decided to exempt other stuff?
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  17. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    Every EU government had the right to choose which goods should be exempt and, possibly which goods could be lower rated. I think it was when there was a legal change in the basis VAT was organised. Some countries exempted sanitary products, some, like ours, chose not to. https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/exemptions_en
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
  18. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

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    Perhaps previous governments didn't want to cut their income or apply additional cuts to government services.

    How much tax a month are we talking for sanitary products? As much as a quid? Less? More?


    Quite a bit higher tax total for energy. What's the average energy total bill these days, bit over £100 a month?
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
  19. KM-Tiger

    KM-Tiger UKBF Legend Full Member - Verified Business

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    Plus there is the green nonsense. Effectively a tax on poor people to give money to rich people.

    Wicked.
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: KM-Tiger Member since: Aug 10, 2003
  20. Cobby

    Cobby UKBF Ace Free Member

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    What are the economic advantages? The office of Brexit Secretary has only ever been held by Brexit Extremists - how many other Brexit Extremists would it take to shift the EU27 from the red lines they put in place right at the beginning?

    (I'm using "Brexit Extremists", because by her behaviour if not her claimed vote in the EU ref., May is very much a Brexiter)
     
    Posted: Dec 29, 2018 By: Cobby Member since: Oct 28, 2009