Why is there suffering in the world ?

[Asteeleleith]

If you have the guts to doubt God as some of you do this is fine, but i for one would worry wen my day of judgement comes. This is the day you die, and u have to face up to all the things you did wrong. Deciding wether you are to pass into heaven or indeed to hell.

Why is your day of judgement at death? Surely this would therefore assume that death has a purpose, and is not a cause of simple biology. Why must I be judged at that moment? Surely facing the things you did wrong whilst you were alive would make sense, and that would be a greater reason to change. Fear of God should never be your reason for alteration, and my judgement will be decided by my own guilt, not that "given" to me.

My pass will not be into heaven or hell, but into success or failure - deemed only by myself. All that you have said is the basis of extrapolation from common psychology into unknown, unprovable concepts.

All i can say is one day one of us wil be proven right, the other wrong

Al

 

[cjd]

There's nothing mysterious about some of them.
One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.

The debunking of prophecy is a wonderful subject that I'd happily take up in another thread - it's quite simply amazing how things written before the fact, which were utterly incomprehensible at the time of prophesy, become explicable in hindsight. It's phenomenon called shoehorning.

Wikepedia Definition:

"Shoehorning is a ploy alleged by skeptics to be used by psychics as a way to make it sound like their prophecies or those of earlier prophets had come true. The process involves taking an earlier prophecy and attempting to affix a current event to it, with the event apparently "fulfilling" the prophecy, even though this has been realized after the fact. Shoehorned prophecies usually take vague prophecies and twist them to "mean" the event in question even if the evidence for the connection is shaky. Also, many psychics, such as James van Praagh, are accused of stating after the fact that they had predicted the event, even if evidence proves otherwise, also being an example of retroactive clairvoyance.

Some famous shoehorned prophecies include:

* The Bible Code
* Many prophecies of Nostradamus
* Other September 11 prophecies, particularly by van Praagh, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
* Prophecy of the Popes"

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

 

[Cornish Steve]

There's nothing mysterious about some of them.
One prophecy, for example, claims that Israel's messiah would enter Jerusalem 'seventy weeks of years' after Darius declared a particular edict. Someone in the 1910s did the calculation and figured out that the date corresponds to what we know as Palm Sunday. I'd say this is rather precise.

This is just one of hundreds of instances. If you look into them carefully, they really are quite impressive.

The debunking of prophecy is a wonderful subject that I'd happily take up in another thread - it's quite simply amazing how things written before the fact, which were utterly incomprehensible at the time of prophesy, become explicable in hindsight. It's phenomenon called shoehorning.

Wikepedia Definition:

"Shoehorning is a ploy alleged by skeptics to be used by psychics as a way to make it sound like their prophecies or those of earlier prophets had come true. The process involves taking an earlier prophecy and attempting to affix a current event to it, with the event apparently "fulfilling" the prophecy, even though this has been realized after the fact. Shoehorned prophecies usually take vague prophecies and twist them to "mean" the event in question even if the evidence for the connection is shaky. Also, many psychics, such as James van Praagh, are accused of stating after the fact that they had predicted the event, even if evidence proves otherwise, also being an example of retroactive clairvoyance.

Some famous shoehorned prophecies include:

* The Bible Code
* Many prophecies of Nostradamus
* Other September 11 prophecies, particularly by van Praagh, Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson
* Prophecy of the Popes"

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

You're dismissing something without taking the time to look carefully. If you wish, let me quote this one specific prophecy (proved to have been written BC) and you can calculate dates yourself. You're also welcome to come up with alternative meanings if you think the wording is unclear.

I'm not trying to promote any agenda here. While I admit that thousands of people have made their fortunes by guessing the fortunes of others, or coming up with mysterious predictions that could mean anything, there are some prophecies in ancient texts that are incredibly precise. They are worth looking at.

 

[cjd]

You're dismissing something without taking the time to look carefully. If you wish, let me quote this one specific prophecy (proved to have been written BC) and you can calculate dates yourself. You're also welcome to come up with alternative meanings if you think the wording is unclear.

I'm not trying to promote any agenda here. While I admit that thousands of people have made their fortunes by guessing the fortunes of others, or coming up with mysterious predictions that could mean anything, there are some prophecies in ancient texts that are incredibly precise. They are worth looking at.

Fine make another thread on prophecy; happy to kick it around.

But the point we are discussing is more general

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

 

[Cornish Steve]

To quote another source, some people will never be convinced.

One religious leader performed miracles and then the ultimate act: being raised from the dead. What more could he do? Almost all of his close friends and many thousands of other eye witnesses were killed for believing in his power, which goes a long way to prove that he was not faking it. How many people take the time today to look seriously into the claims? Because they don't fit well with the philosophy of the day, they're casually dismissed.

As for compassion, let me follow up on someone else's point. Let's imagine for the moment that the world is broken (there's enough evidence to draw this conclusion). Let's also assume that its creator is not broken. In order not to become part of the brokenness, there is only so much that the creator can do. The most important thing, however, is to provide the means for repair.

In this light, natural disasters are going to happen and are a result of brokenness (not just personal, but universal). The result is that some people lose their lives a few years before they would lose them anyway (I don't mean to sound callous in writing this). The bigger question is this: Is everyone prepared for what happens next?

 

[cjd]

As for compassion, let me follow up on someone else's point. Let's imagine for the moment that the world is broken (there's enough evidence to draw this conclusion). Let's also assume that its creator is not broken. In order not to become part of the brokenness, there is only so much that the creator can do.

You seem to be saying that this God is imperfect and not all powerful. He made a flawed (broken) product and can't fix it. That's not the God I was taught about at school.

The bigger question is this: Is everyone prepared for what happens next?

You big tease; go on tell us!

 

[CG Effect]

Their is no god!

 

[freecybermag]

Anyway my original point was that if God wanted to make it clear to us beyond doubt of his existence he would do so - it wouldn't be hard at all would it? Even I could be convinced in minutes. Just has to pop down here, stick a second moon in orbit around the earth for a couple of days or whatever it takes.

Why does it always require guesswork and belief?

The rational man has to conclude that he doesn't want to prove anything to us (so it's not likely he's going to leave cryptic clues everywhere) or he doesn't exist - at least in the sort of way that the religious believe in him.

OK let's say for a moment you are God. You've created a world where you place little people. Years go by and the little people haven't seen you for a while and then a little man turns and say "Hey you, the person who has given us all these wonderful things, I have no love for you, Show me who you are because I don't beleive in you, your a fake, a fony and people who beleive in you are stupid" Would you show yourself to make that little man happy or would you weep thinking that the very thing you created has no love for you. I'd crush you like a rock but God is more forgiving than that. He let's you say it but he will not bow down to your command.

 

[cjd]

OK let's say for a moment you are God. You've created a world where you place little people. Years go by and the little people haven't seen you for a while and then a little man turns and say "Hey you, the person who has given us all these wonderful things, I have no love for you, Show me who you are because I don't beleive in you, your a fake, a fony and people who beleive in you are stupid" Would you show yourself to make that little man happy or would you weep thinking that the very thing you created has no love for you. I'd crush you like a rock but God is more forgiving than that. He let's you say it but he will not bow down to your command.

God is Dad :wink:

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.

Anyway, that's all nonsense, we're just assuming our emotions have any relevance to this god thing.

 

[freecybermag]

God is Dad

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.

Anyway, that's all nonsense, we're just assuming our emotions have any relevance to this god thing.

But he hasn't left us. He is here all the time. It's us that's left him.

Let's answer the question you raised earlier though about him showing himself. Sounds easy don't it, Or is it?
How best should he show himslef, shall he come as a mortal? If you saw a man in the street that shouted I am God, would you then bow at his feet and beg for forgiveness? No didn't think so. So we can assume that if he came as a mortal he would not be believed. How about a mortal and then performed miracles. If you saw someone turn water into wine would you then bow down and beg for forgiveness? No you'd walk away and say that it was a very good trick. So we can assume that showing himself as a mortal and performing miracles won't work.
What about if you saw a figure in the SKY and spoke, not only would a few people have heart attacks but some would say it was a trick, some would say that it's not the God they worship and so Christians woudl fight against Muslims, Jews against Hindus etc. People would die for their beliefs and so there would be uproar and unrest in the world. All religions beleive in a God so does it really matter which one is right and which one is wrong. All God wants is for you to love him. So we can assume that a public appearance is out of the question. Let's ask the question again, "Why doesn't God show himself?"

 

[cjd]

I just keep thinking that this God guy must be terribly thick (can't figure out a way of convincing me he exists so he doesn't bother) and a bit emotionally retarded (wants me to love him even though he can't be arsed to pop round and see me from time to time)

 

[Coding Monkey]

And if God can do anything, why can't be just love himself? (Not in that way, Nigel!) Why does he need over 6 billion people? Does he need all of us? Does that mean he wasn't loved enough before now with all the population, or that his greed will result in more people so he can feel more love?

 

[freecybermag]

God Bless us every one

 

[Cornish Steve]

You seem to be saying that this God is imperfect and not all powerful. He made a flawed (broken) product and can't fix it. That's not the God I was taught about at school.

This is one of the age-old questions: If God is all powerful, he can do anything, right?

The answer is a resounding "no". Any intelligent being can only do what's consistent with its character. If God is not broken and mankind is, there is only so much that even an all-powerful God can do that is consistent with his character.

While most religions believe that man can fix his brokenness by doing more good things than bad things (a set of scales, if you will), the Christian religion claims that man can do nothing to be fixed. He's a hopeless case.

So, if God cannot do anything that contradicts his character, and if man can do nothing to fix his brokenness, things look rather bleak. It's from that point that the story really begins...

 

[Cornish Steve]

Well I don't think an all seeing, all knowing all powerful being would behave like a selfish errant father do you?

If a mum and dad disappeared leaving a baby to survive in the nasty cruel world they created just before they pissed off for a few thousand years, you probably wouldn't expect the grown up baby to have too much respect for their parents when they returned many years later expecting gratitued.

But what if the parents created the perfect environment for the child, the child rebels, demonstrates a complete lack of love for the parents, screws the place up beyond repair, so that the relationship is broken - and then wonders why the parents don't show their faces any more?

 

[Cornish Steve]

Let's ask the question again, "Why doesn't God show himself?"

What if he has? What if some people have actually looked into his eyes? Would you really and truly believe it?

 

[creospace]

It's from that point that the story really begins...

And what a story it is, the greatest story every told some say!?

 

[CG Effect]

Made up story created by people with no understanding of science.

 

[freecybermag]

I also fail to believe in religions we have now. I do however beleive in God.
My beleif is that he created the gases and elements that made the Sun and then would explode to create our world. Is that plausable?

 

[CG Effect]

Catholic church proved a long time ago the big bang was the real god creation, with their own scientists. Funny how they like to change the story as soon as scentists discover what really happened. What I don't get is what made the big bang their was nothing not even time or anything before that. Some might say god created the big bang but who created him?

 

[Cornish Steve]

Catholic church proved a long time ago the big bang was the real god creation, with their own scientists. Funny how they like to change the story as soon as scentists discover what really happened. What I don't get is what made the big bang their was nothing not even time or anything before that. Some might say god created the big bang but who created him?

As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

 

[cjd]

As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

The truly wonderful thing about God is that you can make up the most awful twoddle about him and no-one can say anything about it except it's an interesting story that can not be supported by any evidence at all.

 

[Cornish Steve]

As creatures bound within the dimension of time, it's difficult for us to answer the question. If we could travel in the time dimension, however, we might suddenly see a different perceptive on this and the answer would be obvious.

The truly wonderful thing about God is that you can make up the most awful twoddle about him and no-one can say anything about it except it's an interesting story that can not be supported by any evidence at all.

Now this is an area in which the scientific method cannot apply, I agree! However, to be fair, I'm not making anything up. I choose to believe certain ancient writings. You can claim that they are made up; in reply, I would point out that their credibility comes from prophecies being fulfilled with remarkable accuracy. This subject is always going to be a sensitive one, so I promise not to be dogmatic on the issue.

 

[cjd]

I would point out that their credibility comes from prophecies being fulfilled with remarkable accuracy. This subject is always going to be a sensitive one, so I promise not to be dogmatic on the issue.

I don't find it the least bit sensitive, just daft. Please feel free to be as dogmatic as you like

Which particular prophecy would you like to fight about?