Are you a Christian?

[FaerieB]

In this case, yes

I can see he's posted something after you, but I cant see what it is, just a box with his name in it, nothing else, so I can answer you, without having to see or wade through his diatripes.

I can assure you that the threads make much more sense. If you ignore him then no one will respond to him. He will get fed up and go and do whatever else he does to noise people up.

If people continue to respond to him then you will see their posts but you can then put them on ignore too if you chose.

The satisfying thing about this is that DCE can see what I am writing about him and he cannot respond to me because I will not see it.

I LOVE IT

It's the virtual equivalent of the JW standing on your doorstep talking to your closed door.

He will also feel like a persecuted christian martyr so its wins all round

It's marvellous how God answers your prayers, Cjd Tophat, Parthelan, bdw, all gone, in one minute.

Jesus said this (Matthew 17:20) For truly I say to YOU, If YOU have faith the size of a mustard grain, YOU will say to this mountain, ‘Transfer from here to there,’ and it will transfer, and nothing will be impossible for YOU..*.*.

Peace of mind at last, is it not great, God never let's us down.

So you made him invisible but I can still see him and in return he can make you invisible but I can still see him ... you can all be invisible and visible at the same time to different people x

Got to be a real blessing don't you think?

But what if I do this x

 

[Jeff Knows]

It's marvellous how God answers your prayers, Cjd Tophat, Parthelan, bdw, all gone, in one minute.

I think you will find the good coders at vBulletin are actually the ones who made it possible for you to ignore rational thought.

Look, they even have their own bible : http://www.amazon.co.uk/vBulletin-U...1671/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301323084&sr=8-1

This concludes my forum post,
in the name of vBulletin,
a-DB-query.

 

[FaerieB]

I think you will find the good coders at vBulletin are actually the ones who made it possible for you to ignore rational thought.

Look, they even have their own bible : http://www.amazon.co.uk/vBulletin-U...1671/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301323084&sr=8-1

This concludes my forum post,
in the name of vBulletin,
a-DB-query.

They can't hear you ... they're not in a the moment ... they're all too busy playing one of the visible/invisible games x

 

[mobyme]

Eermm, I seem to recall somebody suggesting that you all stop goading a certain person about 300 posts ago as it was obvious that you were dealing with someone immersed in a cult doctrine. Why the change of heart now and why in concert; it's all slightly reminiscent of the school playground, ostracising the kid who is different.

 

[DCE]

I think you will find the good coders at vBulletin are actually the ones who made it possible for you to ignore rational thought.

Look, they even have their own bible : http://www.amazon.co.uk/vBulletin-U...1671/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1301323084&sr=8-1

This concludes my forum post,
in the name of vBulletin,
a-DB-query.

Jeff it takes the individual, to take action, and tick the box, that's the difference, the fact the facility was there, vbulletin has no control over their actions would you agree.

 

[cjd]

Eermm, I seem to recall somebody suggesting that you all stop goading a certain person about 300 posts ago as it was obvious that you were dealing with someone immersed in a cult doctrine.

Triumph of hope over reason I suppose.

Why the change of heart now and why in concert; it's all slightly reminiscent of the school playground, ostracising the kid who is different.

Because we've all just found the 'ignore' feature. I've been here 6 years and never had a need for it before.

I'm happy to 'un-ignore' as soon as he promises to take part in a debate (ie read what people post and stop preaching) - but it's obvious that he can't and won't do that, so I suspect he's gone for good as far as I'm concerned.

 

[DCE]

Eermm, I seem to recall somebody suggesting that you all stop goading a certain person about 300 posts ago as it was obvious that you were dealing with someone immersed in a cult doctrine. Why the change of heart now and why in concert; it's all slightly reminiscent of the school playground, ostracising the kid who is different.

Its a a text book, example of a Control Freak

•a person who obsessively insists on always being in control of the situation.

I met many, when I was in the Military, they couldn't converse unless they were totally in control, of everyone around them, and the centre of attention, sad really.

Also many philosophers and scientists have no qualms about boldly proclaiming their views. "Our enemy is God," some outspoken atheists have declared. "Hatred of God is the beginning of wisdom, they say.

So they replace God with their flawed wisdom, as we can see from there attitude.

"There exists a way that is upright before a man," said King Solomon, "but the ways of death are the end of it afterward." (Proverbs 16:25)

This is a warning against false reasoning and the pursuit of a course opposed to divine law.

A certain path may seem right from a fleshly standpoint but may really be against the righteous principles of God's Word.

Moreover, Satan may promote such deception so that a person is urged along in a course he believes to be right, whereas it actually leads to death.

God's wisdom leads to everlasting life, because of the Ransom price Jesus paid with his life.

 

[bdw]

This message is hidden because DCE is on your ignore list.

^ DCE this is what we are seeing if you are curious ^

Feel free to ignore me in retaliation or turn the other cheek if you like.

it's all slightly reminiscent of the school playground, ostracising the kid who is different.

Are you a sympathiser or a JW? :|

.

 

[Parthelan]

Eermm, I seem to recall somebody suggesting that you all stop goading a certain person about 300 posts ago as it was obvious that you were dealing with someone immersed in a cult doctrine. Why the change of heart now and why in concert; it's all slightly reminiscent of the school playground, ostracising the kid who is different.

I can see your point Mobyme, but in fairness, many have been resisting the urge to give up on him, and try and get him to answer questions, and think critically about the evil cult he is in, and participate engagingly in some way, rather than just spout his cultish ramblings, regardless of what was said.
He clearly refused to read anything put to him, and actually said he wouldnt read ideas contra to his ideology and cults beliefs as they were the work of Satan.
There's just no point in acknowledging anyone like that. Others were trying to have a discussion, he was trying to proselytize for the jehovah's witnesses and nothing else. I wonder if he and his overseers gave him permission to proselytize here instead of going door to door, and he fills his little card in every week with xxx hours of missionary work on UKBF and they sign it off, and tell him what a good boy he is. Either way, it's wrong.
I just sincerely hope, for the good of all those he comes in contact with, he uses the same techniques - that way people will see right through him pretty quickly and not fall for his cults soul destroying tactics.

But as I said before, 150 years or so of existance, billions of pamphlets of thrash and Bibles published, billions of hours evangelising, and millions of door knockers, and the best they can do is 7 million members across the whole of the world.
God is indeed protecting his Church from this evil cult and their bidders.

 

[FaerieB]

DCE doesn't ignore me :| ... in fact he's even suck fleas on me :| x

 

[MASSEY]

It's all about keeping on the watch Massey.

(Matthew 25:13) 13*“Keep on the watch, therefore, because YOU know neither the day nor the hour.

Good advice, don't you think?

You clearly admit there that the leader of the cult that tells you what to think and do got it wrong.

"good advice don't you think"

No not really. If you want to spend your whole life hoping the sky turns red that's up to you. But deep down you know that is not going to happen. Your happy to gather with other members of your cult and rub your knee's over the thought of it, but that is because you and your associates have a very strange outlook on life.

 

[bdw]

Awwwww come on guys! If you start quoting DCE I get to read what he has written again. PUhhhhlllleeeeeeeese!

.

 

[DCE]

You clearly admit there that the leader of the cult that tells you what to think and do got it wrong.

"good advice don't you think"

No not really. If you want to spend your whole life hoping the sky turns red that's up to you. But deep down you know that is not going to happen. Your happy to gather with other members of your cult and rub your knee's over the thought of it, but that is because you and your associates have a very strange outlook on life.

The Bible is the authority we look to, it is the word of God, which said, keep on the watch, not any man.

Sorry Massey you could not be further from the truth, it may be your perception, but you are totally wrong about how we feel deep down inside.

Every prophecy the Bible contained has been fulfilled right on time, so we have no doubt that all the others will be also fulfilled, in fact it's guaranteed.

Would you send your only begotten son Jesus Christ to die for the whole of mankind, and not carry out, what the purpose of it, was for?

What a incredulous thought to have.

 

[Subbynet]

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

 

[mobyme]

Are you a sympathiser or a JW? :|

.

A typical response from someone who hasn't added a single line of original thought to the entire thread.

 

[bdw]

A typical response from someone who hasn't added a single line of original thought to the entire thread.

Ah, you mean original thought like your pal DCE? Sorry, I am not very good at this cutting and pasting lark.

Wanna ask me a question?

.

 

[FaerieB]

Did anyone just watch Mrs Browns Sons x

 

[mobyme]

Ah, you mean original thought like your pal DCE? Sorry, I am not very good at this cutting and pasting lark.

Wanna ask me a question?

.

I only ask questions of people who I believe would know the answer or whose opinion I would be interested in.

 

[bdw]

Really, you seem to be taking an unnatural interest in my contributions?

Other than trolling and dishing out insults do you have anything useful to contribute to the thread?

.

 

[DCE]

But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.

There have been some over the years, who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but their are others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true.

They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event.

Jehovah's Witnesses, do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from God and that in this sense they are prophesying in God's name, hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets, but in their human fallibility, that they have misinterpreted matters.

Human nature is such that when we fervently hope and yearn for something and wait in eager expectation of it, a powerful temptation arises within us to see it at the door even when the evidence is insufficient.

In our eagerness false alarms may have been sounded, but that does not mean it is not going to happen, the evidence is more apparent then ever before.

(2 Timothy 3:1-5) 3 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2*For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3*having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4*betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5*having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

 

[Parthelan]

This is a fun interlude

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE

So whats the next topic, how about the historical jesus, whats the evidence?

Good question that got lost in the banter.

Just bumping it for tomorrow so I can find it easier.

 

[Subbynet]

There have been some over the years, who make spectacular predictions of the world’s end to grab attention and a following, but their are others are sincerely convinced that their proclamations are true.

They are voicing expectations based on their own interpretation of some scripture text or physical event.

Exactly, spectacular or mediocre, they "presume" to speak for God, when God has not asked them to speak. It matters not what they "just believe", for they can also read what it asks of them... Their interpretation of "which I have not commanded him to speak" is surely no different to anyone else - but they've chosen to ignore it in their haste.

Jehovah's Witnesses, do not claim that their predictions are direct revelations from God and that in this sense they are prophesying in God's name, hence, in such cases, when their words do not come true, they should not be viewed as false prophets, but in their human fallibility, that they have misinterpreted matters.

Which is even worse. Where did this revelation come from? Possibly another God , but certainly from the mouths of mere humans. Once is a mistake, but twice is attempt to proclaim something true when your expectations shouldn't be so high due to the first failing.

JW's have made many predictions, not just once, or twice, or three times... Human fallibility comes about when you have no other choice and are making the best choice based on the information you have, but JW's have other choices, they know the "other interpretations", but they choose to push "their interpretation" above others.

Who commanded them to speak?

Human nature is such that when we fervently hope and yearn for something and wait in eager expectation of it, a powerful temptation arises within us to see it at the door even when the evidence is insufficient.

In our eagerness false alarms may have been sounded, but that does not mean it is not going to happen, the evidence is more apparent then ever before.

Which is even more reason to beware of humans. Some are simple beings, who lack the knowledge of a basic education and reasoning, and who wish for things that evidence does not borne out to be true. They can also be extremely narcissistic...

Who do you follow if not man, for you like others have not waited for God to command you to speak. You speak and spread the word of your own belief.

Yet, we can go from this, to the next breath you're quoting Timothy. I ask why do you not accept your own advice? For you have clearly demonstrated that you know the risks of your actions, but you push forth with such actions anyway.

May I ask, under who's authority do you think you act? None - its like you said, its YOUR eagerness that drives you, not God. You, as another mere man, another false prophet.

(2 Timothy 3:1-5)

3 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2*For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3*having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4*betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5*having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.

Please tell me a moment in history were this wasn't true? If this is a prediction, it should have happened by now, because its been true every day since it was written, and certainly for the last 2000 years (or around 730,000 days).... So which day do you think it will actually come?

Do you think its wise to keep dangling this carrot of impending doom when you have no evidence for it to be actually borne out, and have not been commanded to speak of it, and by speaking of it you risk the wrath of God.

 

[Parthelan]

The other issue it's important not to lose sight of, is the watchtower and the governing body were not speaking as individuals, fired up with zeal looking forward to the tribulation - they were speaking as the official mouthpiece of God, as that is their self appointed title. God speaks officially throught the watchtower according to their deluded cults beliefs.

Proof positive they cannot and do not speak for God - because they have been wrong so many times. Just a pity jehovahs witnesses wont ask themselves what else their cult is wrong about.

 

[Consistency]

Parthelan, if you were as interested in praising the Lord and discovering him for yourself and reading your own bible thus getting a grip rather than concentrating so much on doing down the Jehovas Witnesses, you just may well find peace.

You will not sort yourself out by what you see as sorting out others.

 

[cjd]

Can someone please explain to me why the Lord needs praising (without quoting any biblical bollox)

 

[DCE]

Exactly, spectacular or mediocre, they "presume" to speak for God, when God has not asked them to speak. It matters not what they "just believe", for they can also read what it asks of them... Their interpretation of "which I have not commanded him to speak" is surely no different to anyone else - but they've chosen to ignore it in their haste.

Which is even worse. Where did this revelation come from? Possibly another God , but certainly from the mouths of mere humans. Once is a mistake, but twice is attempt to proclaim something true when your expectations shouldn't be so high due to the first failing.

JW's have made many predictions, not just once, or twice, or three times... Human fallibility comes about when you have no other choice and are making the best choice based on the information you have, but JW's have other choices, they know the "other interpretations", but they choose to push "their interpretation" above others.

Who commanded them to speak?

Which is even more reason to beware of humans. Some are simple beings, who lack the knowledge of a basic education and reasoning, and who wish for things that evidence does not borne out to be true. They can also be extremely narcissistic...

Who do you follow if not man, for you like others have not waited for God to command you to speak. You speak and spread the word of your own belief.

Yet, we can go from this, to the next breath you're quoting Timothy. I ask why do you not accept your own advice? For you have clearly demonstrated that you know the risks of your actions, but you push forth with such actions anyway.

May I ask, under who's authority do you think you act? None - its like you said, its YOUR eagerness that drives you, not God. You, as another mere man, another false prophet.

Please tell me a moment in history were this wasn't true? If this is a prediction, it should have happened by now, because its been true every day since it was written, and certainly for the last 2000 years (or around 730,000 days).... So which day do you think it will actually come?

Do you think its wise to keep dangling this carrot of impending doom when you have no evidence for it to be actually borne out, and have not been commanded to speak of it, and by speaking of it you risk the wrath of God.

Subbynet what are you an Atheist, Catholic, Orthodox, are you affiliated with any Church?

Because you don't seem to know, what it is to be a footstep follower of Christ, and what he commanded, his disciples to do?

Certainly not to carry a message of doom, as you say.

I think you are confused my friend, what true Christianity represents.

 

[Parthelan]

Parthelan, if you were as interested in praising the Lord and discovering him for yourself and reading your own bible thus getting a grip rather than concentrating so much on doing down the Jehovas Witnesses, you just may well find peace.

You will not sort yourself out by what you see as sorting out others.

I am perfectly sorted.

I dont need to ''discover'' the Lord - that's what bible bashing fundamentalists do.

The jehovah's witnesses are not a religion, they are a cult.

If you cared for DCE as you claim, you would be doing all you can to help his see he is following a cult, and help him break free before it's too late.

 

[Parthelan]

Can someone please explain to me why the Lord needs praising (without quoting any biblical bollox)

He doesnt need praising. It's a natural response from those who have a faith to recognise God and His Majesty. Just as the queen of this country doesnt need people to courtsy and bow, they do, out of respect for her position. Same mentality.

 

[Subbynet]

Subbynet what are you an Atheist, Catholic, Orthodox, are you affiliated with any Church?

Because you don't seem to know, what it is to be a footstep follower of Christ, and what he commanded, his disciples to do?

Certainly not to carry a message of doom, as you say.

I think you are confused my friend, what true Christianity represents.

I'm not confused DCE. It didn't take you so many hours to form this reply because of my confusion. This is your confusion, a problem of adhering to a faith that contradicts itself on so many levels. For the record, I'm an Atheist, who was brought up in the Catholic faith.

I know exactly what Jesus asked them to do.

Matthew 28:16-20 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now, as we can read, this is a direct command from Jesus (God) to spread the true word of the Bible... But where is your command DCE? Your faith is no long united, its fractured along many lines, with the real truth hidden in history... So where is your command to speak your interpretation DCE?

John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Yet, you do not follow this commandment do you DCE? Would you kill someone in the name of God?

Deuteronomy 17:12 - The man who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God must be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.

You do not kill Gay's do you DCE?Yet the Bible states such..

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

We as a Christian nation don't put these people to death - do we...

Exodus 21:15 - Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

I think you are confused my friend, what true Christianity represents.

Very confused... But not as confused as those who follow this religion, for they do not follow the word of God, but that of man - who they then try justify in the name of God.

 

[DCE]

I'm not confused DCE. It didn't take you so many hours to form this reply because of my confusion. This is your confusion, a problem of adhering to a faith that contradicts itself on so many levels. For the record, I'm an Atheist, who was brought up in the Catholic faith.

I know exactly what Jesus asked them to do.

Matthew 28:16-20 - Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

Now, as we can read, this is a direct command from Jesus (God) to spread the true word of the Bible... But where is your command DCE? Your faith is no long united, its fractured along many lines, with the real truth hidden in history... So where is your command to speak your interpretation DCE?

John 4:1 - Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Yet, you do not follow this commandment do you DCE? Would you kill someone in the name of God?

Deuteronomy 17:12 - The man who shows contempt for the judge or for the priest who stands ministering there to the LORD your God must be put to death. You must purge the evil from Israel.

You do not kill Gay's do you DCE?Yet the Bible states such..

Leviticus 20:13 - If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives."

We as a Christian nation don't put these people to death - do we...

Exodus 21:15 - Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.

Very confused... But not as confused as those who follow this religion, for they do not follow the word of God, but that of man - who they then try justify in the name of God.

Your even more confused than I thought?

God gave the Ten Commandments to the people that were known as Israelites.

In his opening words, he made clear that it was to this one nation he spoke: “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.”

This indicates that the Ten Commandments were designed to be part of a national law code, with 600 others—Exodus 20:2.

However, were the Ten Commandments of such universal nature that they would always be in force and apply also to non-Israelites?

No. Centuries later when the Christian congregation was formed, this Law code was not passed on to it.

Why?

Because the Bible says that “Christ is the end of the Law.” (Romans 10:4)

So Subbynet what did it mean that “Christ is the end of the Law.” (Romans 10:4)

 

[Subbynet]

Your even more confused than I thought?

Am I, or are you the confused one DCE?....

God gave the Ten Commandments to the people that were known as Israelites.

Lets not mess around DCE - if you wish to be literal, then I'm going to say God has given no one alive today any commands... Hence, you're all interpreting based on what you believe - not what God has told us.

Many believe these commands were not just for the Israelites, and really you cannot state that God should or would treat these people any different from other "believers"... So they're clearly part of God's law, not national law - it just so happens that these people are one in the same - part of a nation, and devoted to God.

In his opening words, he made clear that it was to this one nation he spoke: “I am Jehovah your God, who have brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slaves.”

This indicates that the Ten Commandments were designed to be part of a national law code, with 600 others—Exodus 20:2.

"Indicates"... Sounds like an interpretation again..

It does not indicate national law - I mean for "heavens sake" it was spoke by God, it says to me God's commandments are above national law - and if God was to set the laws of this world these are the type of laws he would lay down.

Some are pretty sickening - and ones you would never agree to live under yourself. Slavery is ok for example... A God would allow someone else - even from another nation or faith to be a slave? What sort of God is this?

However, were the Ten Commandments of such universal nature that they would always be in force and apply also to non-Israelites?

No. Centuries later when the Christian congregation was formed, this Law code was not passed on to it.

Why?

Because the Bible says that “Christ is the end of the Law.” (Romans 10:4)

Rubbish - the Ten Commandments - out of ALL the commandments are the ones universal in nature! So from all these commandments, surely these ten were above national law even if you accept that as a true argument.

It doesn't say that in Romans 10:4 DCE... Let me quote it to you...

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

This means you must follow God, just like the thousand and one other ways its said in the Bible. God spoke of his laws, the type of laws he would lay down.. You cannot answer the reason you do not live like this can you... You say you follow God, but you do not follow God, as you just proved, you were happy to let those who God spoken too to live in a different way to yourself.

Plus, the Bible is FULL of these commands... You ignore so many and live a different life to these people...

You are a false prophet, speaking of a God which you state is loving, but is clearly hateful towards certain people, and scathing in his condemnation.

 

[Parthelan]

Yet, you do not follow this commandment do you DCE? Would you kill someone in the name of God?

Regretably, yes he would. And jehovah's witnesses have killed many in the name of their god with their twisting of scripture.

So many innocent souls have died needlessly because of their stance on blood transfusion. And even this is a made up doctrine - it didnt come into being until 1944!

'Not only as a descendant of Noah, but now also as one bound by God's law to Israel which incorporated the everlasting covenant regarding the sanctity of life-sustaining blood, the stranger was forbidden to eat or drink blood, whether by transfusion or by the mouth.

The Watchtower. Dec 1,1944 (Vol 65, No 23, p1362).

Here's what a christian doctor had to say after researching a paper on this cults members:

However, the one thing that has really struck me whilst researching this article is that the real tragedy is not whether a Jehovah Witness's stand on blood transfusions may shorten their earthly life but the fact that its misguided scriptural basis may well ruin their prospects of eternal life.
Whilst as doctors we will have an obligation, as with all our patients, to treat them sensitively respecting their viewpoints, as Christians we have an even greater obligation to challenge them to re-examine the Scriptures.

Deuteronomy 14:21 would initially seem to contradict the Genesis position, stating as it does that an Israelite could sell the undrained carcass of an animal to a Gentile. However, that is not necessarily the case 'if the Noahic Covenant is seen as superseded by the Old Covenant. The Society itself states:
`... After Jesus died, true worshippers were no longer obliged to keep the Mosaic law.' (Rom 6:14, 10:4, Col 2:13,14). 9
thereby implying that they are no longer bound by the dietary restrictions of Leviticus and negating their own argument (as regards Lv 17:11-14). In any case Leviticus 17:11-14 clearly refers to the blood of sacrificial animals, requiring the death of the animal, in contrast to blood transfusion where the donor retains their life.
The blood shed in such sacrifices was sacred, epitomising the life of the sacrificial victim, and therefore had to be treated with respect. The blood of the sacrifices pointed forward to the blood of the Lamb of God, who obtained for his people `eternal redemption' (Heb 9:12)for `without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness'. (Heb 9:22)
Also, both Genesis 9:4 and Leviticus 17:11-14 relate to the blood of animals and birds and bear no reference to human blood, or indeed to that of fish which, interestingly, is not prohibited by Witnesses.
The final reference which the Society uses to justify its position is Acts 15:20,29, where the Jerusalem Council instructs believers to abstain from...blood'. The Society argues that this prohibition is a permanent injunction to all Christians against taking blood into their body in any form. Once again however there is no suggestion that the Bible is referring to human, as well as to animal, blood. Also this is clearly an edict to do with peace between Jews and Gentiles in a specific situation where the Jews were particularly repulsed by what they saw as the Gentiles' violations of Divine directives. In this instance the Gentiles were merely obeying rules which they did not perceive as necessary to obtain salvation simply in order to increase the chances of the Jews becoming believers. As Paul says, for the sake of the Gospel, `I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some' (1 Cor 9:19-23).

This highlights tragically the deadly consequences, corporally and spiritually, of deciding on a pick and mix approach to scripture like DCE does, and then personally interpreting it. Well, he doesnt, he just follows what he's told.

I wonder where they think the souls are of those that took transfusions in 1940, and died later, are - since they hadnt made up their transfusion doctrine by then - one minute you can have a transfusion, next minute you cant????

That was one of the 70 or so questions I asked him before, and he wouldnt answer. But good luck getting an answer out of him if you can.

 

[MASSEY]

The other issue it's important not to lose sight of, is the watchtower and the governing body were not speaking as individuals, fired up with zeal looking forward to the tribulation - they were speaking as the official mouthpiece of God, as that is their self appointed title. God speaks officially throught the watchtower according to their deluded cults beliefs.

Proof positive they cannot and do not speak for God - because they have been wrong so many times. Just a pity jehovahs witnesses wont ask themselves what else their cult is wrong about.

Your right they were speaking as the mouth peice of God, but DCE seems to be happy as larry to forgive this. WE all are aware that being part of cults like this affects your mental state of mind. I feel sorry a little for DCE as he seems to have been brain washed good and proper. He must have been around in the very early days of the false religion.

 

[stockdam]

There appears to be a basic misunderstanding of the differences and applicability of the Mosaic Laws (Old Covenant) and the New Covenant.

Here's a simple account of some of the differences.


http://www.biblestudy.org/beginner/basic-differences-between-old-and-new-covenants.html

 

[MASSEY]

This made me laugh.

The Top 20 Reasons you may be a Jehovah’s Witness;

20. You think that service to God can be measured in hours.
19. You see no problem with arguing that a loving god would never create a hell, while at the same time promoting the idea that this same god is about to mercilessly kill all non-JW human beings.
18. You believe that it is a example of love and kindness to visit with your grandchildren while forcing your ex-JW daughter to sit in the car outside.
17. You feel that it is ethical behavior to shun (rather than counsel) people in your religious group who have committed a sin.
16. You allow a corporation to take the place of God.
15. You think the spiritual center of God’s Kingdom is in New York City (you are either a stockbroker or a JW).
14. You are a male and your first reaction to a brief interruption of a meeting - by the entrance of a beautiful woman wearing a miniskirt - is “how immodest that woman is.”
13. You think it’s an act of unfaithfulness to God to get an education or a decent job.
12. You consider cleaning up a messy backyard to be practice for working in the “New System of Things on Paradise Earth”.
11. You feel that death is much more important than birth.
10. You believe that God ignored everyone for nearly 2,000 years, then suddenly gave His truth to a man who sat around drawing pictures and plans of pyramids.
9. You either wash cars, repair refrigerators, install flooring, or clean houses for a living - but still own at least five suits or dresses.
8. The word “apostate” makes you shiver in terror.
7. You see the title of “All Along the Watchtower” by Jimi Hendrix and you feel spiritually refreshed, but afraid to listen to the song.
6. You’re a 30 year old virgin and have never kissed anyone but your mom.
5. You believe that demons choose to reside in jewelry, furniture, china, books or blue smurfs.
4. You can’t pick up anything to read without also picking up something to underline or highlight with.
3. Your reaction to someone wearing a cross is the same as a vampire’s.
2. You can’t have a conversation with another human being without saying “Jehovah.”
… and the number one reason you might be a Jehovah’s Witness:

1. If you have ever reported a spouse to the elders for performing or requesting oral sex.

 

[DCE]

Am I, or are you the confused one DCE?....
Lets not mess around DCE - if you wish to be literal, then I'm going to say God has given no one alive today any commands... Hence, you're all interpreting based on what you believe - not what God has told us.

Many believe these commands were not just for the Israelites, and really you cannot state that God should or would treat these people any different from other "believers"... So they're clearly part of God's law, not national law - it just so happens that these people are one in the same - part of a nation, and devoted to God.

"Indicates"... Sounds like an interpretation again..

It does not indicate national law - I mean for "heavens sake" it was spoke by God, it says to me God's commandments are above national law - and if God was to set the laws of this world these are the type of laws he would lay down.

Some are pretty sickening - and ones you would never agree to live under yourself. Slavery is ok for example... A God would allow someone else - even from another nation or faith to be a slave? What sort of God is this?

Rubbish - the Ten Commandments - out of ALL the commandments are the ones universal in nature! So from all these commandments, surely these ten were above national law even if you accept that as a true argument.

It doesn't say that in Romans 10:4 DCE... Let me quote it to you...

Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

This means you must follow God, just like the thousand and one other ways its said in the Bible. God spoke of his laws, the type of laws he would lay down.. You cannot answer the reason you do not live like this can you... You say you follow God, but you do not follow God, as you just proved, you were happy to let those who God spoken too to live in a different way to yourself.

Plus, the Bible is FULL of these commands... You ignore so many and live a different life to these people...

You are a false prophet, speaking of a God which you state is loving, but is clearly hateful towards certain people, and scathing in his condemnation.

Check on these scriptures

(Romans 7:6) But now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

(Ephesians 2:15) By means of his flesh he abolished the enmity, the Law of commandments consisting in decrees, that he might create the two peoples in union with himself into one new man and make peace;

(Colossians 2:14) and blotted out the handwritten document against us, which consisted of decrees and which was in opposition to us; and He has taken it out of the way by nailing it to the torture stake.

The scriptures are talking about the end of Mosaic laws altogether, and a new covenant being created by Jesus Christ while he was on earth.

 

[stockdam]

This made me laugh.

The Top 20 Reasons you may be a Jehovah’s Witness;

Pretty sad that anyone finds it funny. It's obviously aimed at one person, active in this discussion. If you don't agree then fine just ignore him or whatever. What appears to be going on now is close to group bullying.

 

[Parthelan]

Pretty sad that anyone finds it funny. It's obviously aimed at one person, active in this discussion. If you don't agree then fine just ignore him or whatever. What appears to be going on now is close to group bullying.

Really? I didnt hear anyone speaking up when the catholic chuch was being slated for page after page, and there are catholic business people here.

Since DCE found out I was Orthodox most of his posts have included deriding the Orthodox church and her teaching. Prior to this all his derided was reserved for the catholic church. As far as I know Im the only orthodox active poster in this thread, so that was aimed at no-one else but me. I didnt hear anyone speaking up about that.

Telling someone who is in a cult, they are in a cult, is not bullying.

Besides, it's DCE that always insists on having the final word, starting things over again. There are numerous posts, page after page, where the convesation could have moved on, but no, DCE insisted on bringing it all back to make some completely unrelated point, while at the same time studiously refusing to answer the points and questions put to him. He always has the options to just let it rest, and let the conversation move on, but he never does.

I will readily admit Im given to polemic, and it doesnt come across properly on a forum; I'ts mostly for drama and (sometimes) comedy effect. It frequently fails, I know. However, I think most people are at some level or another very concerned for DCE being brainwashed as he is.

 

[cjd]

So this worshipping thing is completely optional - just a natural reaction in the presence and absence of power? and god couldn't give a hoot either way and has never requested it from his believers?

 

[Parthelan]

So this worshipping thing is completely optional - just a natural reaction in the presence and absence of power? and god couldn't give a hoot either way and has never requested it from his believers?

That's a bit different to what you asked about ''needing'' to be worshiped. God tells His believers in the OT He's a jealous God, not to have other gods. Brimstone and a plague of locusts to you if you dont obey.

The OT before the coming of Christ, was legalistic - the people of God did not have His Holy Spirit. It was about spelling things out.

After the coming of Christ, the focus was less on the law and more on the relationship people had with Christ, and the Holy Spirit. It was about loving the Lord with all your heart, mind, and soul and loving yorur neighbour as yourself. But you have the option to ignore. No smithing down dead in rage in the NT. It's about a loving relationship. If you love someone, it's natural to express it. There are of course, consequences for rejection, but we have control over that.

The legalise is at a minimum - all the sabath stuff thrown out the window - Jesus himself broke the sabath.

Thats the real message of the 7 day genesis creation story. Nothing to do with resting on the 7th day at all in light of the NT. The real message is God wont do everything - we have a huge role to play, in determining our destiny and what happens to us ultimately.