Are you a Christian?

Why not flip the coin and ask what are so many of our laws based on disgust?

A landowner not allowed to protect his property?
They can within reason
Same sex marriages and adoptions?
What is wrong with that?
The murder of unborn children?
Why should not females be in control of thier bodies?
Horrendous animal cruelties?
We have secular laws to control this though I believe the bible said we could do whatever we liked.

Look at the state of this country. Children are our oppressors. We have adults in inner cities on a voluntary curfew because they feel intimidated to go out while children are out.

The breakdown of law and order has no relivance to religious belief.

If we did follow Gods laws, what a wonderful world this would be.

If we followed reasonable laws set by society regardless of religious belief the world would be a much better place.
 
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Your absolutely right because from memory he wasn't born until about fifty years after Jesus and would have been middle aged by the time he finished his "Antiquities" if not older.
The text is different in the Hebrew and Roman versions of his work which means one or the other has been tampered with.

First, it should be noted that Josephus was not writing dead history from the vantage point of some imperial library; he was writing of the events of his day.

He was an eyewitness of most of the events he chronicled.

His account is the more fascinating because he served actively during the Jewish-Roman war on both sides, beginning as a general of the Jewish forces in Galilee, and ending as an adviser to General Titus.

So close did his friendship with Titus and his father Vespasian become that Josephus later adopted their family name, Flavius, which is why he is known to us as Flavius Josephus, and not by his Jewish name, Joseph ben Matthias.

Born a few years after Jesus' death, in 37AD as he grew older Josephus became a keen observer of political trends.

He was of noble birth, a member of the religious sect of the Pharisees and had family connections with the more aristocratic sect of the Sadducees.

He tells us that at the age of 26 he was sent to Rome as part of a group to secure the release of certain Jewish priests, who had been sent in bonds to Caesar by the Roman procurator Felix on "small and trifling" charges.

This instance recalls to readers of the Bible the difficulty that the apostle Paul had with this same Felix, who kept him imprisoned for two years, hoping for a bribe. (Acts 24:27)

While in Rome, young Josephus formed a friendship with none other than the wife of Emperor Nero, the Empress Poppea, who intervened to free his friends.

When Josephus returned to Jerusalem, full of admiration for Roman culture and military power, he was aghast to find the Jewish nation more and more bent on war with the Romans.

It was during this period that Josephus was able to see with his own eyes the events that proved the truth of Jesus' notable prophecy against Jerusalem.

Jesus had foretold "great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people," and Josephus made note of the wrath of the Romans, who had originally been inclined to be lenient with the Jews, but had been infuriated by the unwillingness of the Jews to yield.-Luke 21:23.

When the city fell after a relatively short siege of four and a half months, the Roman soldiers killed until they were too tired to kill any more. "They slew those whom they overtook without mercy, and set fire to the houses whither the Jews had fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is, of such as died by the famine .*.*. they ran everyone through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood."

It is of interest to note that not only the ferocity, but the very brevity of the siege of Jerusalem had been predicted by Jesus when he said: "In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved." (Matt. 24:22)

During the siege, Josephus watched in numbing horror as the Jews pitched 600,000 bodies over the walls of the city, victims of the famine, disease and factional warfare in the city. At that rate, everyone in Jerusalem would have died in another five months!

Josephus tells us that the total of Jewish dead in the siege reached 1,100,000, and defends this figure by pointing out that the siege occurred when great multitudes of pilgrims were in Jerusalem for the Passover festival. Josephus' figure has been doubted since the Roman historian Tacitus gives a lower figure-600,000.

However, it should be remembered that Tacitus was not an eyewitness.

His writings are full of inaccuracies regarding Jewish history and customs, and he admits that his casualty statistics were received secondhand.

Josephus further defends his figure of 1,100,000 by pointing out that not long before the Roman invasion of Judea a count had been taken of the number of animals sacrificed during the Passover and it was found that 256,500 had been killed.

Since an average of 10 persons would eat the Passover meal from the same animal, Josephus concluded that as many as 2,500,000 persons could be found in Jerusalem for the Passover.

Josephus' credentials as an eyewitness historian are impressive.

Of course, he was not an eyewitness to events inside the city of Jerusalem during its siege, but he was able to procure the freedom of some 200 Jewish survivors after the fall of the city and he could have interviewed them.

During the siege there was also a steady stream of Jewish deserters, and Josephus was free to interview these as well. Additionally, he apparently had access to the diaries and commentaries of his patrons Vespasian and Titus, since he refers to these documents in his later writings.

But there is no reason to doubt the overall accuracy of Josephus' work. After all, it was written during the lifetime of all those involved in the events being chronicled.

Any serious inaccuracies would have been pounced upon by the author's many jealous detractors.
 
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One thing for certain however is that Jesus wasn't a Jew (Judean); he was a Galilean.
Not that this matters but what makes it so certain?

(Stockdam on the use of the word indoctrination) "So it is an emotive word if you consider it as described by Wikipedia. Maybe that's not what you meant."
Wikipedia's context had nothing to do with it. Why would you prefer Wikipedia's version to the dictionary definition? Why bring in another red herring?

Anyway indoctrination was most certainly what I meant. All the commonly practised religions are based on indoctrination and those who have been indoctrinated are not normally aware of this. I used the word advisedly and because I believe it to be a fact not because it is emotive. How much evidence of indoctrination do you need?

Here's an example. Catholics dress their children up in their little white first communion outfits and send them to their churches for a priest to do his first communion thing with them. They are not even of school age when this happens. What do you think is going on in their impressionable little minds when they are put through this? How daunting is it for them to be pushed into this big cold room in front of a guy dressed up in ghostly robes while people sing and chant in strange tongues?

What is that if it is not indoctrination? Children of that age are very impressionable - not capable of reasoning and the church knows this. If you hook them at that age and put the fear of god and hellfire into them you have a great chance of holding on to them for life.

This is the catholic church we are talking about here, not a weird little cult like the JWs. They have allegedly one billion adherents. What is that if not mass (sorry!) indoctrination?
 
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First, it should be noted that Josephus was not writing dead history from the vantage point of some imperial library; he was writing of the events of his day.

He was an eyewitness of most of the events he chronicled.

His account is the more fascinating because he served actively during the Jewish-Roman war on both sides, beginning as a general of the Jewish forces in Galilee, and ending as an adviser to General Titus.

So close did his friendship with Titus and his father Vespasian become that Josephus later adopted their family name, Flavius, which is why he is known to us as Flavius Josephus, and not by his Jewish name, Joseph ben Matthias.

Born a few years after Jesus’ death, in 37AD as he grew older Josephus became a keen observer of political trends.

He was of noble birth, a member of the religious sect of the Pharisees and had family connections with the more aristocratic sect of the Sadducees.

He tells us that at the age of 26 he was sent to Rome as part of a group to secure the release of certain Jewish priests, who had been sent in bonds to Caesar by the Roman procurator Felix on “small and trifling” charges.

This instance recalls to readers of the Bible the difficulty that the apostle Paul had with this same Felix, who kept him imprisoned for two years, hoping for a bribe. (Acts 24:27)

While in Rome, young Josephus formed a friendship with none other than the wife of Emperor Nero, the Empress Poppea, who intervened to free his friends.

When Josephus returned to Jerusalem, full of admiration for Roman culture and military power, he was aghast to find the Jewish nation more and more bent on war with the Romans.

It was during this period that Josephus was able to see with his own eyes the events that proved the truth of Jesus’ notable prophecy against Jerusalem.

Jesus had foretold “great necessity upon the land and wrath on this people,” and Josephus made note of the wrath of the Romans, who had originally been inclined to be lenient with the Jews, but had been infuriated by the unwillingness of the Jews to yield.—Luke 21:23.

When the city fell after a relatively short siege of four and a half months, the Roman soldiers killed until they were too tired to kill any more. “They slew those whom they overtook without mercy, and set fire to the houses whither the Jews had fled, and burnt every soul in them, and laid waste a great many of the rest; and when they were come to the houses to plunder them, they found in them entire families of dead men, and the upper rooms full of dead corpses, that is, of such as died by the famine .*.*. they ran everyone through whom they met with, and obstructed the very lanes with their dead bodies, and made the whole city run down with blood.”

It is of interest to note that not only the ferocity, but the very brevity of the siege of Jerusalem had been predicted by Jesus when he said: “In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved.” (Matt. 24:22)

During the siege, Josephus watched in numbing horror as the Jews pitched 600,000 bodies over the walls of the city, victims of the famine, disease and factional warfare in the city. At that rate, everyone in Jerusalem would have died in another five months!

Josephus tells us that the total of Jewish dead in the siege reached 1,100,000, and defends this figure by pointing out that the siege occurred when great multitudes of pilgrims were in Jerusalem for the Passover festival. Josephus’ figure has been doubted since the Roman historian Tacitus gives a lower figure—600,000.

However, it should be remembered that Tacitus was not an eyewitness.

His writings are full of inaccuracies regarding Jewish history and customs, and he admits that his casualty statistics were received secondhand.

Josephus further defends his figure of 1,100,000 by pointing out that not long before the Roman invasion of Judea a count had been taken of the number of animals sacrificed during the Passover and it was found that 256,500 had been killed.

Since an average of 10 persons would eat the Passover meal from the same animal, Josephus concluded that as many as 2,500,000 persons could be found in Jerusalem for the Passover.

Josephus’ credentials as an eyewitness historian are impressive.

Of course, he was not an eyewitness to events inside the city of Jerusalem during its siege, but he was able to procure the freedom of some 200 Jewish survivors after the fall of the city and he could have interviewed them.

During the siege there was also a steady stream of Jewish deserters, and Josephus was free to interview these as well. Additionally, he apparently had access to the diaries and commentaries of his patrons Vespasian and Titus, since he refers to these documents in his later writings.

But there is no reason to doubt the overall accuracy of Josephus’ work. After all, it was written during the lifetime of all those involved in the events being chronicled.

Any serious inaccuracies would have been pounced upon by the author’s many jealous detractors.

Thank you. A very interesting post especially for me as although I learned this stuff at school I had forgotten most of it.
 
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Yes it appears that some alteration of Josephus may have been done but many people have analysed the language used and believe that the passages were on the whole factual.

Tacitus, Suetonius and Pliny the Younger indicate that Christianity had spread about 40AD.

If you want to read about evidence then try "The Case for Christ" by Strobel.

I will add that book to my reading list, I'm currently reading Mere Christianity.


Are there any other mention of jesus outside of the bible other than Josephus?
 
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Here's what I think about the historical jesus.

Firstly, Its irrelevant, it's what people believe jesus to be and how that belief effects how they live their lives, that is actually important.

Second (and this is wild speculation) jesus the man was probably a charismatic cult leader and like cult leaders today he was probably interested in power, sex or money. I very much doubt that he was a good man.
 
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A very interesting post especially for me as although I learned this stuff at school I had forgotten most of it.
So they taught you all of this unsubstantiated stuff at school as facts? What was it I was saying about indoctrination? :(

.
 
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I put DCE on my ignore list to avoid his cut and pastes, please don't quote it.

Irritating to be reminded of the fact that he NEVER, EVER references his cut and pastes either.

If it's not referenced is should be assumed to be JW propaganda and ignored.
 
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I put DCE on my ignore list to avoid his cut and pastes, please don't quote it.

That wasn't a cut and paste; there was no preaching and I found it interesting, please don't presume to tell me what to do with my posts, if you do not like my posts the answer is simple put me on your ignore list as well.
 
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Why not flip the coin and ask what are so many of our laws based on disgust?

A landowner not allowed to protect his property?
Same sex marriages and adoptions?
The murder of unborn children?
Horrendous animal cruelties?

Look at the state of this country. Children are our oppressors. We have adults in inner cities on a voluntary curfew because they feel intimidated to go out while children are out.

If we did follow Gods laws, what a wonderful world this would be.

If we did follow Gods laws, what a wonderful world this would be.

I must take this opportunity to inform, other forum members, that it is very true, as the following testimonies show.

Model Citizens"-Branded as Dangerous

Which religious group was said to be "the most dangerous of all sects" in the opinion of Catholic authorities quoted in Spain's popular ABC newspaper?

You may be surprised to learn that ABC was talking about Jehovah's Witnesses.

Do the accusations made against them have an impartial, objective basis?

Note the following declarations from other sources:

"The Witnesses teach people to pay their taxes honestly, not to participate in wars or preparations for war, not to steal and, in general, to follow a life-style that if it were adopted by others would lead to an improvement in the standards of civil cohabitation."-Sergio Albesano, Talento, November-December 1996.

"Contrary to the insinuations circulated on certain occasions, [Jehovah's Witnesses] do not appear to me to represent the slightest danger to the State's institutions. They are citizens who are peace-loving, conscientious, and respectful toward the authorities."-A Belgian parliamentary deputy.

"The Jehovah's Witnesses are recognizably the most honest people in the Federal Republic."-German newspaper Sindelfinger Zeitung.

"You might regard [Jehovah's Witnesses] as model citizens. They pay taxes diligently, tend the sick, battle illiteracy."-U.S. newspaper San Francisco Examiner.

"Jehovah's Witnesses experience greater success than members of other denominations in maintaining stable marital unions."-American Ethnologist.

"Jehovah's Witnesses are among the most upright and diligent of the citizenry of African countries."-Dr.Bryan Wilson, Oxford University.

"Members of that faith have contributed greatly through the decades toward expanding liberty of conscience."-Nat Hentoff, Free Speech for Me-But Not for Thee.

"They have made a definite contribution to the preservation of some of the most precious things in our democracy."-Professor C.*S. Braden, These Also Believe.

As the above quotations indicate, Jehovah's Witnesses are recognized throughout the world as exemplary citizens.

In addition, they are known for their free Bible education work and for the promotion of family values.

Their literacy classes have helped hundreds of thousands, while their humanitarian works over the decades have helped thousands, especially in Africa.

The Importance of Objectivity

Society is rife with unscrupulous people preying on innocent victims.

Consequently, there is a definite need to be vigilant when it comes to claims about religion.

But just how objective and how conducive to religious freedom is it when some journalists, instead of consulting objective experts, rely on information from churches who see their numbers dwindling or from antisect organizations whose objectivity is open to serious question?

The newspaper that called Jehovah's Witnesses "the most dangerous of all sects" admitted, for instance, that its definitions came from "the experts of the [Catholic] Church." I wonder why?

In addition, one French magazine noted that the majority of articles dealing with supposed sects originated with antisect organizations.

Does this sound to you like the most impartial way of getting objective information?

International courts and organizations concerned with basic human rights, such as the UN, say that "the distinction between a religion and a sect or cult, is too contrived to be acceptable."

Then why do some persist in the use of the pejorative word "sect or cult"?

It is further evidence that religious freedom is threatened, by we all know who.

On a real another positive note Jesus said this:-

(Matthew 5:11-12) 11*"Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake. 12*Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.
 
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So they taught you all of this unsubstantiated stuff at school as facts? What was it I was saying about indoctrination? :(

.

I really haven't got any interest in debating anything with anybody so base as to quote his grandchildren to further his arguments and then accuse other people of indoctrination; your one very sad man.
 
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That wasn't a cut and paste; there was no preaching and I found it interesting, please don't presume to tell me what to do with my posts, if you do not like my posts the answer is simple put me on your ignore list as well.

Well said Mobyme, well said. Yes.

There are a lot of people in this thread proud of saying "I've put DCE on my ignore list". Good for them and who cares. I had a bath yesterday and I put a post on about what I had for my tea. Can I be on their ignore list as well! Who cares!

On a more serious note, I don't come on to this thread often because whatever I post is lost two days letter and I cant find reference to it. There seems to be an amount of trying to get at DCE in a way that is undignified and unfair. If people do not like what he has to say then yes, simply ignore him.

I find what he has to say very interesting. We will not agree on everything but who will? There will be differences.

DCE is accused of being clouded and in a cult, set in his ways, won't listen etc. To them that say that I say this -

What is a cult -

understandings may vary and the dictionary definition does not reveal a fat lot, my understanding until someone corrects me is where a person is brainwashed, will listen to one person as their leader, will have no contact or very very minimal on the outside world, will have no TV etc etc.

Yet here we have DCE, a supposed member of a cult, engaging with people who are not the same as him. Quoting form the Bible, unafraid to use it as reference. Unafraid to listen to what non believers have to say.

I do not see DCE as being in a cult at all, if he was members outside of that cult would not know him and he certainly would make no appearance on a forum like this.
 
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I must take this opportunity to inform, other forum members, that IM ABOUT TO PROSLETYZE ON THE PART OF THE JEHOVAHS WITNESS CULT....

Then why do some persist in the use of the pejorative word “sect or cult”?

Because you are a cult - as has been shown over and over again here.

And you're a cult member, as every time you open your mouth shows.

Simple really. :rolleyes:
 
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Selection_009.png


Its a direct Copy & Paste from The Watchtower. Feel free to look it up yourself.
 
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That wasn't a cut and paste; there was no preaching and I found it interesting, please don't presume to tell me what to do with my posts, if you do not like my posts the answer is simple put me on your ignore list as well.

Im sorry to have to disagree, but it was indeed cut and paste from a jehovah witness defense blog here:

http://pastorrussell.blogspot.com/2009/08/flavius-josephus.html

DCE doesnt read, critique, write or produce anything that is not jehovah witness approved, or found on jw sympathetic sites or the watchtower.

That's fine - just dont make the mistake of assuming he has a broad reach of historisity or understanding.
 
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Yet here we have DCE, a supposed member of a cult, engaging with people who are not the same as him. Quoting form the Bible, unafraid to use it as reference. Unafraid to listen to what non believers have to say.

He doesnt engage with people - he preaches and prosletyzes. He doesnt listen to what others say - he has continuously referred to information given to him that challenges his position and demonstrate the cultish nature of the jws as the work of satan and refuses to even look at it.
I guessed you missed all that.
 
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Yet here we have DCE, a supposed member of a cult, engaging with people who are not the same as him. Quoting form the Bible, unafraid to use it as reference. Unafraid to listen to what non believers have to say.

I do not see DCE as being in a cult at all, if he was members outside of that cult would not know him and he certainly would make no appearance on a forum like this.

DCE does not engage with people or listen to what non believers say, he skips over most of what is written here as the work of the devil, it is impossible to have a two way conversation with him.

So can we get back to the historical jesus now?
 
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He doesnt engage with people - he preaches and prosletyzes. He doesnt listen to what others say - he has continuously referred to information given to him that challenges his position and demonstrate the cultish nature of the jws as the work of satan and refuses to even look at it.
I guessed you missed all that.

That's the difference of knowing what the real truth is, why would you look at something, which one know's is not true?

You apparently worship Jesus, as God almighty, and worship his mother Mary, my goodness, what are you thinking about, you have Saints that you pray to, where did that all come from?

Jesus said this at (John 4:23-26) .Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the true worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24*God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth." 25*The woman said to him: "I know that Mes·si′ah is coming, who is called Christ. Whenever that one arrives, he will declare all things to us openly." 26*Jesus said to her: "I who am speaking to you am he."

What does Messiah mean "anointed one." who anointed Jesus, himself?

It's what you call, reasoning on the scriptures my friend.
 
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You apparently worship Jesus, as God almighty, and worship his mother Mary.

Proof you never read anything, or if you do, you fail to understand it - Ive corrected your erroneous thinking on this several times. I cant the asr$ed to go through it all again as theres no reason to think you'll read it this time either.

Have a word with Consistency and listen to his explanation as to why Jesus is God. This is what he believes. Maybe you'll listen to him, or at the very least, read what he writes as it's supposed to be a two way street!!!
 
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That's the difference of knowing what the real truth is, why would you look at something, which one know's is not true?

Your determination in your surety is scary DCE... Its the same type that allows people to strap bombs to themselves and commit atrocities in the name of religion.

You'll not know the truth until you die, like the rest of us... If you cannot accept that as a baseline, then you really have been indoctrinated beyond just faith.
 
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That's the difference of knowing what the real truth is, ..................]

Your not gonna be counting this as preaching time on the ministry slips or whatever they are called now?

I strongly suspect this is exactly what he does. He fills his little card out every week clocking up the time he spent preaching and prosletyzing here, then gets his brownie points from his overseer.

Another reason why he cannot ever be seen to be taking anyone elses viewpoint on board.
 
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Its a direct Copy & Paste from The Watchtower. Feel free to look it up yourself.

Marvellous insight into what Jehovah's Witnesses really are portrayed as, for a change.

Its an improvement on what the Catholic Church, and the Orthodox Church Christian members, are saying.

Of course not to leave out Atheists, who we can only assume, they are also a religion in there own right, CJD being the High Priest of course.
 
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Which religious group was said to be "the most dangerous of all sects" in the opinion of Catholic authorities quoted in Spain's popular ABC newspaper?

Ive been on the ABC website and cant find any reference to this - I might be using the wrong search terms though.... please supply the reference so we can read the full article unedited. I also want to see who from the church is quoted so we can see if theyre expressing a personal opinion or speaking on behalf of the whole catholic church.
 
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We've had this before with DCE's media quotes... You go to find them online and you can't, the only place they appear is The Watchtower website.
 
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I really haven't got any interest in debating anything with anybody so base as to quote his grandchildren to further his arguments and then accuse other people of indoctrination; your one very sad man.
I feel like I am being stalked. :eek:

Chris, it is actually very clear that you don't have much interest in debating anything with anyone. Apart from stalking me all you have done since you joined this thread is dish out insults like...

You have got a bloody nerve; you constantly spout drivel. At least your playmates can usually put up a reasoned argument.

and

A typical response from someone who hasn't added a single line of original thought to the entire thread.
Can you give an example of something reasonable that you have contributed to this debate?

Describing me as "base" for offering you a simple, true story as an example clearly illustrates where your mind is so don't accuse me of being one very sad man. How low will you stoop to try to insult me next? Can't you just stay on the debate without being so malicious and belligerent?

My story was an illustration of how kids should be allowed to make up their own minds about these things rather than being taught religious fables as actual fact (as you were). Your twisting this to somehow imply that I have been indoctrinating my family beggars belief.

I will however ask the others if they all consider my story to be in any way "base" or in any way out of order. If the consensus is that it was then I will back out of this thread. Will you do the same if they think your comments are out of order?

.
 
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Selection_009.png


Its a direct Copy & Paste from The Watchtower. Feel free to look it up yourself.

I stand corrected, it is a cut and paste; but there again it's not a habit of mine to go scouring the internet checking whether or not a post is entirely the authors own work. It was still a very interesting post and I found it a useful reminder of things that I used to know and had forgotten.
I have been reading the Watchtower by proxy :eek:
 
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I stand corrected, it is a cut and paste; but there again it's not a habit of mine to go scouring the internet checking whether or not a post is entirely the authors own work. It was still a very interesting post and I found it a useful reminder of things that I used to know and had forgotten.
I have been reading the Watchtower by proxy :eek:

True, it doesn't normally happen, but between this thread and the hundreds of pages in the Knowing the Mind of God thread, we have learned to check the sources quoted at us.
 
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Proof you never read anything, or if you do, you fail to understand it - Ive corrected your erroneous thinking on this several times. I cant the asr$ed to go through it all again as theres no reason to think you'll read it this time either.

Have a word with Consistency and listen to his explanation as to why Jesus is God. This is what he believes. Maybe you'll listen to him, or at the very least, read what he writes as it's supposed to be a two way street!!!

Jesus is the son of God. God gave his son. Are you an authority on what I believe? You are more authorised than me. What shall I have for tea tonight?
 
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I found it a useful reminder of things that I used to know and had forgotten.

You mustn't take anything that DCE says as correct. He tells some shocking lies for a supposed Christian - not publishing his sources and pretending it's his own work is simply dishonest and we've caught him at it dozens of times.

I have been reading the Watchtower by proxy :eek:

Yup, as above - please ignore him.
 
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You mustn't take anything that DCE says as correct. He tells some shocking lies for a supposed Christian - not publishing his sources and pretending it's his own work is simply dishonest and we've caught him at it dozens of times.



Yup, as above - please ignore him.

How can they be lies, if he belives them to be correct?
 
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Jesus is the son of God. God gave his son. Are you an authority on what I believe? You are more authorised than me. What shall I have for tea tonight?

Well here's a direct quote from your churches website www.lcg.org

Jesus Christ is God, as God the Father is God.

http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/lcg/qanda/lcg-qa.cgi?category=qanda1&item=1218666801

You dont even know what your own church teaches :rolleyes:

As for what to have for tea tonight - I hightly recommend a slice of lose the attitude with whatever you have - followed by 5mg of get over yourself.
 
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I'm still waiting for the reference DCE - every offical church pronouncement on anything to do with the catholic church is on the vatican website - Ive scoured that and there is no reference what so ever to your claimed statement.

My spanish is pretty good, so link directly to the ABC website if you prefer, and I can read it there.

tick.... tock..... tick.... tock.......tick.... tock.........
 
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