Working With A Bookkeeper

[Angel123]

Considering the option of outsourcing the bookkeeping .

The one thing I cant 'get my head around' is a safe way of working as regards paying our suppliers. If the bookkeeper is just going to give me a monthly list of confirmed payments to make, then this still requires the business to have some resource, available at the right time to do it. Alternatively, if the bookkeeper is given access to our business bank account then how do we protect ourselves?

Our accounting system is Sage Line 50 (aka Sage 50 Accounts) and I dont believe it allows a bookkeeper to setup payments for someone else to trigger. Can see any other software on the internet that would allow this.

Assume this is a common issue and I would be interested as to how others do this.

 

[Joyous]

Sounds to me like you're looking for an accounts payable clerk rather than a bookkeeper. I've never known a bookkeeper have anything more than "read only" access to a client's bank account. One of my clients wanted to give me access to their bank account and I gave a firm NO as the risk just isn't worth it.

Others may disagree with me but in my view making actual payments is outside the remit of a standard bookkeeper.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Not sure you why you need a bookkeeper to make the payments unless your business is quite large, but to answer your question why not ask the Bookkeeper to give you a list of payments and when due, so you can pay by bank transfer yourself. I do suggest you learn line 50 yourself as there is so much date you can extract from it that helps you with a massive help in running your company. you don't have to get rid of the Bookkeeper, but always be able to run it yourself in case of need in the future. Also lots that can be networked in to automatically to make things like stock control and so on near automatic

 

[mahad]

Xero offers detailed user roles and permissions. You can set up a role where a bookkeeper prepares the payments, and another role where a manager or owner approves and authorizes them.

 

[WaveJumper]

Xero offers detailed user roles and permissions. You can set up a role where a bookkeeper prepares the payments, and another role where a manager or owner approves and authorizes them.

Or even make use of the Xero AI and don't employ anyone

 

[DontAsk]

You make the payments and tell the bookkeeper what you have paid. All they do is keep the books straight.

If you don't have the time, employ someone to manage your payments.

 

[Daybooks]

You need to determine exactly what service you want.

It can either be retrospectively recording everything you have done or proactively dealing with items as they occur or on a weekly or monthly resolution.

If you want them to process your bank items rather than just advise what you should consider paying then they’ll need access to your banking facilities.
In this case you should use a bank that has the facility for import of payments combined with scheduling for a future date and dual authorisation.

This will currently rule out the “challenger” banks. Do your homework as what the banks give as headline facilities can be misleading when you drill down into the detail.

 

[numbersrule]

Hi Angel123

The below thread is over 10 years old and the banks options will no doubt have evolved, but this shows where you need to be directing your attention.

Employees Access to Business Bank Account??

Hi, I run a relatively small business and at the moment do most of the paperwork myself. We recently acquired another business and became Limited, and now it seems as though I'm getting bogged down with more paperwork such as supplier payments/employee PAYE etc. I'd like to delegate some of...

www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk

I agree with Joyous. You should not be giving access to any external entities such as independent bookkeepers.

However, a bookkeeper in an employed role may take part in a multi-person approvals process from inside your organisation.

You need to give permissions to people that not only you trust but also people that you can direct and control.

 

[Deleted member 356896]

I probably pay approx 50 invoices a month and takes me less than 30 mins a week to manage myself.

I create a payment file from my accounting software for all supplier payments due. This loads to my bank, makes the payments and makes the transactions as paid.

The above is for manual payments. For the rest I pay by direct debit and the accounts software auto tags the payment and posts it to the right place.

I also have a ADF scanner for the documents.

I’d look at systems first to streamline your process. If with this it’s still taking more time than you can allocate look to recruit someone. If you do make sure they don’t gold brick the job. If this only takes 1 day a week to do allocate them some other work to keep them busy or hire part time.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Sounds to me like you're looking for an accounts payable clerk rather than a bookkeeper. I've never known a bookkeeper have anything more than "read only" access to a client's bank account. One of my clients wanted to give me access to their bank account and I gave a firm NO as the risk just isn't worth it.

Others may disagree with me but in my view making actual payments is outside the remit of a standard bookkeeper.

I agree entirely.

 

[Angel123]

Thank you everyone for the advice above.

I have concluded that I neither want nor need to give a bookkeeper bank access. Sage 50 Accounts allows supplier's invoices to be paid from within the accounts package.

 

[Daybooks]

Thank you everyone for the advice above.

I have concluded that I neither want nor need to give a bookkeeper bank access. Sage 50 Accounts allows supplier's invoices to be paid from within the accounts package.

Are you sure it is "from within the software"?
Unless it has changed in recent times you would export the payment file from SAGE and then import to your banking software. Am sure the integrated / seamless approach must be coming but didn't think it was here just yet.

 

[numbersrule]

Are you sure it is "from within the software"?
Unless it has changed in recent times you would export the payment file from SAGE and then import to your banking software. Am sure the integrated / seamless approach must be coming but didn't think it was here just yet.

I agree with Pi Daybooks
Certainly for Xero, when you process payments inside Xero you are taken to your bank's online login and you have to use your login credentials to complete the process. I assume therefore that you would have to set up the multiple user approvals process with your bank if you wish the multiple approvals process to function correctly from inside the accounting software. Don't expect any easy ways round this because it's not meant to be easy.

What is more, I think most softwares apply a transaction charge for privilege of being able to 'process' a transaction from within the software for which you are compelled to log on to your bank anyway. When I discovered this I decided to stop using the 'payment processing feature.

 

[WaveJumper]

AI in Accounting

Examples of AI in accounting, Advantages and disadvantages, Can AI replace accountants, How to stay relevant with AI, Embracing opportunities.

www.xero.com

 

[numbersrule]

AI in Accounting

Examples of AI in accounting, Advantages and disadvantages, Can AI replace accountants, How to stay relevant with AI, Embracing opportunities.

www.xero.com

Hi Wave Jumper

As the article describes AI currently is mostly deployed in predictive processing during bank reconciliation and also predictions assisting with cash flow forecasting. But there is still a clear need for human intervention and interpretation, particularly when providing human insight for the purpose of advising on business decisions/strategy.
AI is still a long way from replacing good Accounting and Bookkeeping Business Insight.
Although, I don't dispute, that may happen in the future because the thought processes attached to the interpretation of accounting data will undoubtedly become reproducible.

Having said all this, I am not sure why you think AI is relevant to this thread because AI certainly has not replaced Safe & Secure Access to Bank Accounts.

Yet.

 

[WaveJumper]

Hi Wave Jumper

As the article describes AI currently is mostly deployed in predictive processing during bank reconciliation and also predictions assisting with cash flow forecasting. But there is still a clear need for human intervention and interpretation, particularly when providing human insight for the purpose of advising on business decisions/strategy.
AI is still a long way from replacing good Accounting and Bookkeeping Business Insight.
Although, I don't dispute, that may happen in the future because the thought processes attached to the interpretation of accounting data will undoubtedly become reproducible.

Having said all this, I am not sure why you think AI is relevant to this thread because AI certainly has not replaced Safe & Secure Access to Bank Accounts.

Yet.

No but if AI lines up all those items which need paying after it has already sorted and allocated it to the relevant accounting codes for you all you need to do is scan through the schedule and confirm payments AI don’t need bank access but sorry bookkeeper it cuts out the need for the human touch

 

[Daybooks]

No but if AI lines up all those items which need paying after it has already sorted and allocated it to the relevant accounting codes for you all you need to do is scan through the schedule and confirm payments AI don’t need bank access but sorry bookkeeper it cuts out the need for the human touch

The supposed artificial intelligence is often just improved automation. However the accounts are the responsibility of its owners and the buck stops there. AI is therefore just another tool at one’s disposal.

If you want an example of where over reliance on technology has devastating consequences when not checked by individuals with the ability to think for themselves then I would encourage you to read anyone of the far too many Subpostmasters‘ Witness Statements in the Post Office Horizon Inquiry.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[numbersrule]

No but if AI lines up all those items which need paying after it has already sorted and allocated it to the relevant accounting codes for you all you need to do is scan through the schedule and confirm payments AI don’t need bank access but sorry bookkeeper it cuts out the need for the human touch

I have not been a bookkeeper for long, but my experience with a limited number of varied Clients to date suggests to me that computerisation or automation or whatever you wish to call it, is actually generating more work for bookkeepers, not less.

 

[fisicx]

The supposed artificial intelligence is often just improved automation.

^^^^This!

Most AI isn’t anything of the sort. It’s machine learning. Very clever but not AI.

 

[mahad]

^^^^This!

Most AI isn’t anything of the sort. It’s machine learning. Very clever but not AI.

I think you confuse Artificial Intelligence with Artificial Consciousness, they might seem the same but completely different.

Intellifence means to be able to learn and apply the learned knowledge,
Consciousness on the other hand is the abillity to be aware of onself, which AI is not, because it's an Intelligence not Consciousness.

 

[fisicx]

Not confused at all. The AI moniker has been bolted onto all and sundry even when it’s not appropriate. It’s Machine Learning in most cases.

General AI is years away, the ability of a machine to learn without prompts.

 

[mahad]

Not confused at all. The AI moniker has been bolted onto all and sundry even when it’s not appropriate. It’s Machine Learning in most cases.

General AI is years away, the ability of a machine to learn without prompts.

Well I get your point now that you said General AI, that's basically a near to human behaviour, but you're quite pesimistic about ML. ML is itself a subfield of AI and we have quite advanced ML like face recognition or even self-driving algorithms in cars, so yeah,
general AI - far away,
Advanced ML - here already

 

[fisicx]

No im not pessimistic about ML. There are many benefits to using the technology. My argument is it’s often used inappropriately or the moniker AI is added to functions that aren’t. Or when it is used the outputs are wrong, misleading and sometimes dangerous. Like suggesting using glue to stick cheese to a pizza base.

Just look at how deepfakes are being used to mislead and skew opinion.

 

[Daybooks]

^^^^This!

Most AI isn’t anything of the sort. It’s machine learning. Very clever but not AI.

That was the point of the comment!

 

[DontAsk]

I think you confuse Artificial Intelligence with Artificial Consciousness, they might seem the same but completely different.

Intellifence means to be able to learn and apply the learned knowledge,
Consciousness on the other hand is the abillity to be aware of onself, which AI is not, because it's an Intelligence not Consciousness.

AI doesn't learn in anything like the way an intelligent being does. It learns to predict what word to use next when generating a response to a prompt.

 

[NickGrogan]

Consciousness on the other hand is the abillity to be aware of onself,

Do you think chatGPT is not aware of chatGPT?

AI doesn't learn in anything like the way an intelligent being does. It learns to predict what word to use next when generating a response to a prompt.

How different is this to a person?

 

[WaveJumper]

Like all things what ever we wish to cal it ML or AI I would suggest like many "new things" which come along unless you embarrass it in some form or another you risk being left behind. If it can help your business then I suggest learning to use it can't be a bad thing.

Monitoring what it does has to be a basic function of your day today management of your business, certainly if incorporated into your business accounting processes. Great for me (as somehow I had become unpaid bookkeeper for my sons business) no day to day sorting invoices etc on Xero for me anymore and going by what he tells me it saves him the on going cost of employing someone to do it.

Taking on board the Bookeepers comments above I am totally amazed at the amount of threads we get where people have tied themselves in knots with their accounts, only looking at them at the end of the year (and hoping for the best) although seeming dishing out Divi's every month, and then we those still relying on spread sheets and not even embracing the current crop of accounting software out there..

Checking your accounts and where your company stand daily, weekly or even at the end of the month (depending on the size of the business) seems sensible to me and god forbid having a regular meetings with the accountant might stop a lot of the grief we see on the forum from posters

So in short embarrass the change......... and hopefully the AI robot will be advanced enough to tend to my needs when I can no longer get out my chair.

 

[DontAsk]

Do you think chatGPT is not aware of chatGPT?

No. ChatGPT is not self-aware.

How different is this to a person?

Very.

 

[MeAndMyAi]

Like all things what ever we wish to cal it ML or AI I would suggest like many "new things" which come along unless you embarrass it in some form or another you risk being left behind. If it can help your business then I suggest learning to use it can't be a bad thing.

Monitoring what it does has to be a basic function of your day today management of your business, certainly if incorporated into your business accounting processes. Great for me (as somehow I had become unpaid bookkeeper for my sons business) no day to day sorting invoices etc on Xero for me anymore and going by what he tells me it saves him the on going cost of employing someone to do it.

Taking on board the Bookeepers comments above I am totally amazed at the amount of threads we get where people have tied themselves in knots with their accounts, only looking at them at the end of the year (and hoping for the best) although seeming dishing out Divi's every month, and then we those still relying on spread sheets and not even embracing the current crop of accounting software out there..

Checking your accounts and where your company stand daily, weekly or even at the end of the month (depending on the size of the business) seems sensible to me and god forbid having a regular meetings with the accountant might stop a lot of the grief we see on the forum from posters

So in short embarrass the change......... and hopefully the AI robot will be advanced enough to tend to my needs when I can no longer get out my chair.

Spot on buddy, I literally built a demo website the other day, using a few of the AI tools I have, in under two hours. I'd spend longer for a client, more tweaks etc. But the AI tools I am using are literally wiping 80% of the work load off of me. The only way AI messes up is due to the human not asking the right questions, prompts or not directing it on it's task properly. Spent a long time getting it right, now I'm literally twiddling my thumbs out of boredom and keeping myself out of mischief due to the extra time on my hands!

Just finishing up a huge site, usually around £25k+ done for way less than half that, it'll be finished this week at a month, it's a 4-5 month build usually with a good development team.

AI used correctly, is phenomenal! If every single powerhouse on the planet is using it, some random small business owner in the UK hating on it, will get left behind and then blame big tech instead of embracing it.


Love it!

 

[fisicx]

But it's not the answer to everything. As IBM are finding out:

IBM AI simply not up to the job of replacing staff

So say our sources, who warn job cuts, outsourcing risk depriving biz of seasoned technical talent

www.theregister.com

What I've used AI for is API integration. What used to take hours I can now do in minutes. As you say, getting the prompts right is half the battle.

 

[MeAndMyAi]

But it's not the answer to everything. As IBM are finding out:

XXXXX

What I've used AI for is API integration. What used to take hours I can now do in minutes. As you say, getting the prompts right is half the battle.

Nothing ever is, you guys pump your fuel. Where I am they still hire staff to do it for you. Petrol pumps took jobs away from people, self checkouts are taking jobs away from people, emails took jobs away from people, the list goes on.

And for Bookkeeping and Accounting, I'd say AI is going to master that easily, ex staff at Revolut is already doing AI Accounting Software. Embrace or fade away... it's sad, but we have to embrace these things, unlike Littlewoods, Woolworths (they ignored changes to digital music), Kodak etc. And age as old as time.

 

[TidyM]

Considering the option of outsourcing the bookkeeping .

The one thing I cant 'get my head around' is a safe way of working as regards paying our suppliers. If the bookkeeper is just going to give me a monthly list of confirmed payments to make, then this still requires the business to have some resource, available at the right time to do it. Alternatively, if the bookkeeper is given access to our business bank account then how do we protect ourselves?

Our accounting system is Sage Line 50 (aka Sage 50 Accounts) and I dont believe it allows a bookkeeper to setup payments for someone else to trigger. Can see any other software on the internet that would allow this.

Assume this is a common issue and I would be interested as to how others do this.

They don't really work with Sage Line 50 but if you considered a cloud software, you could look at the likes of Crezco (Crezco.com) or Mimo (MimoHQ.com)

These are all accounts payable functions that allow a bookkeeper or accountant to schedule payments from your bank but where you still retain final approval.

I.e. Your bookkeeper would set up all the payments and send a link to you to authorise payment through the bank.

They all have a cost but get round the issue of giving a third party any control to your bank.