Are UK web designers too expensive...?
- Thread starter Baz Watkins
- Start date
Of course they don't.
I better apply for that job down the coal mine.
I wonder how google makes its money?:|
Earl
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In my experience in the corp sector they do sometimes invite people to put a tender in from finding them online!
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John Boy forgot to say there is hardly anything in the world that can not be sold for many times its true value.
Beware of quoting long dead people who were not very well educated.
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
John Ruskin
Earl
Beware of quoting long dead people who were not very well educated.
There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey.
John Ruskin
Earl
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Interesting discussion,
I've had a site built by a uk company, it was pretty complex but cost around £10k, the site was poorly optimised and pretty much washed their hands of us after they had built it, it was bespoke, so changes need to be done by them or additional changes to allow us to carry them out - either way a constant stream of money for them, its now hard to move as other companies are unable to use their own system, so this may result in another rebuild. We are having three sites designed this week by an Indian company for less money than we pay for monthly maintenance on our existing site
Will let you know how the others pan out
Note - this has not been written to offend any uk based web designers
I've had a site built by a uk company, it was pretty complex but cost around £10k, the site was poorly optimised and pretty much washed their hands of us after they had built it, it was bespoke, so changes need to be done by them or additional changes to allow us to carry them out - either way a constant stream of money for them, its now hard to move as other companies are unable to use their own system, so this may result in another rebuild. We are having three sites designed this week by an Indian company for less money than we pay for monthly maintenance on our existing site
Will let you know how the others pan out
Note - this has not been written to offend any uk based web designers
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B
bdw
You have certainly not offended me.
But I have to say that unless the UK company deliberately misled you the problems you are experiencing all your own fault. Have you never heard of Due Diligence?
Part of our email signature ...
.
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trebor8
Why can they charge you for changing your own website? are you on a custom CMS, done by them? with no other access - i.e Cpanel
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trebor8
I'm sure they were saying this 10yrs ago and the world has been global since.....forever
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Website software will get easier to use and memory will get cheaper and cheaper
Unless it's quite specialised more people will do there own websites
Way the economies are going the Russians might be coming to us for cheap websites
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Seriously? So a website with no calls to action that looks awful would make the same as one with great calls to action and a split tested layout?
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TailorMade
While many bigger businesses can afford to pay a premium for web design, cash strapped start-ups often struggle to afford the rates quoted - even "mates rates".
While I am sure I will open myself to flaming, I think it makes sense for anyone to outsource their project online - whether you want someone in the UK or abroad as that is the best, most efficient way for a time and cash poor SME to get the best value for money. Freelancer operates an open competitive tender process, so you will find bids come in more keenly.http://www.hestiaservices.co.uk
I think the key to ensuring you get quality work done is to make full use of the tools at your disposal:
1) Take the time to write a proper, detailed brief. (or pay someone to help you do it)
2) set a realistic budget
3) Take time to discuss with several freelancers that bid for the project and find someone you can trust and develop rapport with
4) DO NOT PAY anything in advance. Setup a milestone, and wait until agreed deliverables are supplied and you are happy with what you receive.
5) For larger projects, break it down into smaller chunks so you can make a series of smaller payments according to deliverables being provided.
Do your homework, follow these tips and whether you want a developer in the UK or abroad, you will save plenty of time and some money and mitigate many of the risks associated with outsourcing a project.
<<Advertising removed by mod>>
While I am sure I will open myself to flaming, I think it makes sense for anyone to outsource their project online - whether you want someone in the UK or abroad as that is the best, most efficient way for a time and cash poor SME to get the best value for money. Freelancer operates an open competitive tender process, so you will find bids come in more keenly.http://www.hestiaservices.co.uk
I think the key to ensuring you get quality work done is to make full use of the tools at your disposal:
1) Take the time to write a proper, detailed brief. (or pay someone to help you do it)
2) set a realistic budget
3) Take time to discuss with several freelancers that bid for the project and find someone you can trust and develop rapport with
4) DO NOT PAY anything in advance. Setup a milestone, and wait until agreed deliverables are supplied and you are happy with what you receive.
5) For larger projects, break it down into smaller chunks so you can make a series of smaller payments according to deliverables being provided.
Do your homework, follow these tips and whether you want a developer in the UK or abroad, you will save plenty of time and some money and mitigate many of the risks associated with outsourcing a project.
<<Advertising removed by mod>>
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It depends on the business and the website
For some businesses a website is important. I have a friend with an online subscription site. It's specialised and central to his business
To a lot of smaller businesses they have a website but it plays a small role in generating sales. For them a well optimised thoughtfully worded "off the shelf" site is fine.
And I would agree with Sireal. What it says and the way it sells the product and the way it describes what is on offer is more important than the design as long as the design isn't really poor
The thing I like about DIY website is you know what customers ask for, what presses their buttons and makes them interested in your services.
I feel the future for current web designer is in training people to do their own sites and to optimise them. I think that will be a growing market
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I think using a freelancer or a one man/woman band type company is a great option for many small businesses who can't afford the fees of a larger agency. It's also the case that some larger businesses prefer to use freelancers.
There are risks but these can be managed.
I would however advise against simple price comparisons. Businesses have overheads and need to make a profit, a freelancer or one person business simply needs to make a wage. I'm not suggesting you can't get a first class job without using a business, simply that straight comparisons don't mean that much.
If you can secure the exact same product (design, development, ongoing support etc) using a freelancer you will spend less money, there's no doubt abut that.
d
There are risks but these can be managed.
I would however advise against simple price comparisons. Businesses have overheads and need to make a profit, a freelancer or one person business simply needs to make a wage. I'm not suggesting you can't get a first class job without using a business, simply that straight comparisons don't mean that much.
If you can secure the exact same product (design, development, ongoing support etc) using a freelancer you will spend less money, there's no doubt abut that.
d
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So long as you are aware of the risks of using freelancers and have a back up plan then thats okay. HOWEVER, we employ freelancers all of the time, as in give them full time jobs (freelancing for many is stop gap before eventually opting for the security of full time employment).
I've had clients left in limbo whereby their entire online business was in the hands of a single person (a freelancer) who decided to simply stop freelancing (and left his clients high and dry) - I've seen it where people have got ill (or worse), have gone into full-time employment and even one that decided to travel the world (seriously) and was only available to contact on the odd occasion he went into an internet cafe.
Freelancers are often cheaper than employing a company, but there are big risks associated with using freelancers and you need to make sure you have a back up plan should that freelancer simply vanish one day (because it does happen, I've seen it).
I've had clients left in limbo whereby their entire online business was in the hands of a single person (a freelancer) who decided to simply stop freelancing (and left his clients high and dry) - I've seen it where people have got ill (or worse), have gone into full-time employment and even one that decided to travel the world (seriously) and was only available to contact on the odd occasion he went into an internet cafe.
Freelancers are often cheaper than employing a company, but there are big risks associated with using freelancers and you need to make sure you have a back up plan should that freelancer simply vanish one day (because it does happen, I've seen it).
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MancunianCreative
Why do I keep seeing the work risk in this thread?
There is a risk using overseas workers, there is a risk using so called expensive UK agencies, there is a risk using freelancers?
I dont see it. Whether you work with a freelancer, an agency or a team of 100 from Mumbai - If you review portfolios, and agree a contract, I do not possibly see how there can be a risk. If you do not review a portfolio. If you do not sign a contract, then you leave yourself wide open.
There is a risk using overseas workers, there is a risk using so called expensive UK agencies, there is a risk using freelancers?
I dont see it. Whether you work with a freelancer, an agency or a team of 100 from Mumbai - If you review portfolios, and agree a contract, I do not possibly see how there can be a risk. If you do not review a portfolio. If you do not sign a contract, then you leave yourself wide open.
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MancunianCreative
Which? The one bout freelancers deciding to travel the world? Well if you have a contract they can be held to the contract.
Although I must admit I do not have a running off around the world clause in my own!
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If an important element of your business relies on one person, staff or freelancer, you should manage that risk in a realistic way. Waving a contract around won't solve your problem if your member of staff or freelancer is unavailable.
d
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As with pretty much anything in life there are risks.
You can't see the risk in putting your business into the hands of a single individual? He could drop dead (or simply decide upsticks and travel, change career etc) and he was your only developer, often leaving no documentation/backup strategy of how to actually pick up the pieces should he not be around anymore. Quite often, other people won't be willing/capable of picking up someone else's code and even if they can, it could be weeks/months of downtime whilst a new developer is found/up to speed - downtime which most companies can't afford. I'm not making this up, I've seen it first hand.
The risks of going outside the UK; getting a contract from a freelancer (or even some "companies") outside the UK is about as sound as getting a "certificate of authenticity" from a counterfeit factory in china. Have you ever tried to take an Indian, Eastern European (or anyone else outside the UK for that matter) to court should they not deliver what they said they would (contract or no contract) those that have experienced this will tell you that contract was actually worthless.
Risks with agencies, they may go bust (many do!), they may not actually be the people doing the work (they may outsource it), so do your homework into how long they've been trading, how many staff they have (in the UK!), how many clients they have, speak to their clients directly, go visit them and see their setup, even credit check them if need be.
If you don't do your homework when looking for a web company (especially when it comes to eCommerce) then it's your own fault when things go wrong. Simply looking at someones portfolio and agreeing a contract with them in my experience is not enough to avoid a project falling apart at the seems - christ I've even seen OUR work on other peoples portfolios and sent legal letters to freelancers claiming our work as their own - which is why I tell people to contact their clients, to confirm they are actually clients of theirs!
Sorry for the rant, but we pick up calls from failed web projects literally every day of the week (it accounts for around 70% of the enquiries we get). So to say there aren't risks so long as you get a contract and look at someones portfolio is completely untrue.
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MancunianCreative
Without going into all the other possible single person risks that a business has, eventually it will all boil down to one person.
Who ever opens your office, if he doesn't turn up you don't get into work. Train driver decides he isn't coming in and your train is cancelled. Postman bins all your important mail, incoming cheques etc.
There is no more a risk with one person designing a website than there is a company. What if the company goes bump? There's less chance of that with a freelancer.....
I'm not biased in anyway here either. As I have freelanced, and I now run an agency that is small enough to be called freelancing-friends, over an agency.
Who ever opens your office, if he doesn't turn up you don't get into work. Train driver decides he isn't coming in and your train is cancelled. Postman bins all your important mail, incoming cheques etc.
There is no more a risk with one person designing a website than there is a company. What if the company goes bump? There's less chance of that with a freelancer.....
I'm not biased in anyway here either. As I have freelanced, and I now run an agency that is small enough to be called freelancing-friends, over an agency.
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TailorMade
^ What he says ^
As someone who runs an outsourcing company that is hardly surprising.
.
True, I am obviously biased in that respect, but I also have about 10 years insight into the process and know there are plenty of things which can be done to mitigate risk.
On Freelancer.co.uk, a buyer pays nothing until they are 100% happy with the deliverables - that is the probably best protection one could ask for. We also have Ebay style feedback and ratings and project discussion boards which combine to ensure anyone posting a project can and should discuss the specifics of the project in depth, review past work and go through the same due diligence procedures they would if working with an agency in the UK.
In fact, I think people that want to work with an agency in the UK (that's still outsourcing, by definition) should also post a project on a Freelancer.co.uk and with UK companies bidding you will still save a whole heap of wasted time and energy putting out phone calls, waiting for proposals, going back and forth, finding people to tender and you will probably also save a nice little bundle as people will be forced to make fair and realistic quotes. (A UK agency quoted hestiaservices.co.uk £40,000 to create that website! They got it for well under 1/10th of that by taking the most expensive of 38 bids on Freelancer (and used someone in the UK).
I recently practised what I preach above for a party we had in London, posted a job on Freelancer for a London based videographer and a London based photographer - I had more than 9 bids for each within days and didn't have to waste hours googling, checking yell, listening to voicemail etc.. I got keen prices, quality work and saved myself about half a day messing about - while still spending money in the UK which came from outside the UK (we are an Aussie firm).
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The first time that happens (if you are smart) you will sharp learn that you need a second keyholder; tthis proves my point exactly, people who haven't experienced locking themselves out of work yet unable to forsee (or accept that it happens) let alone plan for it happening and have backup strategy for when it does.
And to say there is no more risk with one person (A SINGLE POINT OF FAILURE) is completely unfounded, foolish and miss-guided.
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TailorMade
Partly promoting this website since I am responsible for all it's UK operations, yes. But also promoting what is the most sensible and effective means for any time/cash poor small business to get the job done - in the UK or elsewhere. The Internet is here now and the days of ringing round suppliers, getting 5 quotes, going to 10 meetings, having a hundred telephone calls, to spend a couple of grand on a website are over. That's the preserve of civil servants and big business employees who need to create work to keep themselves busy.. SMEs don't - or shouldn't have the time for that!
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