New Employee Sickness

[Andre78]

Hello all.

We took on a new employee end of last month. In his second week at the beginning of Feb he took a week off sick and then the following Monday also. All the while, saying he'd be in Wed, then Friday and finally on Monday morning very sorry he'll be in Tue as he's been told to take a covid test which supposedly came back negative.

Obviously this changing of duration of sickness caused me more hassle than if he'd have told me he needed a month off for a broken toe as I had to re schedule our workload, my quotations etc etc x3 times.

His contract stipulates more than 3 days off sick requires a note. I haven't received one. I was working on another site today so I haven't seen him so I texted him this eve reminding him to bring his note in tomorrow. No reply. I'm fairly certain I'm going to get some BS about as to why he hasn't got one, to which I will reply, that's fine, just bring in your negative covid result. My gut is telling me this will bring us to an impasse.

Obviously being in probationary period and not fulfilling his contractual requirements means I can sack this seemingly likeable and hard working chap but I'm really after feedback. Mine is a micro business of 4 full time staff it's vital I keep taking on very good personnel and this is a terrible start.

Just after some other people opinions really. Bare in mind he has been back 2 days now and I would think any normal person, who was genuine, in this sort of scenario would have thrust a sick note into my hands on the moment of return.

Thanks

 

[WaveJumper]

My first thought is If someone is absent due to sickness for 7 calendar days or less (including weekends), they do not need a fit note (the new name for a doctors certificate) it's called ‘self-certifying’ their sick leave. They should still be paid the amount of sick pay that’s in their contract so not sure that your employee contract can over rule this. I know someone with a lot of HR experience will be along very soon and point you in the right direction as you could quite easily end up with a tribunal case here if not handled correctly. Tread very carefully until then.

 

[Andre78]

Thanks for info.

This is not about avoiding paying sick pay though. Despite it being a sting for 2nd week on the job. It's more about figuring out where I go from here with this member of staff.

So let's say you're correct and the "fit" note turns out to be a moot factor. The covid test result should surely be available to this person and if it were, he could, and should want to present it. I just have a feeling in my gut that I've been taken for a ride right off the bat and I want to elucidate if this is the case.

I understand the logic for a 7 day respite period before obtaining a fit note. Obviously you can't often even see a GP on that short notice so it makes sense. But from a practical point of view, most people are sick for 1-3 day at a time under normal circumstances. This 7 day period would allow someone to be very very regularly sick without any evidence if they were to abuse it.

 

[Mr D]

Negative test does not mean someone is well. Just means they have a negative test.
Can have covid or something acting very much like it and still have negative test. More than once.

Getting a fit note after 3 days seems harsh. Most places seem to get one after 7 days, and first 3 days of sick are unpaid.....



If I rang my surgery for a fit note I could probably get one now in about a week. Somewhat busy with normal work plus vaccination off site .... Could be longer even.


If you want him then work with him. Or sack him and get someone else. Who may also at some point be sick or have to isolate.

 

[Andre78]

I'm not wanting to see his Covid negative test to prove he was well enough to work. I just want to see it for evidence that he actually did have a test and wasn't just chilling out round the house or working for someone else.

I don't know whether I want him yet of course. We are now in week 3 of his employment, or day 13, of which he has had 6 off sick. I have no idea what kind of person I'm dealing with yet.

 

[bodgitt&scarperLTD]

Get shot of him.

 

[Newchodge]

It is unreasonable to ask for a medical note for anything less than 7 calendar days' absence as the employee would have to pay for it. However, this employee was absent for 8 days. So insist he get a medical note. He can get one by telephoning the surgery and explaining the circumstances, so that won't tell you anything.

The negative test is more useful. If he does not have one, he is untrustworthy and should be sacked immediately for attendance issues. If he has one you need a discussion about reporting procedures.

It is difficult for a member of staff who wants to attend work but does not feel well enough. They may believe their symptoms will clear within a couple of days, but they cannot know that for certain, so try to give the most optimistic estimate of return.

 

[Paul Norman]

It is unreasonable to ask for a medical note for anything less than 7 calendar days' absence as the employee would have to pay for it. However, this employee was absent for 8 days. So insist he get a medical note. He can get one by telephoning the surgery and explaining the circumstances, so that won't tell you anything.

The negative test is more useful. If he does not have one, he is untrustworthy and should be sacked immediately for attendance issues. If he has one you need a discussion about reporting procedures.

It is difficult for a member of staff who wants to attend work but does not feel well enough. They may believe their symptoms will clear within a couple of days, but they cannot know that for certain, so try to give the most optimistic estimate of return.

All of this.

But to add to it, as an employer I would be engaging with someone poorly enough to be off sick for a whole week. Nicely, of course.

And that would help me to assess what to do next. If it is all genuine, and in another week the person is likely to be well, I would want to be supportive.

If I had any doubts, this early in the relationship, we would be parting company.

 

[Mr D]

One of my previous employers had a requirement to ring in before 8am to report sick. They stuck to that policy regardless - hence I was nipping to the toilet at work, getting my phone out of my locker and ringing from the loo before 8am in order to ring in sick the next night.
They really didn't like it the times I rang in sick at 4pm - soon after getting up for a shift.
Disciplinary meetings every time I did that.

 

[Talay]

Sick in the first weeks ? Fired on the spot.

 

[tony84]

First instinct is this is pretty poor and should be out the door.
But I remember in my first proper job I worked for a bank in a call centre. I took nearly 3 weeks off on holiday once, I came back and did about 4 days work and ended up being off for nearly 2 weeks with a sore throat (I literally couldnt talk) as I was not used to talking for 8 hours a day - I offered to go in and do scanning and faxing etc, but they told me to just stay off. Admittedly I had been there for a year by then and my boss knew me.

But had that been the 4th day of starting to work there, it would have looked pretty bad. Is the illness just him getting used to the working environment? Is it working in a cold warehouse for example? If so, it might be worth suggesting he takes something like barocca to keep his immune system up and running (just an example).

I agree though, the covid test should help you work out if he was lying or not, for me that would be the deal breaker.

 

[MBE2017]

Bear in mind guys, the main covid test is a flow test, wipe a swab around your nostrils or throat, into a liquid onto a tab, wait 20/30 mins for result. Everyone I know takes these without any official supervision what so ever.

I don’t know if you get paperwork from Doctors since mine hate anyone going in anyway, but whilst awkward I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt this time. You can ask for a fit note as mentioned but I think you will have to take the covid test on his word.

Maybe there is more behind this concern, but we are in the middle of a pandemic atm, this could happen a lot and most doctors will not provide such proof easily atm, unless it is standard practice. My wife had both a home test and an “official” test to confirm being positive, she had everything confirmed over the phone, no paperwork of any kind. She went to a large testing hospital specialising in these tests.

 

[Mr D]

Bear in mind guys, the main covid test is a flow test, wipe a swab around your nostrils or throat, into a liquid onto a tab, wait 20/30 mins for result. Everyone I know takes these without any official supervision what so ever.

I don’t know if you get paperwork from Doctors since mine hate anyone going in anyway, but whilst awkward I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt this time. You can ask for a fit note as mentioned but I think you will have to take the covid test on his word.

Maybe there is more behind this concern, but we are in the middle of a pandemic atm, this could happen a lot and most doctors will not provide such proof easily atm, unless it is standard practice. My wife had both a home test and an “official” test to confirm being positive, she had everything confirmed over the phone, no paperwork of any kind. She went to a large testing hospital specialising in these tests.

Really?
Everyone I know goes to a testing center and does it, handing in the test at the end. Then get a text and an email about 12 hours later with the result.
No official supervision but the test result can give a 'no reading' result.

Home test is an official test. Just done at home rather than sat at a table in a hall or sat in your car.

 

[japancool]

I take a test in hospital every week, and we do not get any information about the result unless it is positive. Same when I went to a testing centre.

 

[Mr D]

I take a test in hospital every week, and we do not get any information about the result unless it is positive. Same when I went to a testing centre.

You give them your mobile number and email address? Twice have been tested at testing centre, both times had an email and a text giving negative result. Could have printed off the email if I wanted or forwarded the text to my manager's mobile phone.

 

[japancool]

Yes, they have both. And my home address.

 

[tony84]

Bear in mind guys, the main covid test is a flow test, wipe a swab around your nostrils or throat, into a liquid onto a tab, wait 20/30 mins for result. Everyone I know takes these without any official supervision what so ever.

I don’t know if you get paperwork from Doctors since mine hate anyone going in anyway, but whilst awkward I would give the guy the benefit of the doubt this time. You can ask for a fit note as mentioned but I think you will have to take the covid test on his word.

Maybe there is more behind this concern, but we are in the middle of a pandemic atm, this could happen a lot and most doctors will not provide such proof easily atm, unless it is standard practice. My wife had both a home test and an “official” test to confirm being positive, she had everything confirmed over the phone, no paperwork of any kind. She went to a large testing hospital specialising in these tests.

My next door neighbour had one about 2-3 weeks ago, he did not get the result until the next day.

 

[DontAsk]

I got a negative result within 24 hours (the stated time is 3-5 days). Everyone I know who has had a test has had a result, either way.

I would start asking questions.

 

[MBE2017]

The people I know have tests every two to three days, being either in the NHS or teachers, working with kids etc. I have a box at the house that had approx 50 tests in it, just for my wife.
She self tests and sends a form off weekly with the results, unless you get a positive. She only got a call from the hospital, maybe things are different for some NHS staff.

 

[japancool]

The people I know have tests every two to three days, being either in the NHS or teachers, working with kids etc. I have a box at the house that had approx 50 tests in it, just for my wife.
She self tests and sends a form off weekly with the results, unless you get a positive. She only got a call from the hospital, maybe things are different for some NHS staff.

Maybe different NHS trusts do things differently.

 

[Andre78]

So the upshot of this is that he is sick. Very sick.

I received a doctors note signing him off for 3 weeks which I phoned to verify just to be absolutely sure. Also he sent me his blood tests. I'm no doctor he could have leukaemia from the searching I did based on his values. He's got to go for more tests this week.

My contracts offer sick pay beyond statutory upon the discretion of the company. I am paying him full pay. We can't afford to for long though. Just the 7 days he's already had off and this next 3 weeks that he's signed off for. Upshot is I'll be working 60+ hours a week for the next month and earning very little or nothing as I'd just geared the business around taking on this new employee and one other in April when our peak season begins.

Obviously I don't want to pester him but this guy is not very communicative via text or email. I have said I understand the situation is pretty bad but please keep me well informed as my business movements will be in conjunction with my evaluation of his condition. I.e I may take on another member of staff right away and hope he is also well enough to come back to work in the next 2 months or I may hold off. He offered to come in if he feels well enough, to which I refused on the spot as I can't plan around that, and I don't want him dropping dead on site. As an afterthought, later that evening, I asked him to speak to his GP first and if he is OK he could perhaps do tool maintenance or light duties. No response! Obviously I don't want to harass the guy but communication is really poor and I'm kinda wishing I hadn't offered full pay now.

It's difficult when you're stuck between understanding that a person has at best, some kind of blood disorder, and at worst leukaemia but at the same time is causing your business that you've spent 10+ years working 50 -100+ hours a week building and is just really starting to take off, potentially go down the pan. All this within 3 week of hiring them full time....

 

[Mr D]

You are probably right refusing him coming back in without doctor agreeing. No one wants to make someone who is sick, worse.



Previous place I've worked where I had to submit medical notes the policy was HR would contact partway through the note and after end of the note - keep in touch, update records but also not harassing the sick person. And meant HR would know well in advance to expect another sick note or not.

 

[MBE2017]

As an employer you can expect to request info and take into account such things as...

• how long it will take them to recover
• how certain it is that they will recover (with some illnesses, like broken bones, it is clear how long it will take but with something like stress it can be uncertain)
• how easy it is to get cover for the job
• whether the job can be kept open, remember if they have a disability it is a minefield. Take proper advice in such cases.

 

[Mattymoomoo]

Someone with proper HR experience im sure will correct me, but if hired within 2 years, you can fire, just don't give a discriminatory reason.

The situation sux for everyone, but don't take on his burden. You are a business not a charity. Be nice (three weeks additional full sick pay is enough including notice if you can). If it is cancer, this will go on and on and wont bring smiles or productivity. The reason we all pay tax is to cover this situation though the govt and hopefully he has health insurance.

 

[Newchodge]

just don't give a discriminatory reason.

It doesn't matter what reason you give. What matters is the reason for dismissal.

Cancer is one of the confitions that means someone is automatically considered disabled. Dismissing someone because you believe they have cancer is unlawful.

Dismissing someone because their absence, caused by cancer, causes the employer impossible problems, that cannot be alleviated would be lawful. But first you would have to consider all reasonable alternatives to dismissal, such as covering their absence with a temp.

 

[Andre78]

Someone with proper HR experience im sure will correct me, but if hired within 2 years, you can fire, just don't give a discriminatory reason.

The situation sux for everyone, but don't take on his burden. You are a business not a charity. Be nice (three weeks additional full sick pay is enough including notice if you can). If it is cancer, this will go on and on and wont bring smiles or productivity. The reason we all pay tax is to cover this situation though the govt and hopefully he has health insurance.

I'm not going to dismiss him whether lawful or not because he has cancer. But he will have to go to statutory sick pay after his fit note expires in 2 1/2 weeks as is within the contract. I specifically contracted for full sick pay to be discretionary to avoid, not this, but the opportunist who fakes a bad back to get full pay for a year. Had he not just started I probably would try and help him for longer with full sick pay.

If this goes on and on then statutory sick pay is not the end of the world. I assume though, that accrued annual leave would entitle him for full pay for those days accrued but I'm not sure on that yet. Again, situation is bad for all concerned but I'm looking on the bright side. SSP is not extortionate.

 

[Mattymoomoo]

Dismissing someone because their absence, caused by cancer, causes the employer impossible problems, that cannot be alleviated would be lawful. But first you would have to consider all reasonable alternatives to dismissal, such as covering their absence with a temp.

Thanks, Useful to know and at this stage if it were my business I would engage a professional such as your self for guidance and backside covering.

For interest sake, if for example, 1) it was earlier on and the business didnt know about the illness would it have been ok to just fire them; & 2) If the employer kept the information from the employer through the interview would the situation be different?

Cheers,

Matt

 

[Andre78]

He definitely did not know prior to starting. Blood tests were dated from a few days ago. Also, had he a suspicion, joining us would not have been any use as his contract is SSP with full pay at our discretion so getting a full time job, cognisant of pre existing health problems would be of little use to him.

 

[Newchodge]

Thanks, Useful to know and at this stage if it were my business I would engage a professional such as your self for guidance and backside covering.

For interest sake, if for example, 1) it was earlier on and the business didnt know about the illness would it have been ok to just fire them; & 2) If the employer kept the information from the employer through the interview would the situation be different?

Cheers,

Matt

An employer can dismiss an employee at any time for a valid reason. DUring the first 2 years there does not have to be a valid reason but the employer cannot lawfully dismiss because of a protected characteristic. If the employer is genuinely unaware of a protected characteristic (and could not be espected to know) they cannot have dismissed because of that characteristic.

An employee is not required to disclose health details at interview and should not be asked. They can be asked about their attendance record in previous employments Deliberate lies to valid interview questions is grounds for a gross misconduct dismissal.

 

[Andre78]

An employer can dismiss an employee at any time for a valid reason. DUring the first 2 years there does not have to be a valid reason but the employer cannot lawfully dismiss because of a protected characteristic. If the employer is genuinely unaware of a protected characteristic (and could not be espected to know) they cannot have dismissed because of that characteristic.

An employee is not required to disclose health details at interview and should not be asked. They can be asked about their attendance record in previous employments Deliberate lies to valid interview questions is grounds for a gross misconduct dismissal.

How can this be? In our business a person's health, or lack of, can be hazardous to those around him. Risk assessments could not accurately be carried out without knowing of any/all health conditions.

 

[Mr D]

How can this be? In our business a person's health, or lack of, can be hazardous to those around him. Risk assessments could not accurately be carried out without knowing of any/all health conditions.

Then perhaps ask at application stage. Or as a pre employment check.
Some places do both, including referral to occ health for a report.

 

[Newchodge]

How can this be? In our business a person's health, or lack of, can be hazardous to those around him. Risk assessments could not accurately be carried out without knowing of any/all health conditions.

I was talking generally. If there is a valid health and safety reason of course you can ask. But a blanket question is unacceptable. Do you hold a valid HGV licence, for example, would be better than tell us of all and any health conditions you may have.

 

[MBE2017]

How can this be? In our business a person's health, or lack of, can be hazardous to those around him. Risk assessments could not accurately be carried out without knowing of any/all health conditions.

I know of a council worker who was swinging the lead regarding a bad back, looking to go on longe term sick leave. The council suspected what he was trying on but struggled to prove anything, they ended up asking him to declare he could not perform his duties and managed to get rid of him along the lines of being unable to carry out his duties anymore. All legal and above board

Employment law is a real minefield, best use professionals before painting yourself into a corner.

 

[Talay]

Sack him now, save your cash, don't care what disease he "might" have. He can't sue on the grounds of speculation or non diagnosis.

 

[Guy Incognito]

We had a similar situation with an employee a couple of years ago. She was probably off about 1 day a week on average (usually a Monday or a Friday).

We put up with it for longer than we should have done but got rid of her. You cannot run your business with unreliable staff.

Get rid. It will only get worse.

 

[Andre78]

OK so basically this guy's fit not expired on 9th March. He's been off sick since. 1 text update per week telling me there is no end in sight. Started on 25th Jan approx 7 weeks ago has done 11 days work been off sick the rest. I texted today at 9am asking is there a good time to have a brief conversation. No reply it's now 5.30pm.

I'm going to dismiss him on multiple grounds being the following-

-Business not sustainable. Position that he occupies is not generating revenue required and cannot be filled as he occupies it.
-Within probation period.
-Fit notes not kept up to date
-Failure to communicate beyond 1 text message per week his ongoing status despite numerous request to be kept fully updated and paying him full pay for the 3 week period covered by fit note, despite us not been contractually mandated to do so.
Industry volatility due to Covid 19.

How would a tribunal see this if it went that way?

 

[simon field]

As an extractor of the urine I would hope!

 

[Andre78]

Dismissed him Monday. Couldn't see any end to it. Cold as it it I had to make the decision before he did get diagnosed with cancer and I was stuck with him. Had he done more than 2 frickin weeks work I would have acted differently.