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Why is there suffering in the world ?

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DotNetWebs

<Mod Note: Thread split from the Intelligent Design / Evolution thread>

http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=7749

Hayles said:
I never did get an answer (apart from MacmyDay) on why the Tsunami happened. I really would be interested in your replies please?
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I mentioned the Tsunami earlier in this thread. Basically it was triggered by the sudden release of some 200 years of tension that had built up between two tectonic plates under the Indian Ocean. This caused the sea floor to be raised (instantly) over 40 feet along a fault line several hundred miles long.

Here are some useful links that explain this in more detail:

BBC animation of the Boxing Day Tsunami:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/4136289.stm

More detailed description of how tsunamis form:

http://geology.com/articles/tsunami-geology.shtml

Regards

Dotty
 
Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?
 
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Mac's right Dotty. I don't understand how it could happen if there is a God who has the capabilities of performing miracles. As I said before, what God would stand by and watch tens of thousands of innocent children drown through no fault of their own (or through the actions of any human 'sinners')?
 
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It comes down to a theolgoical view on the actual control God has over the planet (known as the agency of God) and how much free will we have.

It's really a long long drawn out debate/discussion, I can go into greater depth if required but i'm not sure here is the place.

Gary
 
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The answer you will hear everytime, Hayles, is the freewill debate. Yet it prompts the question that if, by the Christian standard, God is omniscient (knowing everything, future/ present/past), why would God create such a world where such suffering can take place? If you do indeed need suffering in the world to have pleasure, it would stipulate that a balance is required, and therefore the Tsnuami/Holocaust have resulted in an equal balance of happiness, or more happiness, than the suffering which took place.

I feel that would be a hard point to argue
 
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Yes Tom it is a tricky one, but lets say for a moment God creted the planet and said ok you guys here's a plan how you should look after this thing, like most humons we didnt bother with the instructions and so it broke.

Is God to blame for for the suffering if we didn't/still don't follow the instructions?

The God is omniscient relies on our understanding of time, we can't get past the understandign of time and so understanding true omnicienty is a toughie.

An intersting debate/question.
 
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creospace said:
Yes Tom it is a tricky one, but lets say for a moment God creted the planet and said ok you guys here's a plan how you should look after this thing, like most humons we didnt bother with the instructions and so it broke.

Is God to blame for for the suffering if we didn't/still don't follow the instructions?
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I can see that argument working for the Holocaust, all the terrible murders and attacks, and, if we believe in global warming, the New Orleans flooding which could be blamed on humans. But I don't see how the argument works for the Tsunami which was totally due to nature?
 
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Your right and if i'm honest I don't have any answers to hand, none that can be argued, trodden on or give peace etc

There are plenty out there who think they have all the answers, they even know the end of the earth which to me is amazing :)

I guess that's just my faith coming into play and every day I learn more about the goodness of God.

One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary
 
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Also, if there is freewill, how are we supposed to know of what God wants from us? Mankind existed before the Bible. There is John Hicks epistemic distance argument that says God must remain at a specific distance so God does not interfer with our lives, but more questions are opened by this than answered.
 
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creospace said:
One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary
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Absolutely. You're unlikely to hear of 200,000 people winning the lottery or coming back to life, and even then the coverage wouldn't be anywhere near as prominant as a disaster where religion is questioned time after time for the reasons of God.
 
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As you say, it boils down to having faith - and I sincerely wish I had it.

But I can't 'get' faith without answers.... :cry:
 
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MacMyDay said:
Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?
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Oops, sorry it was a bit early in the morning for me, I didn't bother to read her original post. :oops:

Regards

Dotty

ps I can' t answer that one!
 
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Sorry, Hayles, as much as I'd love to present the other side of the argument, I feel so strongly against it that it'd be so biased and wouldn't really present a fair view.
 
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MacMyDay said:
creospace said:
One thing I do find interesting is that when somehting bad really happens the interest in God suddenly goes through the roof!

Gary
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Absolutely. You're unlikely to hear of 200,000 people winning the lottery or coming back to life, and even then the coverage wouldn't be anywhere near as prominant as a disaster where religion is questioned time after time for the reasons of God.
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Hi Mac - would you say that the question is raised at the time of the disaster by people that believe in God or don't?

And why?

Rob
 
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Matrixx said:
Hi Mac - would you say that the question is raised at the time of the disaster by people that believe in God or don't?

And why?

Rob
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I believe the question is likely to be asked by agnostics rather than simple atheists. The atheist has nothing to gain in questioning the benevolent God, unless they're pressured into believing or have close ties to religion without their desired intension. The agnostic is uncertain, more likely through their own volition, as to what direction they wish to aim toward. There were a lot of debates on the BBC about the Tsnuami and God just afterwards, and in that case it is the use of the media to prompt the question.
It might shake many people's faith in the concept of a benevolent God, but I suspect for the large majority, they will already have battled this concept with the simple leap of faith.
 
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I think we need a mod to split this thread into two - otherwise it's going to get into a mess - interesting tho' it is.

My 2p worth.

You can say anything you like about God, his motives and his plans. It really doesn't matter because not one word of it can be backed by any evidence.

If you believe God created the earth and gave us freedom of action and typhoid you can, and no-one can prove any differently.
 
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LOL :lol:

It looks like I started a thread questioning God's motives, it was a complete accident I thought I was talking about Geology!

Regards

Dotty

ps Can you out my second post, about Snowdon, back with the original; thread? Or maybe Steve can answer it here.
 
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DotNetWebs said:
LOL :lol:

It looks like I started a thread questioning God's motives, it was a complete accident I thought I was talking about Geology!

Regards

Dotty

ps Can you out my second post, about Snowdon, back with the original; thread? Or maybe Steve can answer it here.
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Yes just for the record the phpbb software uses the person posting when threads are split as the thread starter so technically although Dotty started the theme that got split away from the main thread theme he didn't start this thread.

Maybe PM Steve and ask him to look here to answer your question :)

Rob
 
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Mod is God
 
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The reason there is suffering is because that is the way the world works. Even if you made it so that everyone lived a healthy happy life you still couldn't stop the laws of physics killing people.

It's a by product of the way life works.
 
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One thing worth pondering is that the more educated we become and the more developed our economy and society gets, the less obvious suffering there is.

If you have a faith you might ask why God seems to save the worst for those that have the least?
 
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cjd said:
One thing worth pondering is that the more educated we become and the more developed our economy and society gets, the less obvious suffering there is.

If you have a faith you might ask why God seems to save the worst for those that have the least?
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Could it be worth also asking God if it is They who are causing the suffering, or the counterpart, Satan? :-)

many ppl run to blame god over these factors. Blame god for the Tsunami, Earthquakes, hurricanes etc. many seem to forget that there is an evil force that is free to reak havoc on the earth. Satan

another way of looking at world suffering might be to add that perhaps the disasters we have had this year are a warning from God. A shocker to see how easily life can be lost?
And to add that worse could happen if we don;t shape our ideas up?

Another thing people seem to forget is that WE don't own this Planet. It is on loan to us. It is not ours to abuse as we do. As we continue to do.
Driving countless species to animal to extinction. Now i know ppl are working to save them, but its not the same is it.

Let me say now, i feel nothing but remorse for those who have suffered from the above mentioned this year, and indeed continue to suffer.

Al
 
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well, said al i was just about to say that. this is a point that i try to get over all the time!

most people seem to think yes lets blame god, but christianity also has the Devil GOOD AND BAD. What is not to say the devil isn't the cause of all this, and god is there picking up the pieces making all these kind british people donate millions of pounds to rebuild the destruction caused by the devil?
 
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MacMyDay said:
Dotty, Hayles was asking it based on a theological perspective; i.e. why did it happen if there is a God?
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If we all evolved from squat and there is no God, who cares about the tsunami? It was a statistical blip on an eternal radar. The fittest survived.

If, on the other hand, we feel love for others, can understand sympathy and empathy, and cry when we witness such horrific suffering, maybe there is more to it all.
 
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cjd said:
You can say anything you like about God, his motives and his plans. It really doesn't matter because not one word of it can be backed by any evidence.
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Guess who's going to be the contrarian? :)

If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.
 
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goldctrsteve said:
"Wow, what beauty that person demonstrates. Isn't it amazing how we evolved to create such beauty."

"Wow, what a terrible disaster. How can God allow such as thing?"

It's all a bit one-sided.
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You've picked on one example that, as I was saying before, the atheist is far more unlikely to say. I for one wouldn't say it, as I have no belief in even the concept of God. The concept would arise as a matter of debate when pondering how the existence of this loving God can come about by those who have something to gain by asking the question. It is a redundant question for me to ask, as it holds no actual meaning to ponder how a non-existent entity (in my opinion) can allow anything.
 
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goldctrsteve said:
If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.
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You'll not be surprised to hear that I'm not at all impressed.

God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds. Why choose "strange and mysterious ways" that don't prove anything?
 
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cjd said:
God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds.
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Well why doesn't He? Surely He is aware of all the consternation and controversy surrounding Him? But why then do you say 'IF' He existed?

Cheers, Nigel
 
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He's probably edging his bets, like me :lol:

Don't want the big Guy to think I 'dissed' him (is that the word Urban?), if he's watching me.... :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
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I tend to look at the evidence, from multiple straind of sources.

Let me ask you this
Do you not think there is more to you than just the bones, blood, and cells that all go together to make you up?
Do you not think it amazing that every person was created differently.

I have been related to members of the medical profession for too long to ignore the stories they tell about patients seeing nuns or angels before they die.
Or even seeing themselves rise from their own bodies, seeing ppl struggling to save them as they pass away.
Ok and we have also heard about the white light.

I have heard to much and spoken to too many ppl now to say all this is crap.
If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.

I do not believe ppl should pass onto hell purely for not believing, but all the evidence does make you wonder. See ppl i do not just believe blindly i have my reasons for believing.
Would u like to take that chance?

Al
 
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Asteeleleith said:
If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.
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Why is your day of judgement at death? Surely this would therefore assume that death has a purpose, and is not a cause of simple biology. Why must I be judged at that moment? Surely facing the things you did wrong whilst you were alive would make sense, and that would be a greater reason to change. Fear of God should never be your reason for alteration, and my judgement will be decided by my own guilt, not that "given" to me.

My pass will not be into heaven or hell, but into success or failure - deemed only by myself. All that you have said is the basis of extrapolation from common psychology into unknown, unprovable concepts.
 
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cjd said:
goldctrsteve said:
If God exists outside of time and space, what is the only credible way he can demonstrate his existence to creatures that live within time and space? By conveying a message in such a way that proves he is outside of time, right? This is why prophecies are so important. There are hundreds of them. Some of them, with origins proved to be from antiquity, refer to future events and were shown to be accurate to the very day. While we cannot prove anything, it's quite logical to infer from this. You have to admit that it's quite impressive.
Click to expand...

You'll not be surprised to hear that I'm not at all impressed.

God is God. If he existed and wished to demonstrate his existence he could do it a million ways that would leave no doubt in anyone's minds. Why choose "strange and mysterious ways" that don't prove anything?
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There's nothing mysterious about some of them. One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.
 
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