Degree classification....Would you hire a 3rd class graduate?

[BizGurl]

Basically, as the thread title asks, would you hire someone with a 3rd class degree?

Does the grade matter, or is the fact they have a degree enough?

If you wouldn't even consider someone with a 3rd, why?

I know some people say theyre not worth the paper they're written on, but what about individual cases and cicumstances....afterall surely not all 3rd class holders are lazyabouts spending all they're days boozing, right?

Also, some may be bright but uni was just not right for them?

Would you give them the chance to explain themselves or just write them off completely without even getting to know more about them?

I know a lot of employers who couldn't care less about grades and don't discriminate on this....but also a lot who treat 3rd class holders like some kind of 2nd class citizens...

 

[leemason]

From my experience you just have to be breathing at the end of the course to get a third.

I would also take into consideration the institution. Not all degrees are equal.

 

[The Topcopy]

I wouldn't write them off. It really depends on the job and whether they have the skills, the temperament and/or the potential to fit into the company. I would, however, be interested in why they got a third - I'd ask them whether they enjoyed studying for their degree and what they got out of it in the hope that they'd explain. As you say, there could well be a good reason that wouldn't affect their ability to do the job.

 

[BizGurl]

I agree slightly about considering the institution, but does that mean everyone from a 'community college degree course' or 'former polytechnic' automatically written off because they didn't go to a top 20 uni?

With regards to the grade....don't they even get a chance to explain why they got a 3rd? They can't put personal circumstances (i.e. illness, family breakdown, whatever) on a CV....so why are they dismissed before they even get to 'defend' themselves?

I can imagine the majority of 3rd class holders would have wasted their time but my concern is for those who didn't. but don't get a look in.

(For the record I'm not discussing myself!)

 

[TotallySport]

I would employ the person not the degree, do they come across as though they can do the job? and can they show evidence of being able to do the job?

There is more to employing someone than there qualification IMO

 

[InternetMarketingPlatinum]

Like others have said, it depends whether I consider them able to do the job.

 

[Christine Hough]

I did a post graduate course from Cambridge Uni and there there was a very inteligent, practical and thoughtful guy who had only got a third.

He had spent a lot of his time as an undergraduate potholing though!

He got a good job with a good company, but left later to do something more entrepreneurial.

I met some with better degrees, for top univetsities who were really not that bright and needed things explaining slowly.

All a top grade really shows is that someone has been focussed and wokked to reach the standard. But that is no bad thing, and they may turn out to be excellent employees. Others may have sailed through with an uncanny aptitude and be too clever to settle into an employed position.

Best to talk to them to see if they are what you want

Educational results are not really too good a predictor unless you need someone with that particular knowledge. There is a lot more that goes into finding a great employee which is not tested.

 

[Liybpg]

From my experience, I am not even sure how you get a third degree. You have to be not very bright and not care about studies at all - bad combination.

Employers need some evidence that you are able to do the job well, if you have just graduated and don't have much work experience and all you have is your degree - this is pretty much the only evidence they've got of how good you are. It may be not the best measure, but it does show how you can motivate yourself (even if you don't like it) and how clever you are.

If all you've got is a third and not much work experience, there's no evidence really to show that you are a worthy candidate. Some employers might think differently, but I guess the majority will follow this logic.

 

[Leo-InstallingIT]

In my opinion it really depends on how the person comes across and if this adds up with their degree. If someone has a 3rd and shows a slight feel of being lazy then it should probably tell you something.

However if someone came to me with a decent reason why they got a 3rd then I see no reason not to employ them. For example, I originally did my degree in Physics but after a year or so it became apparent that I didn't really want to be a physicist. So I started to run my IT business while at uni. I didn't get a third, but my attention was definitely shifted to more applied knowledge in IT than my degree; which in an employee I would find more appealing than having a 1st.

 

[Gillie]

Ok so some above are saying that it depends on how they come across - but aint they got to get to interview stage first?

You are sitting with over 100 applications in your hand, you have stated degree level - all other criteria are met by everyone - and you are telling me that you wouldnt pass over those with a third??

And why put special circumstances, hell lets just put that for every exam you study - just in case!!

And yes, which and where you got the result from too will affect your decision regardless of all the good intentions those above say wouldnt affect them.

Being realistic, of my three brats, I have one at a top ten Uni, I have one about to go to a top 20 Uni and the third, well he is too young yet.

Its all about managing expectations - and you expect someone with a certain degree to be at a certain level and if they also have a degree from a well known and acknowledged top Uni, you will favour them!!

 

[mit74]

The computing degree I have was too easy and those in my year who got a third have all been either the lazy ones who couldn't be bothered to do anything or get involved or the ones who weren't simply bright enough and found even simple tasks such as basic maths or basic programming too challenging. So no it's likely I wouldn't employ someone with a third. Anyone who displays any interest or passion for IT work would not get a third unless there were extreme circumstances.

 

[TotallySport]

If someone wrote a good cover letter, they would get an interview, the number of good cover letters we get is very few indeed, so a CV doesn't necessarily need to have good qualifications, then at the interview they would need to be able to demonstrate their ability and standards.

 

[movietub]

Unless the candidate is applying for a job that really requires a degree then I would always see any degree only as an extra indication that the person is suitable for the job and has some apptitude for the skills involved.

But a third? That really is a universities way of saying 'everyone gets a prize'. Like the cuddly toy you win at a fair which is worth 50p after playing an impossible to lose game for £3 a go. It's not a prize, it's just an example of a poor return for 2-3 years of life.

For any job where a first or second is not an absolute requirement, then a third is less relevant than just about any other effort the candidate could make to impress me.

For example, lets say I'm hiring someone to merchandise our ecommerce website. I have two candidates both equal in every way except one has degree in ecommerce something or other, but its a thord class degree. The other has no degree at all.

BUT the other person decided that instead of going to uni, they would work 12 months for another firm at minimum wage alongside a merchandiser, and they have left with a glowing reference. Which do you think I would choose?

And the kicker is, the person that went and got the experience earned about the same in one year as the first person paid each year for 3 years to get a lesser result. So my choice is between a person that either wastes time and money then fails, or a person that is honest enough to realise they perform badly academically but feels they can prove they are skilled in a practical way in 1/3 the time.

 

[benjamin_c]

Degree's arn't that hard, i've managed to get 2:1's in the last 2 years and i've left most of the work untill the night before deadline (typical student in that respect) the only people who get 3rds and low 2:2's are the one's who just don't attend or just don't have the ability to do the course.
A degree shouldn't be the only factor used to choose an employee though as i know people who constantly get high level 1sts in all of their work but they lack common sense and the ability to think outside the accedemic guidelines they have been tought, and i know people without a degree who have so much potentual and could do most jobs a graduate could do to an equal or even better standard.
If i were employing someone i would rather employ someone without a degree at all than with a 3rd as unless they have special circumstances to justify it the chances are they're just lazy sods who didn't attend lectures and did most of their assingments by copy n pasting from wikipedia and then changing the words to avoid red flagging by plagiarism software, i would consider a 2:2 and 2:1 applicant if they had experence or other key skills which would be of benefit, but i would look further into 1st class candidates as i would want to ensure that they have practical skills and common sense as well as accedemic ability.
In summary, my opinion is that a degree what ever the grade is a small part of an employees profile and any employer who only considers the grade of a degree as the only deciding factor whether a candidate is suitable for employment needs to wake up. one final point i'd like to make is due to such large numbers of people going to uni now there will be a surplus of graduates so in professions where a degree is preffered, applicants with the better grades will certainly be better placed to get work, and i can see that it will soon get to the point where employers are specifying that applicants must have masters this will be the corporate answer to filtering through the mass of graduates. there will always be more people wanting work than businesses looking for workers.

 

[monkey_tennis]

I knew a lot of people who got 3rd Class - and have done very well.

Still, most of them are cun ts!

 

[Liybpg]

One thing I know is that one big bank had an intake of 67 interns, all of them had a 2-1 and were from the top 20 universities.

 

[Wholesale-Dealer]

in my opinion skills matters more than the grade i have seen many graduates in my professional having good grades from reputable universities but they can't match the quality of the skills of some normal students from average universities

 

[sysops]

A third says that the person is either very dim, or totally unmotivated. I would rather hire someone with no degree than someone who has wasted 3 years of their life getting a third.

 

[Jeff FV]

Supply & Demand.

With far more graduates than jobs, recruiters are applying filters. If a degree is a requirement then the first filter will be degree classification and anyone with a 3rd (&, increasingly, a 2-2) will be filtered out at this stage without the application letter being read. If this still leaves a significant pile of candidates then the next filter will be Uni, with possibly anyone who didin't attend Oxbridge or a Russell Group uni being rejected. This may now leave a pile of letters thin enough to be read.

20 years ago - when the number of graduates was far fewer than today - a third was acceptable, but in today's market it is probably not. I would rather employ someone with 3 years work experience - in any form of work, just demonstrating that they can get up & turn up each morning - than someone with a third.

Jeff

 

[leemason]

Most of the people here seem to indicate that it is the person rather than the degree that makes a difference. Or more precisely the skills that person demonstrates. Therefore what does a degree contribute to making the person or their skills right for the job (whatever that job may be)?

 

[benjamin_c]

Most of the people here seem to indicate that it is the person rather than the degree that makes a difference. Or more precisely the skills that person demonstrates. Therefore what does a degree contribute to making the person or their skills right for the job (whatever that job may be)?

It shows transferable skills, there's very few jobs that really need the person to have a degree to be able to do the job, but it's desirable and an easy point of differentiation, it's just that it shows that the applicant has a degree of motivation and determination and aren’t a total retard. From the students point of view holding a degree has an element of prestige to it. Personally i'm in favour of higher education and think that it's good for society as an whole as long as employers look at the bigger picture when in the interview. i'd prefer to employ a graduate over a non graduate if all other factors where the same.

 

[movietub]

Most of the people here seem to indicate that it is the person rather than the degree that makes a difference. Or more precisely the skills that person demonstrates. Therefore what does a degree contribute to making the person or their skills right for the job (whatever that job may be)?

Well a relevant degree, either a 2:1 or a 1st shows that the person is clearly capable of hard work and must have at least most of the skills required for the job they wanted to follow on from their degree. It makes a person a safer bet.

But even then that degree can be trumped by a younger school leaver that spent 2 years doing the job working for peanuts but proving beyond doubt that they can do it well. Show me a certificate that says you can juggle and I'll certainly consider you if I need a juggler. But show me some actual juggling, and you get the job by default.

So the question is not 'does a degree add anything', sure it does. But more people should ask if the degree, even an amazing one, adds more than a number of other things they could do with their time.

 

[fisicx]

Most of the people here seem to indicate that it is the person rather than the degree that makes a difference. Or more precisely the skills that person demonstrates. Therefore what does a degree contribute to making the person or their skills right for the job (whatever that job may be)?

A decent degree indicates an ability to learn, self discipline and some measure of reliability. As already suggested, it is used as an initial filter to shortlist potential candidates.

To answer bizgurls question - a third isn't worth anything. Whoever it was probably had a great time but it's not going to be of any value. Incidentally, what was the subject? My bet it was something arty or media orientated.

 

[KidsBeeHappy]

A third class degree usually indicates that on average they achieved a 40% pass in their papers. Question would be, is 40% a good enough rate for within your business.

 

[movietub]

A third class degree usually indicates that on average they achieved a 40% pass in their papers. Question would be, is 40% a good enough rate for within your business.

A third is basically a negative isn't it! It's an indication that given opportunity, the person in question will waste it. It's unlikely you will find too many business owners/managers that will would even enjoy chatting to someone like that in the pub!

I can't think of a single job where showing you recieved a third would be better than not even mentioning you went to uni. If you are rubbish at something, why would you discuss it on your CV or at interview :|

 

[BizGurl]

The person in question did a forensic science degree, so i'm assuming it may have been pretty tough....but the reason he got a 3rd is that he couldn't attend a lot of it. He's not a drinker, 'waster' or anything but has had ilnness and some pretty dire personal and family problems and even if he did attend, I doubt his mind would have been on work. He's however tried to improve himself since uni by volunteering, working for free, doing additional courses and is not keen on science anymore. But he now feels he's been condemmed for life just because he had a rough few years. I reckon if he got a 2nd chance at uni he'd most probably ace it this time has his problems have eased a lot, but affording uni for a 2nd time is not an option for most people. So I just wondered why employers just condem people without even knowing the story behind it. Not everyone is the same.

At the same time, strangely enough, not everyone goes to uni for the same reasons (I know someone who was very bright, and could have got a decent job straight from college, but went just for the student loan and to have a laugh! She got a good grade, but her motivation was completely wrong), so is a uni grade really a safe way to judge someone?

 

[Astaroth]

It does raise the interesting question of if it is better to try and fail or not to try at all.

Having reviewed 12 CVs this morning, everyone has a degree but not a single one has but the grade down (or if they have the agencies have removed them).

I think what you would do depends on the seniority of the role and the number of applicants you have. The more junior the role and the greater the volume of applications you have received the more chance you would say no because of the 3rd

 

[movietub]

The person in question did a forensic science degree, so i'm assuming it may have been pretty tough....but the reason he got a 3rd is that he couldn't attend a lot of it. He's not a drinker, 'waster' or anything but has had ilnness and some pretty dire personal and family problems and even if he did attend, I doubt his mind would have been on work. He's however tried to improve himself since uni by volunteering, working for free, doing additional courses and is not keen on science anymore. But he now feels he's been condemmed for life just because he had a rough few years. I reckon if he got a 2nd chance at uni he'd most probably ace it this time has his problems have eased a lot, but affording uni for a 2nd time is not an option for most people. So I just wondered why employers just condem people without even knowing the story behind it. Not everyone is the same.

Sure, this story makes a difference. They should in that instance present their 3rd degree to employers and offer it with the story. I personally like people that keep on trying, even though clearly he was too distracted to get good results.

The problem is that no explanation or excuse would help if the job in question wanted specifically a in the field of forensics. By nature that type of work requires 100% efficiency. You cannot turn up at a crime scene and leave with only 40% of the available evidence. This is the sort of career route that relies heavily on training and knowledge gained prior to seeking employment.

At the same time, strangely enough, not everyone goes to uni for the same reasons (I know someone who was very bright, and could have got a decent job straight from college, but went just for the student loan and to have a laugh! She got a good grade, but her motivation was completely wrong), so is a uni grade really a safe way to judge someone?

It's a safe way to judge someone if its good. A person that is hopeless at a subject is not going to get a good degree. But of course a talented person that went 'for a laugh' could get a poor degree. But how are they likely to get judged? Even if they prove by some other means how clever they are, I would still be left worrying that they were inclined to muck about.

 

[BizGurl]

Sure, this story makes a difference. They should in that instance present their 3rd degree to employers and offer it with the story. I personally like people that keep on trying, even though clearly he was too distracted to get good results.

I think this story does make a big difference from the 'lazyitis' students, but how can he offer it up though? He can't write in his covering letter that he went through this and did this and that! If he did I'm pretty sure it would still end up in the bin or the employers eyes would glaze over! He's changed his mind about science now but thinks he will still be over-looked in anything he tries to do. I've tried to encourage him with real cases of 3rd class success stories, such as one of this countries top lawyers who graduated with a 3rd but to no avail.

Would it look suspicious to leave the grade of his CV? If he took uni off it all together, there'd be a gaping 3yr gap!

 

[stuart seller]

I got a 2.2 at uni - basically I went in about 10 times in the whole three years. I used to think that if I got up everyday and did nothing, I would be happy doing that for the rest of my life. When employers have asked me in the past I just come clean and say I spent too much time socialising.

Now I have a masters from UCL, run a business which I started from scratch and have another job as a fully qualified professional earning a tidy sum.

So don't always judge someone by their qualification mark. Similarly, I know plenty of people who came out with 2.1s or 1st and now are unemployed dont know what to do with their lives and lack any business or work acumen to sort it out. Quite frequently you'll find that some people are built for academia, and have phds and what not, but are useless at business or finding an ambition in the working world.

 

[movietub]

I think this story does make a big difference from the 'lazyitis' students, but how can he offer it up though? He can't write in his covering letter that he went through this and did this and that! If he did I'm pretty sure it would still end up in the bin or the employers eyes would glaze over! He's changed his mind about science now but thinks he will still be over-looked in anything he tries to do. I've tried to encourage him with real cases of 3rd class success stories, such as one of this countries top lawyers who graduated with a 3rd but to no avail.

Would it look suspicious to leave the grade of his CV? If he took uni off it all together, there'd be a gaping 3yr gap!

Well yes, he needs to use his brain. You have to be dynamic and choose what to reveal and when, if at all. I wouldn't mention it on a cover letter. I would probably mention it in an interview though, as face to face it would be more than possible to illustrate why he ended up with a 3rd. I could even be spun into a good result, based on the circumstances. And he could already have done the groundwork to make himself suitable for the role without relying on the degree at all.

There are no hard and fast answers to these things, you have to put yourself in the employers shoes and figure out what you cn say about yourself that they will want to hear. It may be your degree, it may be that you're a member of the local chess club or that your dads on the council and you know the person employing you has failed 3 times to get planning permission. Can your dad help? Probably not. Is it worth slipping into the interview if an opportunity arises? Of course!

The young these days spend far too much time worrying about the perfect layout of a CV or the best interview technique. Need to spend more time reading people and situations and reacting on the spot. Master that and you can walk into a situation with no ammunition at all, and walk out with a good deal/job/friend even.

 

[BizGurl]

I got a 2.2 at uni - basically I went in about 10 times in the whole three years. I used to think that if I got up everyday and did nothing, I would be happy doing that for the rest of my life. When employers have asked me in the past I just come clean and say I spent too much time socialising.

Now I have a masters from UCL, run a business which I started from scratch and have another job as a fully qualified professional earning a tidy sum.

So don't always judge someone by their qualification mark. Similarly, I know plenty of people who came out with 2.1s or 1st and now are unemployed dont know what to do with their lives and lack any business or work acumen to sort it out. Quite frequently you'll find that some people are built for academia, and have phds and what not, but are useless at business or finding an ambition in the working world.

Hats off to you for getting a 2.2 for doing that little over 3 whole years

I only just managed a 2.1 but worked my butt off for it, but I reckon I worked too damn hard for that grade, when others found it easy, which suggests to me I really wasn't cut out for uni. If I'd slacked even a bit more I'd probably have got a 3rd or near miss.

Back to the subject though, I do think it's a shame that employers don't look at the 'whole package'. A grade that someone got as a young daft student shouldn't ruin the rest of someones life...

What makes someone that extra 'special' if working for free/volunteering has no impact? I mean, anyone can volunteer so that's not really exclusive to students/graduates is it?

How can someone persuade an employer on CV that they CAN do a job, even though theres a '3:0 class honours' listed?

 

[movietub]

How can someone persuade an employer on CV that they CAN do a job, even though theres a '3:0 class honours' listed?

Is this by any chance your 3:0 grade??


I really don't see why 'a person' would list the 3rd degree. Just say 'they' went travelling or lived with family overseas for a while. Whatever. Unless there is a realistic reason the degree is important then why use it? There are other ways 'your friend' could no doubt impress.

No one on here could answer the question without knowing a lot more about the job, the candidate and the company looking to hire.

 

[BizGurl]

Is this by any chance your 3:0 grade??


I really don't see why 'a person' would list the 3rd degree. Just say 'they' went travelling or lived with family overseas for a while. Whatever. Unless there is a realistic reason the degree is important then why use it? There are other ways 'your friend' could no doubt impress.

No one on here could answer the question without knowing a lot more about the job, the candidate and the company looking to hire.

I scraped a 2.1 (with much struggling) last year FYI in graphics/advertising
I'm also working (thanks to some sound CV advice from guys on here) and have not found my grade to be an issue at all.
My previous issues you may find by going through my old posts had been lack of experience.
If you'd like, I'll meet you in person to show you my certificate (and transcript, thats the important bit) (and im not kidding)

My dear friend got his grade this year and has all but given up on life!
The guy in question studied forensics and thinks its his grade holding him back from getting interviews. He actually has more work-life experience than me. He only finished in May and already knew what grade he'd have, but he swears thats whats done it. Im just trying o help a friend whats wrong with that?

Also, I'm not trying to find out about specific jobs (not even i know exactly what jobs he's gone for), i just want to know employers general opinions on grades in general.

 

[dlitc78]

Interesting topic - most people have made valid points, and a lot of how strict you would be depends on how large a group of applicants you've got.

Personally I do look at grades right away. I find it hard to entertain hiring someone who didn't do very well at school or uni, but that's just because it's far removed from my own experience. I am an example of an extremely lazy, unmotivated person who didn't go to lectures for months at a time, skimmed the textbook on the morning of the exam and perhaps by some rare administrative error I ended up with a 1st.

So getting a 1st certainly doesn't mean they "worked hard".

Not that hard work is any use in itself, of course.

Anyway my experience through school and uni tells me, above all, that I am simply very good at conventional academic assessments, and many other people are not. My business does not involve answering exam questions, so I'm not precisely interested in how good someone is at that. Certainly my particular set of skills are of barely any use in my current business.


hmm. I place a lot more weight on how well written their email and CV is, actually. I don't care much what the covering letter says, just a few lines introducing the fact that they are applying for a job, but the words they use and how it's phrased are important to me.


And to finish, come to think of it, the only guy I've actually hired I never even asked what he did at uni - I just like how he spoke and could tell he was a clever chap who would enjoy the job and be able to work how I wanted him to.

 

[Craig HelpTrainingCourses]

It is hard not to take qualifications ito account - I think if they look good on there cv and you have a good gut feel go with it and interview them.

Maybe if you think they are right for the job but just not quit convinced you could ask them to do a work trial for free for a couple of weeks - I have done this several times

 

[boogs]

It makes absolutely no difference whatsoever in my opinion. Some of the most stupid people I have ever worked with had "good" degrees. The most useless person I ever worked with in the IT industry years ago had a PhD computer science but not one ounce of common sense.

 

[S-Marketing]

A third says that the person is either very dim, or totally unmotivated. I would rather hire someone with no degree than someone who has wasted 3 years of their life getting a third.

Completely agree.

If you are dim enough or lazy enough to get a third you would be better off telling potential employers you didn't go to Uni, but went off on your travels or something.

Having no degree at all is much better than getting a third.

 

[BizGurl]

Completely agree.

If you are dim enough or lazy enough to get a third you would be better off telling potential employers you didn't go to Uni, but went off on your travels or something.

Having no degree at all is much better than getting a third.

Thats quite funny you've just said that, as I'm wondering how you would feel if someone lied to you like that and you found out?? Would you sack them? It's kind of you're own advice

I'm not talking about someone who is dim or lazy, but someone who had problems and lots of them....automatically chucked into the waste bin!

 

[S-Marketing]

Thats quite funny you've just said that, as I'm wondering how you would feel if someone lied to you like that and you found out?? Would you sack them? It's kind of you're own advice

I'm not talking about someone who is dim or lazy, but someone who had problems and lots of them....automatically chucked into the waste bin!

Thats a very good point. I wouldn't take kindly to someone who lied on their CV. If it were me with the third though, thats what I would do.

It is very difficult for your friend, in the field they want to work a degree is the way in which you prove you have the skills and knowledge to do the job. A third demonstrates he has neither. I think the only thing to do would be to try again and get a better grade.