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Are UK web designers too expensive...?

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bdw said:
Yes, and the problem is that the majority of the public haven't got a clue what is involved because they don't know what they don't know.

In fact some of the guys doing £100 websites haven't got a clue what's involved ...

,
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So true.... I know countless people offering cheap wordpress sites. The result is always the same - a nice looking site but with zero thought, zero seo, zero marketing, zero quality zero hand holding.


They think they are doing a good job, the client is happy. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Building the actual website is only around 80% of the time involved (if you want to do a proper job)

We can install and set up a WP site in under 10 minutes which includes uploading a template

A further hour will give us a customised logo, some css tweaks and the navigation sorted

Another couple of hours 'could' see content uploads (providing client provides on time.....)

However a proper week would see thorough SEO and competitor research, decent planning, mood boards, integrated social media + training, wire framing, goals, tracking, calls to action, videos, landing pages, traffic generation, JV association, link bait, .....

Cost? try between £2000 - £15,000

If your not doing that then really there is no point having a site in the first place.

To many cowboys in this industry now spoiling it for the rest of us who actually care about clients and provide a decent hand holding service and constant support and guidance.

Any way there is my rant and in answer to the question 'Are uk web designers to expensive?'

I answer, NO

You can buy second hand mini's, to brand new BMW's and custom Rolla's.

We sell BMW's. We look after them, service them and actually add value to our clients.

Can you do that for under £500

Nope
 
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I haven't had the chance to fully read through the thread, but after a quick scan my view is it all depends on the level of service and quality you are expecting.

If your happy with a quick job and need a web presence quickly then you may think that most come across expensive.

Were in the process of having our site rebuilt and I have no problem at all with spending more on it and letting the designer take longer. Its not a quick process, The design not only has to look good, but the site has to work and be easy to use etc and these things take time, and time = money!:cool:
 
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I would agree that sometimes any site is better than no site. But professional business should be investing, as it is a tool to develop as business, so investing in a professional website.
I've begun to use an absolutely amazing freelancer from Berlin. One of the very best Ive ever seen and his rate is £70ph! I know all about freelancer.com and other sites but if you want real quality you have to pay. BMW service - £417 and £8.80 of parts. That's what you get.
Plumbers, carpenters all other good solid trades that are in demand charge weighty prices. If you are good and in demand then you aren't too expensive.
 
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I have had people like lawyers, estate agents and accountants railing at my quotes because they think they I should give them a website for £100 as opposed to £500. :mad:

These are people who charge upwards of £100 an hour for their services. In some cases one average conversion from their website would more than cover its cost yet still they don't see £500 as value for money for a website that is going to bring them in lots of business that otherwise they would not have had.

If I can provide a business website for a client for £500 that will more or less guarantee a very significant ROI then surely that £500 is good value for money no matter how long it takes me to do the work? :|

I think if someone offered me a potentially lucrative deal like this I would be happy to pay for it. When I need any kind of work done I always ask for a price for this work. If (all things considered) I think it is a good price then I will accept it and I won't be worrying how long it takes them to do it. ;)

.
 
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Not really expensive. Off shoring can be cheaper, as they have lower living costs.
We like to Buy British where possible! :)
 
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[FONT=&quot]My favourite web designer was one who said to me “Oh yes, I’m a £35,00 per hour web designer” then asked me if he could build my next site using Xara web designer – the bloke turned out to be an ex LDV van salesman who it turned out had no idea at all how to build a decent quality website, the first and only site he built for me still had not been picked up on Google 6 months after he started to built it – site was promptly deleted from my servers and new site built using Wordpress. Will never outsource web design/build ever again, have since taken on own design and build team to run and maintain our own sites.[/FONT]
 
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Hi everyone

You certainly get what you pay for. I'm not expensive (not cheap either) but I do a good job, my clients love their websites and get interest in their companies (new or otherwise) by having a well designed site.

Why do we get sniffed at if we charge a reasonable amount to design a site and they say it's too much. We spend years gaining experience, training and learning all we need to learn to do a professional job, so should be paid accordingly. Unfortunately there are too many people charging very cheaply (and clients asking for a cheap site - which i'm afraid...you get what you pay for)!

Julie
 
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Poppy Design said:
they had prices from a couple of design companies at around £4000! Needless to say my prices were a lot more realistic so I got the job!
Click to expand...

I think you get what you pay for
Click to expand...
Those too statements don't really send the same message. You're trying to say it's fine you charge more than cheap overseas people. But then you also say people who charge more than you are overpriced.
 
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JDX_John said:
Those too statements don't really send the same message. You're trying to say it's fine you charge more than cheap overseas people. But then you also say people who charge more than you are overpriced.
Click to expand...

No I never said at all "You're trying to say it's fine you charge more than cheap overseas people."

I said - you usually get what you pay for - no reference in that line to overseas companies.

In the particular job I refered to YES I did feel the other company who quoted £4000 for a 7/8 page static brochure style website (no database, cms, animation etc) was very overpriced - I think most other web design companies on here would agree.

Every design company or work at home web designer has their own style, quality, expertise and cost - it is like every business type - there are cheap options, anything inbetween and expensive - it is for the client to find a design company (whether overseas or UK) that suits them and their budget.

There are a lot of elements that go into a web design - yes the design but also the quality of graphics, the copywriting, the SEO, the level of customer service offered and the aftercare.

Personally I like to keep my outsourcing in the UK - that's my personal preference as I think UK companies should support each other but is really up the individual or business who they use.
 
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dubOnline said:
So true.... I know countless people offering cheap wordpress sites. The result is always the same - a nice looking site but with zero thought, zero seo, zero marketing, zero quality zero hand holding.


They think they are doing a good job, the client is happy. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Building the actual website is only around 80% of the time involved (if you want to do a proper job)

We can install and set up a WP site in under 10 minutes which includes uploading a template

A further hour will give us a customised logo, some css tweaks and the navigation sorted

Another couple of hours 'could' see content uploads (providing client provides on time.....)

However a proper week would see thorough SEO and competitor research, decent planning, mood boards, integrated social media + training, wire framing, goals, tracking, calls to action, videos, landing pages, traffic generation, JV association, link bait, .....

Cost? try between £2000 - £15,000

If your not doing that then really there is no point having a site in the first place.

To many cowboys in this industry now spoiling it for the rest of us who actually care about clients and provide a decent hand holding service and constant support and guidance.

Any way there is my rant and in answer to the question 'Are uk web designers to expensive?'

I answer, NO

You can buy second hand mini's, to brand new BMW's and custom Rolla's.

We sell BMW's. We look after them, service them and actually add value to our clients.

Can you do that for under £500

Nope
Click to expand...

Post of the day, couldn't put it better myself. It's the ethos we operate by - and our customers love it.

I like the old designer's maxim: "It took me seconds to draw it, but 34 years to learn how to draw it in a few seconds"
 
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dubOnline said:
So true.... I know countless people offering cheap wordpress sites. The result is always the same - a nice looking site but with zero thought, zero seo, zero marketing, zero quality zero hand holding.


They think they are doing a good job, the client is happy. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

Building the actual website is only around 80% of the time involved (if you want to do a proper job)
....
Cost? try between £2000 - £15,000

If your not doing that then really there is no point having a site in the first place.
----

Can you do that for under £500

Nope
Click to expand...

Not everyone has thousands of pounds to have a website designed, developed, hosted and marketed. Most would advise against getting a "web designer" to take on every element of creating a successful website anyway.

I know what your saying about needing proper planning, having a decent website developed, optimising it to convert and taking care of the marketing. An established company with spare cash is in a great position to invest in all these elements but a new or very small business has to take baby steps.

£600 for a website and maybe a simple logo... get a little help from UKBF to learn how to get in Google and submit to local.... then maybe 6 months or further down the road they have some spare cash to invest in link building, have content written, manage their social media, update their branding/design.
 
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It all depends on the type of business and type of site. If you want a good looking and functioning Magento site and you've only set aside £600 for it I think your in for a shock.
 
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It has ALWAYS been possible to start a business with virtually no money, and the internet makes this easier, not harder.
You do NOT need to spend £thousands as a bare minimum unless you are doing something special. If you are not selling anything on your site directly, that is doubly true.

Starting a business from nowt is a proud tradition in the UK, and long may it continue.
 
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I wish it was easier to locate designers that actually had a clue. It seems to me many of them don't know the basics like call to actions etc.

Also the usability of sites designed seems to be getting worse, you can usually tell looking at a designers site whether they are interested in making sites that work or crazy bespoke stuff that is not the best.
 
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I wish it was easier to locate designers that actually had a clue. It seems to me many of them don't know the basics like call to actions etc.
Click to expand...
What you should consider is that designers are often required to build websites to their clients specs and clients very often think they know more about design and marketing than the designer does.

Designers "take the shilling" so they have to keep clients happy. This is the truth about what often happens ... http://theoatmeal.com/comics/design_hell

.
 
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bdw said:
Designers "take the shilling" so they have to keep clients happy. This is the truth about what often happens ...

.
Click to expand...

This one makes me giggle, not allowed to link yet so stick the www on yourself youtube.com/watch?v=Wac3aGn5twc
 
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Totally agree about clients always knowing best. I have a client who had a really good website which was getting no orders (it was new, they hadn't marketed it at all) so they thought they would come to me and pay for me to absolutely ruin their site.

The colour scheme is awful, logo is awful, calls to action are non existent and the bounce rate has gone through the roof.

I have advised them throughout that it won't help and to just market the website (even potentially meaning I lose work) so it gets traffic but they use the "I am the customer, I know what I want" type attitude.

They have now paid me a fair amount of money to totally ruin their website against my advice because they know best.
 
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Actually I have found the reverse is true. UK web designers are better value if not cheaper. I am talking from practical experience and often get quotes from UK and Indian (India) designers. I nearly always find the UK small businesses either cheaper or better value.
 
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I agree with some statements above about many designers not having a clue about business objectives.

Websites are primarily a tool for lead generation /selling a product, and it constantly amazes me how little many designers know about this.

For those who say "why charge so much for a wordpress install with a template" - the actual development of a site is much more than just installing a cms: the cms is a tool, nothing more. It is like buying a hammer and calling yourself a carpenter.

The content of a website is easily the most overlooked aspect of the vast majority of sites, yet perhaps the most important, why are so few designers unaware of this? They seem to think that it is something that the client should provide.

Generating business online is more than whacking up a site and paying an indian to "do seo", you need a strategy, and a website is just one piece of that strategy.

Just my two cents worth
 
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Poppy Design said:
There are a lot of elements that go into a web design [..] the copywriting, the SEO [..]
Click to expand...

This is the only bit I disagree with you on, in this entire thread and it's probably only an idealogical thing and people likely will disagree with me but I don't think those are design elements and therefor not the job of a web designer.

I get that generally we are all lumped into the same pot as 'web people' but copywriting should be done by a copywriter and SEO.. well that should die in a fire as a 'service'.

For me there is a very thin line that has to be straddled with clients. Our job is to create something that represents your business in the best way possible. I don't think it's our job to sell products for them. Now those things overlap greatly ofcourse, I get that, the job of many websites is to sell product but I think there has to be some clear separation between the two.

I think of this way. My main responsibility is to greet customers, please them visually, get them to trust the company, help them easily navigate to products and help them easily carry out a purchase. It's not my responsibility to get a person to your site OR to convince them they actually need a new hammer (or whatever you are selling) that's the job of other people.

Like I say, it's a very thin line, we all cross it, we all need to be the 'web everyman' from time to time when dealing with small business' but I think we should be very careful to not just automatically include Copy/SEO into the label of 'web designer'.

On the point of SEO. Well.. I just hate it as a service people actually sell. You might call me an internet purist but I think as web designers/developers or anyone who is professionally in the role of creating part of the internet has a responsibility to try and do it in a way that respects the system, that respects what actually made all of our jobs possible in the first place.

I think for a start anyone building any website should be aiming to be as standards compliant as possible and with that comes 'friendliness' to search engines. Secondly I think it's highly unethical to create inbound links for your clients when they didn't earn them. Even if we ignore the fact Google et-al will get wise to it eventually and at best render your work meaningless (at worst remove your client from the listings if you are particularly black-hatty) I think it's bad form to muddy the pool you swim in.

Anyway, that's my 2pence.
 
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Glowbridge said:
This is the only bit I disagree with you on, in this entire thread and it's probably only an idealogical thing and people likely will disagree with me but I don't think those are design elements and therefor not the job of a web designer.

I get that generally we are all lumped into the same pot as 'web people' but copywriting should be done by a copywriter and SEO.. well that should die in a fire as a 'service'.

For me there is a very thin line that has to be straddled with clients. Our job is to create something that represents your business in the best way possible. I don't think it's our job to sell products for them. Now those things overlap greatly ofcourse, I get that, the job of many websites is to sell product but I think there has to be some clear separation between the two.

I think of this way. My main responsibility is to greet customers, please them visually, get them to trust the company, help them easily navigate to products and help them easily carry out a purchase. It's not my responsibility to get a person to your site OR to convince them they actually need a new hammer (or whatever you are selling) that's the job of other people.

Like I say, it's a very thin line, we all cross it, we all need to be the 'web everyman' from time to time when dealing with small business' but I think we should be very careful to not just automatically include Copy/SEO into the label of 'web designer'.

On the point of SEO. Well.. I just hate it as a service people actually sell. You might call me an internet purist but I think as web designers/developers or anyone who is professionally in the role of creating part of the internet has a responsibility to try and do it in a way that respects the system, that respects what actually made all of our jobs possible in the first place.

I think for a start anyone building any website should be aiming to be as standards compliant as possible and with that comes 'friendliness' to search engines. Secondly I think it's highly unethical to create inbound links for your clients when they didn't earn them. Even if we ignore the fact Google et-al will get wise to it eventually and at best render your work meaningless (at worst remove your client from the listings if you are particularly black-hatty) I think it's bad form to muddy the pool you swim in.

Anyway, that's my 2pence.
Click to expand...

You make some very valid points there regarding the role of a webdesigner,
but in the end the role of a designer is to solve a problem in an aesthetic way, whether it be industrial design, product design, or webdesign.

The problem to be solved on a website is to present products/information clearly and guide users through a process - in most cases convince them to make a purchase/fill out a form etc. In other words, your role as a designer is to solve the problem of aligning the needs of a visitor with the business objectives of the client.

If you are a designer on a project where there are other people such as copywriters, developers and marketing people working with you, I agree completely that you can just concentrate on "design" elements, but where you are dealing with a small business who knows they need a website but are not sure what it should do exactly, or understand exactly how it can benefit them, I believe it is your responsibility to point out that other elements apart from "design" are needed.

With regards to your comments on SEO, things have advanced so much in this area that it is now more generally online marketing. It is about building popularity of your website, and increasing visibility, not spamming the internet. To say it is unethical to "build" inbound links is extremely naïve, good SEO these days is about outreach and relationship building with influencers online, and making sure your message is visible where people are looking. Done well, this attracts links. With all the time, resources and effort put into this, how you can say these links are not "earned" is beyond me. Google even has guidelines to help SEOs, so saying SEO is unethical is like saying advertising is unethical.
Of course, the waters are muddied by low-cost, outsourced spamming by companies using questionable techniques, but this is not a long term strategy, and anyone serious about their online presence is not going to engage in these practices. With these sort of services, we come back round to the dodgy cheap useless website providers - they fall into the same bucket as dodgy cheap SEO providers in my book.

The industry is changing, and rapidly, and I think if you want to take your career as a webdesigner seriously, you should realize what it actually is you are selling - not a design but a solution. If all you want to do is the design aspect, you should be working with other team members who fulfill the other roles, or else YOU are being unethical with your clients by not telling them the whole story when you take on a project.
 
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What really surprised me about some Web Designers, is they can't do graphic design, i mean skilled graphic design - not somebody who has played around with photoshop
Probably one of the most important skills in Website Designing
 
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trebor8 said:
What really surprised me about some Web Designers, is they can't do graphic design, i mean skilled graphic design - not somebody who has played around with photoshop Probably one of the most important skills in Website Designing
Click to expand...
I know very few webbies who can put stylus to Wacom - but do they actually need to? I don't agree that being highly skilled in graphic design is all that important. Just a basic understanding is all that's required.
 
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Eagle said:
I don't agree that being highly skilled in graphic design is all that important. Just a basic understanding is all that's required.
Click to expand...

Why?

Shouldn't a website be aesthetically pleasing (and to give impact) as well as informative
The Internet is now awash with insipid template driven corporate looking sites.
If your a Website Designer don't you want to give your clients website, impact?
Isn't it this, that makes you stand out from the rest of the crowd
 
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trebor8 said:
Why?

Shouldn't a website be aesthetically pleasing (and to give impact) as well as informative
The Internet is now awash with insipid template driven corporate looking sites.
If your a Website Designer don't you want to give your clients website, impact?
Isn't it this, that makes you stand out from the rest of the crowd
Click to expand...

It seems a lot on here that are more "coders" are quite bad at the graphic part which is why their portfolios are very bad.

I would be more inclined to get the site built by a coder then for the other stuff like a logo pay someone who specialises in logo creation their 20 pounds, then put some away for the other graphics.
 
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Agree, coders and graphic design don't go together

but i'd be equally surprised if most Website Designers are skilled coders
 
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trebor8 said:
Why?

Shouldn't a website be aesthetically pleasing (and to give impact) as well as informative
The Internet is now awash with insipid template driven corporate looking sites.
If your a Website Designer don't you want to give your clients website, impact?
Isn't it this, that makes you stand out from the rest of the crowd
Click to expand...

Nope being top of the search engines makes you stand out.

Design has very little to do with making money.

Earl
 
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sirearl said:
Nope being top of the search engines makes you stand out.

Design has very little to do with making money.

Earl
Click to expand...

Elements of design increase your conversion.

I'm very surprised a "sales and pr" chap like yourself has to be told this. :p
 
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MASSEY said:
Elements of design increase your conversion.

I'm very surprised a "sales and pr" chap like yourself has to be told this. :p
Click to expand...

a minute amount compared with being No1 on google.

Besides its your product and price that make the conversion.

Earl
 
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sirearl said:
a minute amount compared with being No1 on google.

Besides its your product and price that make the conversion.

Earl
Click to expand...

The product and price could be amazing but if they dont know how to buy it its pointless!

What about calls to action? Heat maps etc? Split testing?

Do you really do seo?
 
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