Picing for SEO ....ripped off????

[WhizzPeople]

I'm a SEO consultant and consider myself between Intermediate to Professional. If you are still looking for someone, I would be interested to give a try.

Your domain looks very new - only 3 weeks old. Working with a brand new domain need extra hard work and time. However, I would like to try for 3 months, £250 a month for 3 keyword phrases, £350 for upto 5 keyword phrases.

PM me if you are interested in my service.

 

[fisicx]

That isn't making a true comparison then, as you're talking about going
through the breadcrumbs rather than just direct linking.

Exactly. That's the whole reason for using a hierarchal directory structure - you end up with a family tree type thing with all the folders and sub folders all piled up.

Google will go to each index.html in turn and follow the links. When you get to the end of the chain as long as you have links back to the main sections of the site (not just the homepage), Google will follow the chain down the next leg of the site.

If you have a flat file system it makes building the internal navigation that much harder as you can't tell the system to 'go up one level'.

Nothing really magical about it, it's simply a logical site structure. But whether there is any SEO advantage I'm not convinced.

 

[DotNetWebs]

...Nothing really magical about it, it's simply a logical site structure. But whether there is any SEO advantage I'm not convinced...

It definitely makes for a better user experience but I would still like to know how a page in a virtual directory accompanied by an index page will out rank a root directory page (all other things being equal of course).

Regards

Dotty

 

[fisicx]

It definitely makes for a better user experience but I would still like to know how a page in a virtual directory accompanied by an index page will out rank a root directory page (all other things being equal of course).

I don't think it will. But that's just my opinion, not done any tests to prove it one way or another.

Set one up to link for a page with the keyword xc12ytncA and the other in a directory /xc12ytncB/index.html

Just put some loriet ipsum on the page each with a title and header for the tow keywords.... and wait....

Going to try this myself right now. I shall report back captain.

 

[DotNetWebs]

...Set one up to link for a page with the keyword xc12ytncA and the other in a directory /xc12ytncB/index.html

Just put some loriet ipsum on the page each with a title and header for the tow keywords.... and wait....

Going to try this myself right now. I shall report back captain.

Good stuff. I will wait to hear your report.

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

It definitely makes for a better user experience but I would still like to know how a page in a virtual directory accompanied by an index page will out rank a root directory page (all other things being equal of course).

Regards

Dotty

That's the whole point though,
It will be so much harder to make it equal using a flat site, hence it being
better for SEO to have a page in the directory instead.

imagine you have,
1. example.com/xjs.html
2. example.com/prestige/jaguar/xjs/

Doing it in the root means you have to also create /prestige.html and a
jaguar.html page to obtain the same linking structure

Doing it via the directory route it is far simpler to set up the linking structure
the xjs automatically gets links set up from the home directory, the prestige
directory, and the jaguar directory as you build the site.

We all agree it is easier doing it the 2nd way, and I dare say we all agree
linking structure is important for SEO, the 2nd way does both at the same
time far easier.

 

[fisicx]

Okey dokey. Pages are live, you can just see the links at the bottom of the homepage in my signature link.

I think they are pretty even - same titles, description and main header for each keyword and the content is identical so we shall wait and see.

 

[DotNetWebs]

That's the whole point though,
It will be so much harder to make it equal using a flat site, hence it being
better for SEO to have a page in the directory instead.

imagine you have,
1. example.com/xjs.html
2. example.com/prestige/jaguar/xjs/

Doing it in the root means you have to also create /prestige.html and a
jaguar.html page to obtain the same linking structure...

But the example I gave DOESN'T use the same linking structure e.g

which is better:

cars.com/XK60.html (this is linked to from the home page and is one of a 100 car.html pages in this directory

cars.com/prestige/jaguar/xk60.html ((this is linked to from the cars.com/prestige/jaguar/index.html and is one of a 5 car.html pages in this directory)

Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical.

Now if someone Googles "XK60 cars" which page will likely rank first?

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

But the example I gave DOESN'T use the same linking structure e.g

which is better:

cars.com/XK60.html (this is linked to from the home page and is one of a 100 car.html pages in this directory

cars.com/prestige/jaguar/xk60.html ((this is linked to from the cars.com/prestige/jaguar/index.html and is one of a 5 car.html pages in this directory)

Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical.

Now if someone Googles "XK60 cars" which page will likely rank first?

Regards

Dotty

Sorry, that doesn't make sense.
You say
"Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical."
Does that mean internallinks, external links, or both?

 

[DotNetWebs]

Okey dokey. Pages are live, you can just see the links at the bottom of the homepage in my signature link.

I think they are pretty even - same titles, description and main header for each keyword and the content is identical so we shall wait and see.

wow that was quick work - nice one!.

Although to prove the theory I would rather see both pages called xc12ytncA.html

e.g

aerin.co.uk/xc12ytncA.html (linked ONLY from the home page)

and

aerin.co.uk/test/xc12ytncA.html (linked ONLY from aerin.co.uk/test/index.html - you would of course have to link from the home page to the index page)

Regards

Dotty

 

[DotNetWebs]

ps I should say I have made lots of assumptions here based on my interpretation of what OWG said. He probably didn't mean that at all so it is probably all irrelevant!

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

Okey dokey. Pages are live, you can just see the links at the bottom of the homepage in my signature link.

I think they are pretty even - same titles, description and main header for each keyword and the content is identical so we shall wait and see.

You need to set up 3 additional tests

1. with the links other way around

and a copy of those 2 pages but ommiting the index.html

At the moment the test is loaded in favour of the first 1

 

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry, that doesn't make sense.
You say
"Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical."
Does that mean internallinks, external links, or both?

Sorry I meant ALL other links = both.

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

wow that was quick work - nice one!.

Although to prove the theory I would rather see both pages called xc12ytncA.html

e.g

aerin.co.uk/xc12ytncA.html (linked ONLY from the home page)

and

aerin.co.uk/test/xc12ytncA.html (linked ONLY from aerin.co.uk/test/index.html - you would of course have to link from the home page to the index page)

Regards

Dotty

Why are you saying "linked ONLY from aerin.co.uk/test/index.html" that is
where your whole comparison is flawed.

 

[DotNetWebs]

Why are you saying "linked ONLY from aerin.co.uk/test/index.html" that is
where your whole comparison is flawed.

No I am comparing against this statement:

"small groups of pages in folders each with its own index page"

This suggests that putting a file in a folder with an index page somehow has an advantage of putting a file in the root directory

To be a fair test of my previous example you would have to have a 100 other similar files in the root directory for test 'A' and 20 other directories containing an index file and 5 'similar' files for test 'B'.

Again I am only interpreting the above statement at face value

regards

Dotty

 

[DotNetWebs]

Hay OWG is on board

Please clarify what you meant by this:

"small groups of pages in folders each with its own index page"

Regards

Dotty

ps and are you implying an "index" page somehow carries more weight and that the number of pages in a [virtual] directory is somehow significant

 

[fisicx]

Getting confused here.

At the moment both pages have a direct link from the homepage. If I give them both the same name then google's just going to ignore one of them.

Are you suggesting that I need:

homepage > xc12ytncB/index.html > xc12ytncB/xc12ytncB.html

and

homepage > xc12ytncA.html

 

[UKSBD]

No I am comparing against this statement:

"small groups of pages in folders each with its own index page"

This suggests that putting a file in a folder with an index page somehow has an advantage of putting a file in the root directory

To be a fair test of my previous example you would have to have a 100 other similar files in the root directory for test a and 20 other directories containing an index file and 5 'similar' files for test be.

Again I am only interpreting the above statement at face value

regards

Dotty

I don't understand why you are you saying,
"linked ONLY from aerin.co.uk/test/index.html"

and why earlier you said,

"cars.com/XK60.html (this is linked to from the home page and is one of a 100 car.html pages in this directory"

"cars.com/prestige/jaguar/xk60.html ((this is linked to from the cars.com/prestige/jaguar/index.html and is one of a 5 car.html pages in this directory)"

Why not link the homepage direct to the target page?

 

[DotNetWebs]

..Are you suggesting that I need:

No I wasn't. Lets wait for OWG to reply since this is rather academic at the moment.

Regards

Dotty

ps sorry for confusing!

 

[UKSBD]

Getting confused here.

At the moment both pages have a direct link from the homepage. If I give them both the same name then google's just going to ignore one of them.

Are you suggesting that I need:

homepage > xc12ytncB/index.html > xc12ytncB/xc12ytncB.html

and

homepage > xc12ytncA.html

It will be impossible to know anything by just running one test, you would
have to run a number of siilar tests.
For instance, changing the order of the links, also linking to / rather than
index.html

 

[fisicx]

It will be impossible to know anything by just running one test, you would
have to run a number of siilar tests.
For instance, changing the order of the links, also linking to / rather than
index.html

I understand - but keeping it simple just for now I'll run three tests:

1. Link to text page1.

2. Link to /keyword/index.html to test page2.

3. Link to /keyword/ then to test page3.

No reason why we can't expand on this later. If the results are inconclusive.

<added>Doh! All the test pages need the same keyword otherwise how can we compare!</added>

 

[DotNetWebs]

...Why not link the homepage direct to the target page?...

Because the implication in that statement is it better for SEO for the website to have a tree like structure (without every branch being connected directly to the root)

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

I understand - but keeping it simple just for now I'll run three tests:

1. Link to text page1.

2. Link to /keyword/index.html to test page2.

3. Link to /keyword/ then to test page3.

No reason why we can't expand on this later. If the results are inconclusive.

2. Link to /keyword/index.html to test page2.

3. Link to /keyword/ then to test page3.

That might hinder both those pages and give 1. an advantage

Leave it at that for now though, but it will need a lot more testing to get
a conclusive result

 

[UKSBD]

Because the implication in that statement is it better for SEO for the website to have a tree like structure (without every branch being connected directly to the root)

Regards

Dotty

Sorry, I can't see where you implied that from

 

[DotNetWebs]

Sorry, I can't see where you implied that from

What is the point of having all you files in folders, each containing an index file linking to them, if you are then going to link from the home page as well?

Regards

Dotty

 

[fisicx]

We are #1 for xc12ytncA!

OK the test pages have been tweaked and are online. The site was last crawled on 19 Aug so it might be worth starting a new thread in a couple of week once google has got it's act together.

 

[DotNetWebs]

We are #1 for xc12ytncA!.

Good work!

Who said SEO was hard work

Regards

Dotty

 

[UKSBD]

What is the point of having all you files in folders, each containing an index file linking to them, if you are then going to link from the home page as well?

Regards

Dotty

Ease of use.

What is the difference between linking

Home > /XK60.html
Home > /prestige/jaguar/xk60/

You can't say,

"Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical."

If example one has a link from the homepage and example 2 doesn't.
It makes the comparrison flawed.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Hi All, just got back from Cadbury's world. I will try and explain what i meant by my earlier comments.

First off, apologies for the hastily drawn graphic

Site structure. In its simples form when building a site think of how you build a house of cards (HOC) (bad analogy I know, but structure wise it is right)

Say there was a house of cards, 3 on the bottom then 2 with 1 little triangle on top. If you asked people to point at the most important triangle, they point to the top one! (1) fig 'A'

Now hold that thought, build another identical HOC next to it (2) . We now have TWO equally important triangles, 1 at the top of each HOC.

NOW imagine you placed a piece of rigid card between them, and built another HOC between the two, but only one single triangle (3). So now you have 2 HOC's supporting the one above it. fig'B'

NOW when asked to point to the most important one, you ignore the two you previously pointed to, and immediately point to the one at the very top.

Take it further and add more single triangles below (3) but with no triangles below them fig'C' . Now point to the triangles in order of importance, and you will think that 3 is the most important followed by 1&2, probably followed by the triangles with no numbers, and lastly, 4.5.6 &7.

Same with well structured sites. Each HOC represents a folder, each of those card that built the HOC represent web pages on the topic. The page at the top of each HOC is the most important for that topic (index page where all the other pages in the folder link to.)

Pages within the folder will cross link with each other, but rarely with pages in other folders, but ALWAYS to the index page of their folder, and the main site index page making IT the most important on the theme of the site.

This is what creates the correct hierarchy within the site, it is how link juice flows within the site, and it helps to sub niche areas within your site. AND, once you become an authority for a phrase, it will be the main index pages that become your sitelinks on a Google SERP

Now if your site is about cars. and uyou have a folder for each manufacturer, and within that folder you have models, and below them you have repairing / history/ photographs etc. Then the page the search engines return might be the homepage of the folder that houses all that information about the XJS, BECAUSE it is in a folder about jaguar, and is cross lnking within that folder conrtextually to semantically related pages.

This WAS to be a blog post, but looks like I have just scuppered my doing that I might blog it though and then link from here.)

 

[OldWelshGuy]

I made my post while you lot were posting, so apologies if it crosses over.

 

[fisicx]

Hi All, just got back from Cadbury's world.

Mmmmm, chocolate....

 

[OldWelshGuy]

Mmmmm, chocolate....

You haven't lived until you have eaten a polystyrene cupful of chocccy direct from the pump all warm and yummy x 100

 

[DotNetWebs]

Hi OWG

Many thanks for this detailed reply to my question. I will digest it and reply later after I have put the little one to bed!

Regards

Dotty

 

[OldWelshGuy]

it is a little rushed, so might not be 100%. No problem though, just point out any innacuracies and i will go back in and edit them under cover of darkness (joke)

 

[DotNetWebs]

...You can't say,

"Both pages are identical and all other links pointing to them are identical."

If example one has a link from the homepage and example 2 doesn't.
It makes the comparrison flawed.

It makes perfect sense if you read the sentence correctly.

In the post where I first wrote this sentence I have shown that both pages are the same file, the only difference between them is there physical location within the directory structure.

The keyword you are missing is OTHER. All internal or external links OTHER than two I mentioned in the post would point to their respective pages.

That leaves the very thing we are trying to measure: the fact that, as you put it, "example one has a link from the homepage and example 2 doesn't"

Far from being flawed it's the very thing we are trying to measure!

This is not really relevant now anyway because OWG has kindly clarified his statement. i.e it is not so much the [small] number of links in his folders that are significant. It is more to do with the relevance of the neighboring semantically related files within their shared folder and importantly their common index file within that folder. That index file in turn having a vital place in the site structure.

Regards

Dotty

 

[DotNetWebs]

OWG thanks again for your detailed example.

I can see how that structure would be the ideal one to try and implement. Practicably for me it has not always been possible to achieve the ideal due to other constraints.

For example in the Visit Horsham site in my signature I was obliged to create a relational database and subsequent directory structure based on an existing paper directory of the businesses involved. This is less than ideal for SEO purposes and I am gradually moving from the paper guide leading the website to the website leading the paper guide.

The whole site structure is generated dynamically from the database and the database structure itself is constantly evolving. Because of this we have deliberately taken the decision place the businesses in [virtual] directories OUTSIDE their parent categories.

e.g a jewellery store page is currently accessed from several 'parent' pages in the site:

http://www.visithorsham.co.uk/Zone/Orange.aspx (the area)

http://www.visithorsham.co.uk/Location/West_Street.aspx (the street)

http://www.visithorsham.co.uk/Category/Jewellers.aspx (the category)

Now all of the above can (and do occasionally) change.

e.g the store might move to a different area or street. You might think that the category won't change but prior to in being in the Jewellers category it was in something like "jewellery_and_gifts.aspx" (from the printed guide - this is one of the ones we changed for the web)

Anyway the point of all this, because of the constantly evolving site structure all business pages are placed in a "business" directory.

So the jewellers in question is found at:

visithorsham.co.uk/Business/Wakefields_Jewellers.aspx (the breadcrumbs will reflect the referring page)

Anything in the 'parent' structure can change but that page will always remain the same (unless the business name changes of course but that's another story!).

The reason for this off course is that the SERPs / PR is not lost with any structure change.

The result of all this is that ALL our businesses are in the same virtual directory. That is why I took such an interest in your statement. As it stands I think this is the best option for us. A more rigid structure would be too inflexible. I am very grateful to you for enlightening with your thoughts.

I hope it doesn't put you off blogging about it because it would make a great reference piece.

Regards

Dotty

 

[fisicx]

Ok, for those of you who have been here already you will know about the test I set up. If it's all a mystery, head back to page 9.

Google has got it's arse in gear and now indexed most of the test pages. I then had a message from UKSBD and it seems that we see different things.

A UK only search for "This is a test page resulting from a suggestion made" (including quotes) and I see nothing but he sees the C page even though the phrase is on all test pages.

Can you do a check on the above and might as well do a check on: xc12ytncA, xc12ytncB, xc12ytncC while we're about it.

Ta very much.

 

[UKSBD]

Every search I do shows C as being the stronger page.

But the test was flawed as the pages are not the same, a search for
xc12ytncC also shows xc12ytncC/seo.htm in the SERPS, even though it
just goes to an error page "Gone fishin"

Another interesting thing is the fact you used an uppercase C in the directory
a search for xc12ytncC returns different results than a search for xc12ytncc
(on my system anyway)

 

I have read though the whole post, and still not sure what is trying to be proved. We seem to be making comparisions of links on a single domain, when really we should be compairing them to the competitions domains.

To say that www.abc.com/cars/ is better than www.def.com/cars.htm is massively simplifying the process google goes through to rank pages. Google just does not work like that.

If you have three pages www.abc.com/cars / www.abc.com/cars.htm / www.abc.com/cars.asp or what ever you can pick which one you want to be the top one in that single domain, using the priority referance in the sitemap protocol.

If you really really study google, then it is possible to understand exactly why the domain for your keyword is top, I mean why when you put 'cars' in google that www.abc.com is top and not www.def.com. It is just not has simple as the URL or domain name.

G

 

[jimbo1974]

With those keywords it should be easy to get to Google page 1 for at least a couple of them. Leather seating maybe not but the Derby ones yes. You just need to re-write your content well, and make sure your pages are nicely structured.