Teacher in Mohammed Teddybear situation

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Sally@CC

  • #144
    ken_uk said:
    So as a muslim, your saying you think its fine for another muslim to live in Britain, and support & fund terrorist groups. Its fine for them to call for the execution of westerners.
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    Sorry to take so long to get back to this. NO I am mot saying any such thing, it is wrong to call for the death of anyone and Islam states very clearly that you must abide by the laws of the country you live in.

    ken_uk said:
    Its fine for them to have detailed bomb making books, poison making books, terrorism guides, and manuals for sniper rifles etc?
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    Oh please, there are millions of people, from all faiths and no faith, that download rubbish like that. Nazi's hold rally's in this country, agreed to by the police and hand out leaflets about killing Jews - that is the price we pay for our freedom of speach but until they make an attempt to kill anybody they have not actually 'done' anything.

    ken_uk said:
    Just because she has not actually done anything other than try to pay money to a terrorist group, offer help to terrorist groups, and has compiled a large amount of information that has only one use, but not used that info yet she should not be imprisoned, she has not really done anything wrong?
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    My gripe isn't about Muslims or non Muslims, it is about living in a country that now arrests people for 'thought crimes'.

    ken_uk said:
    Do any other muslims you know of have this sort of information (terrorism manuals etc) is it common?
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    I know lots of young people that read them and shout about the taliban etc but when I suggest I will buy them a plane ticket to Afghanistan they tend to go quiet. That is what young people do, they rebel and generally have bugger all idea what they are rebelling against or getting into. What I doubt is whether any of them will ever do more than rant on the internet about it.

    ken_uk said:
    What should the courts do? Let her go, and assume she is just collecting all this for fun, and hope she does not use any of it, or help others to use it?
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    Does not use what? You can't actually poison anyone with a book about poisons, neither can you cut out pictures of a gun and shoot someone. If anything had been found that she could use to physically hurt someone then I would say lock her up and throw away the key.

    My answer to the problem of this fanatical brainwashing where they have not physically done anything, is a boot camp run by Muslim scholars to reverse the brainwashing.

    ken_uk said:
    What would happen if a UK person went to a muslim country and called for the execution of muslims, and had detailed bomb making info, funded terrorism etc - would they be so forgiving or would they behead them? If you get jailed for naming a teddy bear, imagine what would happen if they caught a person from the uk in the same situation as the muslim lady in question........
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    This particular argument always really annoys me. Everyone in the West shouts about how these Muslim countries need to become civilised and become more westernised, then as soon as there is an issue like this it soon turns into 'what would happen in Sudan or Saudi'. When did two wrongs make a right? If we want them to become more educated and civilised then why should we expect them to already be so??
     
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    Sally@CC

  • #145
    I vote A this is totally nuts.

    I am always the first to jump on my soap box and ask what Muslims are doing about these crazy things, so was delighted that Muslims have taken it upon themselves to go over there and try to sort this insanity out. I hope they can bring her back today.

    It was interesting to note that this happened so soon after the UK stated it wanted sanctions against Sudan!!

    By the way I would like to protest strongly about this idea of dropping teddy's into Sudan - what did the poor teddy's do to you?? :p
     
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    Mortime Business Software

  • #147
    Sally wrote:
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    it is wrong to call for the death of anyone and Islam states very clearly that you must abide by the laws of the country you live in.
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    Yet muslims continue to commit terrorist acts, and our authorities continue to watch thousands of muslim suspects who are believed to be a real threat. Sorry, but telling us that Islam does not condone what they do is just not good enough. We want them locked up.

    Sally wrote:
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    Oh please, there are millions of people, from all faiths and no faith, that download rubbish like that.
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    I assume you have some statistical evidence to support this statement. Can you show us a distribution of the millions amongst the faiths of the various types of terrorist material downloaded over, say, the last six months? Please include your sources.

    Sally wrote:
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    Nazi's hold rally's in this country, agreed to by the police and hand out leaflets about killing Jews
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    C'mon Sally! The police have no choice about whether to allow such evil to manifest itself now and again in the form of demonstrations. But I doubt very much that they would knowingly allow nazis to distribute material which incites people to kill Jews.

    Sally wrote:
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    My gripe isn't about Muslims or non Muslims, it is about living in a country that now arrests people for 'thought crimes'.
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    Sally wrote:
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    I know lots of young people that read them and shout about the taliban etc but when I suggest I will buy them a plane ticket to Afghanistan they tend to go quiet.
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    Sally. It is your *duty* to report these people to the police so that they can be assessed and maybe watched if they are judged to be a threat.

    Sally wrote:
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    That is what young people do, they rebel and generally have bugger all idea what they are rebelling against or getting into. What I doubt is whether any of them will ever do more than rant on the internet about it.
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    You "doubt" that "any of them will ever do more than rant..."?

    But you are not certain?

    What happens when this army of 'ranters' is presented with a leadership who can organise them?

    Sally wrote:
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    You can't actually poison anyone with a book about poisons, neither can you cut out pictures of a gun and shoot someone. If anything had been found that she could use to physically hurt someone then I would say lock her up and throw away the key.
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    Eh? I have not read any such material, but I would guess that these books are telling the readers which poisons to use and how they might be administered, along with lots of other goodies; similarly for other techniques. Making a conscious effort to own such material clearly shows intent or at least desire, and I, for one, want these evil scum locked away.

    Sally wrote:
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    Everyone in the West shouts about how these Muslim countries need to become civilised and become more westernised, then as soon as there is an issue like this it soon turns into 'what would happen in Sudan or Saudi'. When did two wrongs make a right? If we want them to become more educated and civilised then why should we expect them to already be so??
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Er ... not everyone. Personally, I don't give a damn whether they develop their own countries or not. Good luck to them if they do. But if they want to continually "rant" and "rebel", cause trouble and generally crap all over the place, then let them crap in their own nests, and LEAVE MINE ALONE!

    Dave
     
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    Sally@CC

  • #148
    Dave Mortimer said:
    Yet muslims continue to commit terrorist acts, and our authorities continue to watch thousands of muslim suspects who are believed to be a real threat. Sorry, but telling us that Islam does not condone what they do is just not good enough. We want them locked up.
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    If anyone is an actual threat then I want them locked up too, one because they are a threat to innocent people and two because of the damage they are doing to my faith.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    C'mon Sally! The police have no choice about whether to allow such evil to manifest itself now and again in the form of demonstrations. But I doubt very much that they would knowingly allow nazis to distribute material which incites people to kill Jews.
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    There was a documentary about it 8 weeks or so ago, which I discussed at length with a Jewish friend and the things he told me goes on in this country against Jews shocked the hell out of me. So when are we going to start locking them up for thought crimes?

    Dave Mortimer said:
    Sally. It is your *duty* to report these people to the police so that they can be assessed and maybe watched if they are judged to be a threat.
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    Thank you for your lack of confidence in my intelligence. I was in the British military for a number of years so am perfectly aware of what I need to report and to whom.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    What happens when this army of 'ranters' is presented with a leadership who can organise them?
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    There are more than enough leaders out there for them to follow if they want to. What you may not know is how many Muslims monitor these websites and forums looking for those heading down the wrong track.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    Eh? I have not read any such material, but I would guess that these books are telling the readers which poisons to use and how they might be administered, along with lots of other goodies; similarly for other techniques. Making a conscious effort to own such material clearly shows intent or at least desire, and I, for one, want these evil scum locked away.
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    Evil scum? This is where I take issue and only on this point. They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people or go off to a training camp. Until then they are stupid dreamers with an inferiority complex. Prior to her ranting about Jihad she used to rap and write about anarchy. That doesn't suggest a hardened terrorist but a stupid girl trying to find something to be angry about.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    Er ... not everyone. Personally, I don't give a damn whether they develop their own countries or not. Good luck to them if they do. But if they want to continually "rant" and "rebel", cause trouble and generally crap all over the place, then let them crap in their own nests, and LEAVE MINE ALONE!
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    I imagine the Iraqi's wish we would bugger off, stop killing them and LEAVE THEIRS ALONE!
     
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    Simon-M

  • #149
    Sally@CC said:
    I imagine the Iraqi's wish we would bugger off, stop killing them and LEAVE THEIRS ALONE!
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    I wish we could do that too. I also think the Iraqis should be careful what they wish for. If we all just got up and left, I am sure they would forget about all their feudal arguments, shake hands with each other, party on the streets and start their wonderful new lives all living side by side in complete bliss. ... NOT.
     
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    Sally@CC

  • #150
    logoquality said:
    I wish we could do that too. I also think the Iraqis should be careful what they wish for. If we all just got up and left, I am sure they would forget about all their feudal arguments, shake hands with each other, party on the streets and start their wonderful new lives all living side by side in complete bliss. ... NOT.
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    And how bad were their feudal wars before we, together with the US, decided to make up a story about their ability to detonate nuclear weapons within 45 minutes?
     
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    Simon-M

  • #151
    Sally@CC said:
    And how bad were their feudal wars before we, together with the US, decided to make up a story about their ability to detonate nuclear weapons within 45 minutes?
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    When Saddam executed half of his parliament ... picking them out one by one as traitors, leading them outside and shooting them...(only stopping the executions when the cheering of his name was load enough for him).. this kind of put in place a roadmap to success.

    Then when Chemical Ali got the go ahead to drop some interesting aromours on 5000+ Kurds that stopped a lot of the bickering.

    How they got to the situation they now find themselves in is not relevant to what will happen should we all just get up and go and leave them to it.

    Perhaps Saddam should still be in power. I am sure there would not be nearly as many deaths. However, thats not the case and the puppet government in place right now will not be able to hold the country together on its own.
     
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    Mortime Business Software

  • #152
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    There was a documentary about it 8 weeks or so ago, which I discussed at length with a Jewish friend and the things he told me goes on in this country against Jews shocked the hell out of me. So when are we going to start locking them up for thought crimes?
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    Why should the activities of some groups "shock the hell out of you", but not the activities of some muslims who think extreme thoughts or dream extreme dreams?

    How come you cannot think of these other groups as just harmless teenagers doing what teenagers do?

    Sally wrote:
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    There are more than enough leaders out there for them to follow if they want to.
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    Is that so? You sound like you have some information that the police would be very interested to hear. As an ex-military person, don't you consider it your duty to cough up this information?

    Sally wrote:
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    They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people
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    I consider the offending books and other materials that she had as "materials to kill people". Thankfully, the relevant authorities agree with me.

    Sally. Do you honestly think that we should sit back and wait until someone possesses the actual weapons before we take action? Don't you think that is a little dangerous? I mean, people could get killed if you don't catch them in time.

    Or are you such a military expert that you are confident that you can monitor all these potential murderers, and arrest them just at the point that they acquire their weapons?

    Dave
     
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    Cornish Steve

    Cornish Steve

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    Jul 4, 2005
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  • #153
    Sally@CC said:
    They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people or go off to a training camp. Until then they are stupid dreamers with an inferiority complex.
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    I do sympathise with your position, Sally. We don't want to live in a world where the government questions what we do, controls what we think, and regulates our behaviour. On the other hand, the young lady in question probably shares the same extreme ideology as the young people who blew up trains in London. Must we wait for her to blow up a train too before she's wrong?

    It's a fine balance, and Western countries are struggling with it. If we succumb to threats by limiting personal freedoms, we lose the battle. If we pretend that no one is a threat until they kill, we win on principle but lose through tragedy.

    For example, it's just plain ridiculous that, in the US, airport security screeners pick on pilots and old ladies just so they aren't accused of profiling. As a British citizen living the US, I want them to treat me with more suspicion than US citizens; IMO it's quite OK to screen based on profiles. We'll all feel safer as a result.

    On the other hand, it's stupid to introduce laws that listen in on more and more telephone conversations because that's a slippery slope. The government knows too much about us as it is, and there will always be the temptation to misuse that information.

    I don't know what was the right thing to do with this young lady. Maybe she is just a rebel, but the bombers were probably thought to be just rebels too. Sometimes, it's OK to make an example of someone just to make others think twice about what they're doing. Is it fair? Not always, but the authorities sometimes have to be pragmatic.
     
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    Subbynet

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  • #154
    Evil scum? This is where I take issue and only on this point. They become evil scum when they take action and not until. When they go and start buying the materials to kill people or go off to a training camp. Until then they are stupid dreamers with an inferiority complex. Prior to her ranting about Jihad she used to rap and write about anarchy. That doesn't suggest a hardened terrorist but a stupid girl trying to find something to be angry about.
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    This is clearly wrong as history can prove.

    Take the murders at the school in Finland. The guy who done it posted about these things beforehand on the internet - people were worried about his conduct. Then he started shooting.

    Take the Virginia Tech murders, again, he showed worrying tendency's before the shootings. The professors were concerned about writings he had made. Then he started shooting.

    The 7/7 bombings.. again it was known beforehand that their conduct was leading to something serious..MI5 had them under surveillance. Nothing was done and we know the rest of the story.

    Loads of examples exist where action should have been taken earlier, but wasn't because up till that point they hadn't done the deed.
     
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    Sally@CC

  • #156
    logoquality said:
    How they got to the situation they now find themselves in is not relevant to what will happen should we all just get up and go and leave them to it.
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    I agree completely but I just think when we discuss these issues we must hold our hands up to our part in this mess. I NEVER try to defend Islamic fundamentalism, I am totally against it but I also do not feel we are on the side of the 'right and just'. As I have a foot in both camps I just try to see it from each side. I just finished watching the programme about Blair and it stated very clearly that Islamic Fundamentalist terrorism didn't come to UK until after the Iraq war - is that just a coincidence?

    logoquality said:
    Perhaps Saddam should still be in power. I am sure there would not be nearly as many deaths. However, thats not the case and the puppet government in place right now will not be able to hold the country together on its own.
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    Most of the Arabs I speak to feel a Dictatorship is the only way to control the factions. You are right the puppet government there can do nothing and if you look at the draft constitution that the US & UK have rubber stamped it actually takes away a lot of rights for women that they enjoyed before the war. It is just sickening to see this spreading of 'democracy' in action. Yes Saddam had to be stopped but there were surely better ways to do it than start a civil war. Are you aware that after the invasion of Iraq Bush asked what Sunni and Shia meant?

    goldctrsteve said:
    Must we wait for her to blow up a train too before she's wrong?
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    How many people have we got under observation at the moment? How many surveillance videos are there of people going and checking their stash of fertiliser and training in Cumbria? Of course we must stop these people before they take action but what was it this girl did that required arrest, when we don't arrest so many others but keep them under observation?

    goldctrsteve said:
    IMO it's quite OK to screen based on profiles. We'll all feel safer as a result.
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    I agree and now when I fly I go 4 hours ahead of the flight instead of 2. I don't mind that, I agree people must be protected but I also believe we need to look at what is making our countries targets.

    Subbynet said:
    Loads of examples exist where action should have been taken earlier, but wasn't because up till that point they hadn't done the deed.
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    But they all had the means to do something about their threats. You cannot kill someone if you don't have a gun or bomb making equipment.
     
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    Sally@CC

  • #158
    Dave Mortimer said:
    How come you cannot think of these other groups as just harmless teenagers doing what teenagers do?
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    Because I don't think of Islamic terrorists as teenagers doing what they do. I draw a very distinct line between thought, word and deed.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    Is that so? You sound like you have some information that the police would be very interested to hear.
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    What do you think I do hang out at Osama's place at weekends? Just pick up any newspaper, book about Islamic fundamentalism or watch the news regularly and you can also state that there are plenty of leaders out there these people can follow. As a westerner I need to understand why these people are bombing my country and as a Muslim I need to understand why they think my faith teaches this rubbish.

    Dave Mortimer said:
    Or are you such a military expert that you are confident that you can monitor all these potential murderers, and arrest them just at the point that they acquire their weapons?
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    I hardly think personal insults are called for just because we disagree about this topic. I have never suggested for a moment I am a military expert or a religious one, I just read and try to learn about the attitudes of both sides.
     
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