I specifically said "outside the EU" and you quote a bunch of sources from inside the EU as a refutation. The world is not the EU, the EU is just one region and of diminishing importance.
My apologies, I completely missed you excluding the people most relevant to the discussion; i.e. those with whom we are currently trying to negotiate, and with whom we will have to negotiate from a position of weakness in the event of the UK crashing out with "No Deal". So which nations' opinions do you believe are more important?
And as much as Brexiteers love to minimise the EU's importance, the EU is (currently)
twenty eight regions, not
one, and is still the world's largest trading bloc (top trading partner to 80 countries) with the US in 2nd place (top trading partner to 20 countries).
Not irreversibly, with time limits, and NI needing to agree to extensions.
It's
way more complicated than that, involves consideration of the problems with the NI assembly, has more intricate consequences, and without any other assurances still leaves us in the position of abandoning the GFA and installing a hard border and reigniting the Troubles. Meanwhile NI lives with a border in the Irish Sea, a thing Boris Johnson (and many of his ministers) promised they would never, ever let happen, and NI companies suddenly bear a huge administrative burden.
Yes there are: independence and avoiding the risks of the European project of "ever close union". Not getting locked into policies set by treaty instead of elected governments.
Well, the present government acknowledges that the UK is sovereign, we are not required to partake in "ever closer union" (our membership specifically excludes us from it), and our EU membership is managed by democratically elected members of our government who have led the way on and got their way on 95% of voting motions in the EU (abstaining on 3% and losing 2%).
So the only thing in there is the claim about "independence" which doesn't really mean anything
tangible. We're a prospering, sovereign nation in a position of international power and influence and the "independence" you claim to be a benefit is pursuit of a goal that sees us suffer on every one of those points - we become less prosperous, less powerful, less influential and more isolated.
I'm sorry but Brexiteer sound-bites don't carry much weight in this discussion, and so we are left where we were before: still no tangible benefits to Brexit.
Europhiles and remainers have been wrong (or lying) time and time again. It was a disaster to fail to join the Euro, just voting to leave was going to cause economic disaster and mass unemployment, the EU was never going to give us a better deal or climb down from their demands. All based on the same delusions.
There are three obvious things to unpack here, and the responses are things we've covered in this thread like a dozen times already:
1. You are upset about "Europhiles and remainers lying".
2. Remain predicted disaster and catastrophe from the vote alone.
3. Remain prediction were "delusional".
1. I've yet to see a consistent movement or position based on deliberate or persistent dishonesty from the Remain side of this discussion. It is however the absolute bedrock of the Leave movement, and its leader (our current PM) seems unable to do
anything without lying about it first. Yet you seem wholly unconcerned with that.
2. What you say Remain predicted (WW3, disaster, catastrophe, etc.) was what Brexiteers said Remain predicted. This is not the same thing as what Remain actually predicted.
3. Most of the post-vote predictions were reasonably accurate (economic damage so far, drop in sterling, manufacturing sector problems, etc). In fact the most inaccurate predictions were provided by the Brexiter's poster-boy financial 'expert', Minford, and his work is frequently observed to
misunderstand the fundamental principles of international trade.
