Are you a Christian?

[Kett]

Hi,

Not meaning to offend or reject those who are not.

But to those who are Christians, I just wondered whether any one here feels their faith is a vital part of how they run their business?

If so do you always find the help that you seek is in synch with your faith.

For example.. I would love to pitch to a Business Angel, but cannot give a part of the business to someone with other values. It is very important to me to give a percentage to a Christian charity and it would be unfair to impose that on someone who did not have that belief.

I know many businesses give to charity and not claiming only Christians give.. but that I would feel uneasy about a conflict of interests if my business partner did not feel happy about the charities we give to or the amount.

Any thoughts?

 

[Scott-Copywriter]

Hi,

Not meaning to offend or reject those who are not.

But to those who are Christians, I just wondered whether any one here feels their faith is a vital part of how they run their business?

If so do you always find the help that you seek is in synch with your faith.

For example.. I would love to pitch to a Business Angel, but cannot give a part of the business to someone with other values. It is very important to me to give a percentage to a Christian charity and it would be unfair to impose that on someone who did not have that belief.

I know many businesses give to charity and not claiming only Christians give.. but that I would feel uneasy about a conflict of interests if my business partner did not feel happy about the charities we give to or the amount.

Any thoughts?

My faith isn't part of my business at all. I'm running a business and selling services to clients so it doesn't have to be part of my business and I don't want it to be. There's a time and a place for it.

 

[seanstevens]

I run a business pure and simple. Religon does not have an impact on the business decisions I make and I would not want it too.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Dealing with allsorts of people from different parts of the globe ,diifferent religions and cultures makes the modern business world a nice place to be.
I was brought up in a white christian town in Devon where you were not ment to deal with anybody else .I soon shed this small minded and retarded attidude.
I stayed in this one horse town but my dealings with people from differnt countries and faiths has given me the chance to meet and work with lots of different people.

Have time and respect for others and you will always be able to work with them !!

 

[movietub]

I don't think any serious commited purist christian (or pretty much any other faith group) are able to combine their business life with their personal life beliefs. There are way to many conflicts.

For example, most serious Christians would frown upon sex / co-habitation before marriage. Yet the book they preach from mentions this sort of thing much less than the sin of borrowing or being in debt.

The Bible repeatedly says all form of debt are very bad. So if a Christian allowed their beliefs to influence the business there would be no overdraft, no accepting credit cards, no supplier or service account terms, no loans of any kind.

Thats just one example of how the two are not compatible at their purest, i'm sure there are hundreds more.

Not saying you can't be religeous and run a business. But if the two were involved enough to affect each other you would surely get more conflicts than benefits?

 

[TFGtv]

Any thoughts?

I think any spiritual person will be equipped, by their faith, with a set of morals accord with which will guide all their everyday activities. And in that definition I include people who might think themselves Agnostic or even Atheist but merely have a strong sense of decency... If you honestly believe in a one true God then there is nothing to argue about with such people. For such a moral compass can only be God-given.

In the broadest sense Christianity (like most others) is a man-made religion that has encompassed and embraced every evil under the sun from war to child abuse. And far from being driven by a faith in anything 'real' or even anything moral, most rooftop-shouting 'Christians' are, in truth, anything but! Rather they are indulgants in what I shall politely term 'spiritual self-abuse'.

I won't work for or with anyone who's values as I'm able to discover them are not in accord with my own moral compass. I can tell you that one of the most corrupt, dishonest and basically evil people I've ever encountered was, and remains, a 'Christian' evangelist working out of the Lanarkshire area. And the same can be said for many that rank behind him in that scale of undesirability.

So the bottom line is that I struggle to see your perspective as anything other than a biggoted one. One of the key facts that your faith should be guiding you towards is that (as we say in Scotland) 'we're a' Jock Tamson's Bairns'. That, and the fact that you have the God-given gift of a moral compass. Why are you throwing this is his face?

The short answer is that a person's religion is just one of the things that are personal to them and not within my right or wont to judge; if you check your Bible you'll find that's someone else's job! So NO! It doesn't come into play when I'm doing business any more or less than it does when I'm doing anything else in my life...

And can I just add that I don't really think this belongs in the general business section... More a 'Time Out' thread..

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I don't think any serious commited purist christian (or pretty much any other faith group) are able to combine their business life with their personal life beliefs. There are way to many conflicts.

For example, most serious Christians would frown upon sex / co-habitation before marriage. Yet the book they preach from mentions this sort of thing much less than the sin of borrowing or being in debt.

The Bible repeatedly says all form of debt are very bad. So if a Christian allowed their beliefs to influence the business there would be no overdraft, no accepting credit cards, no supplier or service account terms, no loans of any kind.

Thats just one example of how the two are not compatible at their purest, i'm sure there are hundreds more.

Not saying you can't be religeous and run a business. But if the two were involved enough to affect each other you would surely get more conflicts than benefits?

Ha the bible mentions debts I always assumed this addressed personal debts and not those of a limited company

"Look vicar the business calapsed it was limited so not my problem"

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

And can I just add that I don't really think this belongs in the general business section... More a 'Time Out' thread..

I disagree it should be a business thread as so many business people are in someway driven by their faith.Its just something that people are genraly afraid of

 

[Kett]

Hey,

I just asked about if another Christian had a similar situation. I am not defending abuses other have done for which I am not responsible! (And which I doubt God was involved with!)
: )

Just trying to do right myself.

Surely no 'moral framework' would endorse going into business with someone who was walking to a different drumbeat, especially if that involved different priorities on how money was spent from the business revenue.

This is not a thread about Christian belief but about how to find like minded people when forming partnership, angel involvement etc.

 

[movietub]

Ha the bible mentions debts I always assumed this addressed personal debts and not those of a limited company

Ahh but one could only use that argument if they accept that the business is its own entity and therfore does not need to share the religion of its employees - even if they own it.

 

I hope I am a humanararian hence I give what I can to whoever I think is in the most need.

Country of birth,Race ,religion ,colour is not a factor I consider.

And I do find it offesive that religions will only help there own members.

A child dying of starvation is a child in desperate need .

what where and who I do business with.?

all are welcome to buy from me.

Earl

 

[Kett]

And I do find it offesive that religions will only help there own members.

A child dying of starvation is a child in desperate need .


Earl

So do I.
Christianity is completely against this too.
In fact it is about helping others more.

But the post was about sharing the business with someone with different priorities.

 

[Jenni384]

I guess it depends what your priorities in business are.
For most, it is to make money.
For others, it is to make money ethically
For othes, it is to make money and use some of that to help other people.

Given that they are essentially what it boils down to, I don't necessarily think that religion is *that* much of an issue.

If you are giving away equity for investment and you have certain stipulations, then get it written into the shareholders agreement about charitable giving, ethical activities etc.

I don't know how you'd go about specifically finding a business angel with the same views as you. I think if this is what you're after, you are severely limiting yourself and your business's potential.

Alternatively if you can find someone who will respect your views even if they don't adhere to your beliefs themselves, I think that will be more achievable. In this way, it's much the same as meeting a potential business partner and thinking either, yes I can work with them or, eek, no I can't.

 

[movietub]

Hey,

I just asked about if another Christian had a similar situation. I am not defending abuses other have done for which I am not responsible! (And which I doubt God was involved with!)
: )

Just trying to do right myself.

Surely no 'moral framework' would endorse going into business with someone who was walking to a different drumbeat, especially if that involved different priorities on how money was spent from the business revenue.

This is not a thread about Christian belief but about how to find like minded people when forming partnership, angel involvement etc.

Why should your moral framework be more of an issue when it comes to joint managing a business than any other activity you might be involved in? Do you only shop at all Christian staffed supermarkets? Only drive cars built by companies that support the christianity first and foremost?

The core problem is that when two or more people form a new company they have a legal responsibity to act in the interests of that company, and chariatbel donation has to come second to the future prosperity of that company.

For instance if you have a great year and donat 30k to charity, then the next year is very poor and you have to lay of staff you could find yourself in all sorts of trouble, being very heavily criticised.

It would be much simpler if each person took dividends as and when the company could afford it and made their own choices as to what to do with the cash.

 

[movietub]

So do I.
Christianity is completely against this too.
In fact it is about helping others more.

But the post was about sharing the business with someone with different priorities.

If you run a business the health of the business is your chief responsibility and priority during all hours spent at work. All decisions made must be to the benefit of the business. Maybe what you need to setup is a charity or trust?

 

[lockie]

Religion has no place in it,causes enough problems as it is. Just do the right thing regardless of who or what you believe in.

 

[movietub]

Also is it not entirely possible, probable in fact, that you will find a more suitable person if you do not stipulate their personal beliefs? As a result the business would grow faster and make more money. This would allow you or the business to make larger charitable donations long term.

Its impossible to find the best person to run the business if your main focus is their religous beliefs, ahead of their experience and professional suitability. As a result you will have a poorly managed bausiness which is less capable of supporting the chairities.

These things, they ain't black and white! God works in mysterious ways and to be most effective, so must you.

 

[stockdam]

If it's your business then you do what you want. If you feel that you want a partner etc. with similar values then you should follow through. There are lots of people who could help but if you think that you'd not be happy with some of their suggestions or decisions then you should walk away.

To take a simple example......suppose you had a partner and that they felt strongly about something that you felt was wrong but you could understand that in theory it made business sense then you wouldn't be happy. The values and ethics of a company are important so you would be correct in choosing people who agree with them. That generally only applies to partners or senior people but it also may apply to all your employees.

 

[Kett]

. All decisions made must be to the benefit of the business. Maybe what you need to setup is a charity or trust?

The 'benefit' of the business though is subject to parameters. That is why people buy fair trade even though its more expensive. Even some business have fair trade policies.

Are you saying that any business should only hold onto a value if it refelcts positively in the bottom line?

There are many businesses that have started because someone wanted to do something good for someone else... wind up radio comes instantly to mind and a whole range of eco things.

If for example an organic farmer found he could trade more profitably going non-organic are you saying he is obliged to do so even if against all he believes in because it is in the best interest of the company?

 

[movietub]

To take a simple example......suppose you had a partner and that they felt strongly about something that you felt was wrong but you could understand that in theory it made business sense then you wouldn't be happy. The values and ethics of a company are important so you would be correct in choosing people who agree with them. That generally only applies to partners or senior people but it also may apply to all your employees.

That really is wrong. If the business suffers and fails due to religous priorities then the directors could be held personally responsible. It doesnt matter if all the owners and staff are Christian, the company itself is not Christian. The company exists only to secure its own future, any person who makes a decision based on the best interests of their religion, rather than the company, can be penalised.

It really is that simple.

 

[movietub]

The 'benefit' of the business though is subject to parameters. That is why people buy fair trade even though its more expensive. Even some business have fair trade policies.

Are you saying that any business should only hold onto a value if it refelcts positively in the bottom line?

There are many businesses that have started because someone wanted to do something good for someone else... wind up radio comes instantly to mind and a whole range of eco things.

If for example an organic farmer found he could trade more profitably going non-organic are you saying he is obliged to do so even if against all he believes in because it is in the best interest of the company?

No, because selling organic food is a proven profitable occupation. What I am saying is that the managements personal views should never detract from the health of the business. Clearly if you sell organic food then there is a great value to the business in donating to charity. People who buy organic food tend to be charitable themselves and would no doubt stick with your brand if they knew you donated 10% everytime they shopped with you. That would justify the ongoing charitable donations.

But that situation would not require one or any of the owners to personally support the cause, the business is supporting the cause becasue there is a clear mutual benefit.

 

[stockdam]

That really is wrong. If the business suffers and fails due to religous priorities then the directors could be held personally responsible. It doesnt matter if all the owners and staff are Christian, the company itself is not Christian. The company exists only to secure its own future, any person who makes a decision based on the best interests of their religion, rather than the company, can be penalised.

It really is that simple.

I didn't mention Christian or otherwise....I was talking about values. All Christians don't hold the same values.

A company doesn't "exist to secure it's own future"........I can do what I want with my own company.

Like it or not, values do come into decisions. The aim of a company is to achieve goals........not just to make money. If you employ people with similar values then it's easier to achieve goals that are not solely money and profit based.

If somebody came up to me and guaranteed that I'd make £1M by selling something illegal but that there would be no risk of me being caught then I wouldn't do it. That's not good financial business but ethics and values are important to some (in fact all) businesses.

 

[Jenni384]

That really is wrong. If the business suffers and fails due to religous priorities then the directors could be held personally responsible. It doesnt matter if all the owners and staff are Christian, the company itself is not Christian. The company exists only to secure its own future, any person who makes a decision based on the best interests of their religion, rather than the company, can be penalised.

It really is that simple.

By whom? If the shareholders and directors are sharing a common purpose, who is going to hold them responsible?

Thinking aloud here...

Ok, so if they get into a position where they can't pay their creditors because they've given half the money to charity, that could be a problem.

But if they've sourced, say, more expenseive materials because they are fair trade, that's not an issue, a company can conduct it's business how it sees fit .

The company yes is its own person but exists only because of its shareholders. So to completely isolate it's sense of 'self' from all human concerns is a bit too far, as it has no mind of its own aside from its human controllers.

If we take the word 'Christian' out of the equation and just said "I want to run my business in a way that's ethical and give some of the profits to charity when I can" I don't think you would be able to criticise it in the way you appear to be doing because the OP has brought religion into it. People will naturally conduct their affairs in a way that does not conflict with their personal beliefs. I don't see why business is different, as long as the company is still run properly and the directors continue in their responsibilities as is appropriate.

 

[Kett]

Why should your moral framework be more of an issue when it comes to joint managing a business than any other activity you might be involved in? Do you only shop at all Christian staffed supermarkets? Only drive cars built by companies that support the christianity first and foremost?

The core problem is that when two or more people form a new company they have a legal responsibity to act in the interests of that company, and chariatbel donation has to come second to the future prosperity of that company.

For instance if you have a great year and donat 30k to charity, then the next year is very poor and you have to lay of staff you could find yourself in all sorts of trouble, being very heavily criticised.

It would be much simpler if each person took dividends as and when the company could afford it and made their own choices as to what to do with the cash.

I think there are two issues here .. which are combined in many small businesses and separate in large ones.

As an employee of the biz.. a separate legal entity. The manager is obliged to seek to benefit the biz within its goals and objectives. The company is not Christian, Hindu or Moslem


As a shareholder the owner can direct the values of the company. And Stockdam is right that it is sensible to work with people who share your values.

Here is the problem. If I were employing a consultant I would say 'these are the parameters' which would be within the brief. And if shopping in someone else's shop I would go with their rules unless it was very offensive.

But when looking for an angel, this involves sharing the value setting part of the biz too as they will take shares. I would not sell shares to someone with different values as that is storing up problems for later.

With a big concern where each shareholder has limited say it again may not be a problem but with a small owner-manager biz it is.

 

[movietub]

By whom? If the shareholders and directors are sharing a common purpose, who is going to hold them responsible?

Thinking aloud here...

Ok, so if they get into a position where they can't pay their creditors because they've given half the money to charity, that could be a problem.

But if they've sourced, say, more expenseive materials because they are fair trade, that's not an issue, a company can conduct it's business how it sees fit .

The company yes is its own person but exists only because of its shareholders. So to completely isolate it's sense of 'self' from all human concerns is a bit too far, as it has no mind of its own aside from its human controllers.

If we take the word 'Christian' out of the equation and just said "I want to run my business in a way that's ethical and give some of the profits to charity when I can" I don't think you would be able to criticise it in the way you appear to be doing because the OP has brought religion into it. People will naturally conduct their affairs in a way that does not conflict with their personal beliefs. I don't see why business is different, as long as the company is still run properly and the directors continue in their responsibilities as is appropriate.

You are right of course. My concern however is that the OP appears to be focussed on being christian, and only discussing the business with other christians, to such an extent that its hard to believe the 'best for the business' decisions will be made at all times.

Rating suitability of a partner based on their religous beliefs is hardly the best choice for the business.

Question to the OP.

If you had a choice between 2 people to partner up with which would you choose?

1) a devout christian with some business experience, although not in the relevant sector. But the very same views and aspirations as yourself. This person has put together a draft business plan which conservativly suggests the business could comfortably donate 10k pa to charity whilst paying both your salaries also.

2) An athiest that has a proven track record of success in your sector. They have no interest in faith but they are happy to agree that 50% of year end profit can go to charity - although they do feel its important they make a big song and dance about this for marketting purposes. Also they are keen on holding a function twice a year, in part for the charities benefit, in part to enjoy a great deal of tax releif champagne... Their projections show that the 50% to charity will in fact equal more like 20k pa.

So which do you go for? the best person for the business? Or the best meaning person for the charity? It's entirely possible the person that cares most about the chairty and being a good christian could deliver the poorest results and lower donations.

 

[Jenni384]

But when looking for an angel, this involves sharing the value setting part of the biz too as they will take shares. I would not sell shares to someone with different values as that is storing up problems for later.

I think it depends which particular values you are thinking of here and which potential problems you anticipate.

If it's values like, "Neither of us want to use sweat shops" then you don't need something as specific as sharing the exact same religious beliefs (IMO). Many other faiths (I dislike religion) and indeed agnostics and atheists will have similar ethical beliefs.

However if the values you are thinking of are very focused and specific that woulds only be compatible with a narrow belief spectrum, then indeed you might want to choose your angels more carefully and specifically.

Also, is it simply a case of, "I won't sell shares to someone who has very different ethics to me" (more understandable) or is it, "I won't sell shares to someone who has a similar ethical belief-set to me, but isn't a Christian so I won't."?

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Meanwhile back to the OP.
Kett,belief and faith are all very well,but do they pay the bills?

 

[Kett]

Ah but I would like to find a devout Christian .. with relevant business experience.

Whether they would want to work with me??? Who knows

 

[movietub]

Ah but I would like to find a devout Christian .. with relevant business experience.

Whether they would want to work with me??? Who knows

But which do you as most important? If you narrow the search to Christians only then you greatly decrease of chances of finding the best person to run the business as effectively as possible. A better performing business has the ability to give more to charity.

I AM NOT saying that christians can't run a business as well as anyone else of course. Simply that you could overlook the perfect business partner becasue they happen not to be christian.

You could have both, but you could well end up giving less to charity as a result.

 

[Jenni384]

Kett,

I understand your desire to work with someone of the same faith.

However, why specifically is this? As long has they have similar business ethics and understand your religious concerns, why would it matter if they were a devour Christian or not - this way you have a broader choice of people to work with which, as Movietub rightly points out, may give you better scope of making profit which you can use for good works.

 

[vvaannmmaann]

Kett.This should keep you entertained for hours! Good luck with whatever happens.


http://www.gobignetwork.com/Information/Angel-Investors/Angel-Christian-Investor.aspx

http://www.helium.com/knowledge/47109-christian-ethics-versus-business-ethics

http://www.christiansatwork.org.uk/cgi-bin/caw.cgi?&page=resources&rescode=194

http://www.cbd-search.com/

http://www.iccc.net/

http://www.ehow.co.uk/how_5558075_start-christian-business.html

 

[cjd]

There's a long history of successful companies with a strong religious ethos - Rowntree, Cadbury spring to mind. But they tried to do good within their empires - and were rather brilliant at it too - rather than restrict who they did business with; obviously they sold chocolate to anyone.

I think you'd get into trouble advertising for a Christian employee - Equal Ops etc.

If you're looking for an investor, better make it plain that you may be forced to make sub-optimal decisions because of your faith - it would take a real angel to invest in that!

 

[Kett]

There's a long history of successful companies with a strong religious ethos - Rowntree, Cadbury spring to mind. But they tried to do good within their empires - and were rather brilliant at it too - rather than restrict who they did business with; obviously they sold chocolate to anyone.

I think you'd get into trouble advertising for a Christian employee - Equal Ops etc.

If you're looking for an investor, better make it plain that you may be forced to make sub-optimal decisions because of your faith - it would take a real angel to invest in that!

Didn't mean to imply restrictions, other than who we share the company with as in shareholder/ angel. We have no intention of looking for Christian employees. The objective of my business is to reach out and help others, not to restrict who we work with as suppliers or customers.

Actually rather than being sub-optimal, I rather think that being on God's side is a huge advantage! ; ) But with it comes resposibilities.

I do not know how widespread the faith was of the leaders of companies like Cadburys, but I stongly suspect that there was a more widespread acceptance generally that God had the last word. I used to work for Reckitts who were of a similar vein and I got the impression when people spoke of the rise of the company that there was a lot of agreement on values at the top of the company, but then it was largely one family with a couple of charismatic leaders.

 

[Kett]

vvaannmmaann

Thank you... I am enjoying !

 

[garyk]

ouch!

now the religious posts are not just popping up in 'time-out' (where they should be) we have this in General Business forum??? come on this is getting a little silly now (mods?)

 

Actually rather than being sub-optimal, I rather think that being on God's side is a huge advantage! ; ) But with it comes resposibilities.

Sure do being the chosen one,I find that with google.

Earl

 

[Jenni384]

ouch!

now the religious posts are not just popping up in 'time-out' (where they should be) we have this in General Business forum??? come on this is getting a little silly now (mods?)

Disagree - for some this is a genuine business concern, this is not a general discussion on faith/religion. Just because it's possibly a minority concern does not move it to Time Out as opposed to General.

 

Disagree - for some this is a genuine business concern, this is not a general discussion on faith/religion. Just because it's possibly a minority concern does not move it to Time Out as opposed to General.

Hm its a flippant post deliberately posted to further the OP particular religion,Gods spam methinks.

The OP would have to have had serious brain surgery to not be able to answer his query himself.

Earl

 

[Jenni384]

Hm its a flippant post deliberately posted to further the OP particular religion,Gods spam methinks.

The OP would have to have had serious brain surgery to not be able to answer his query himself.

Earl

Apart from the fact the OP's replies have mostly been in relation to the business query and haven't really been preachy

For the record, I'm an ex-Christian, I don't have an interest in 'God spam'

 

[cjd]

Actually rather than being sub-optimal, I rather think that being on God's side is a huge advantage! ; )

Well no, it has very serious disadvantages. For one, god is not on your side - but lets stick to business. If you constantly have to check the question "what would Jesus do?" you're very likely to fail.

But if you had a business selling to a Christian niche market it could be a definite advantage. You may not like the analogy but gays selling to gays is a very strong USP.