What global warming?

I think you misunderstand - I am suggesting that we get away from this fleshed-out example of CO2 testing, because it's too familiar to us to look at it cleanly as an example of what constitutes objective evidence/proof.

I think its a prime example of what constitutes objective proof (No one else is arguing Co2 isn't Co2). Again, if you don't feel Co2 is well proven or the level of proof exists, feel free to argue against it.

We can use it as a test case for your theory (for the larger discussion).

What I meant by "using anything" in my last post was "using anything as an exmple", i.e. whether it's CO2 testing or determining what the moon is made of, it doesn't matter. So to keep it clean I proposed a simplified scenario instead.

Sorry, what you're doing is moving the argument. Anyone can do that, I can talk about the Sun one day and the Moon the next. But today, lets talk about Co2....

You notice it becomes a much harder subject to talk about when you're pressed to speak in detail, and as you know we can speak in detail because of the sheer body of research which has been done on the subject.

Yet you say you could disprove it, but I put it to you, that its a lot easier to say you can disprove it, than it is to actually prove your idea.
 
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I didn't know there were such things.

Of course you do.

You know objectively and subjectively that if I kick you up the arse for thinking like an arse it will hurt and that if I do it again next week it will also hurt.

I can also tell you in advance that if I kick your arse it will hurt ie I can make a prediction and test the result of my prediction about outcomes to the point that I can be sure beyond reasonable doubt that my arse kicking causes you pain.

If you doubt it, you can ask someone else along to kick your arse just in case there's something special about my boots and you can get an independent third party to kick a random sample of arses of both sexes to see whether it's just your arse that hurts.
So what's your problem?
 
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I think its a prime example of what constitutes objective proof (No one else is arguing Co2 isn't Co2). Again, if you don't feel Co2 is well proven or the level of proof exists, feel free to argue against it.

We can use it as a test case for your theory (for the larger discussion).



Sorry, what you're doing is moving the argument. Anyone can do that, I can talk about the Sun one day and the Moon the next. But today, lets talk about Co2....

You notice it becomes a much harder subject to talk about when you're pressed to speak in detail, and as you know we can speak in detail because of the sheer body of research which has been done on the subject.

Yet you say you could disprove it, but I put it to you, that its a lot easier to say you can disprove it, than it is to actually prove your idea.

We appear unable to communicate successfully, sorry about that.
 
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Its simple, people like you come along and make grand claims, or even allude to ideas which you say are just as possible as something else... Yet, you'll never speak in detail about it, instead preferring the "high level" discussion.
 
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Its simple, people like you come along and make grand claims, or even allude to ideas which you say are just as possible as something else... Yet, you'll never speak in detail about it, instead preferring the "high level" discussion.

Pity my inferior mind - don't let it annoy you at all.
 
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Bad manners annoy me.

You can't see that its this testing, which is part of the process. You want people to prove things and its by people testing the idea which is how its done, so by me asking you how you'd disprove is Co2 (by obviously proving its something else), I am putting your theory and methods to the test.

If you want people to believe you, then you need to explain these things.
 
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After much thought and careful deliberation it seems certain members have proven the cause of Global warming.

Too much CO2 being exhaled.:rolleyes:
 
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So the second independent enquiry into the UEA mess has concluded that:

There was no scientific malpractice at the research unit at the centre of the "Climategate" affair, an independent panel has concluded.

Of course this will make difference whatsoever to the conspiracy boys...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8618024.stm
 
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So the second independent enquiry into the UEA mess has concluded that:



Of course this will make difference whatsoever to the conspiracy boys...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8618024.stm

Maybe the conspiracy boys have room for doubt. The head of the enquiry:

"Lord Oxburgh is currently president of the Carbon Capture and Storage Association and chairman of wind energy firm Falck Renewables. " (same link as above)

Whether on the side of the angels or not, he has to be a crass choice to lead the enquiry; so crass as to encourage active doubt about the intellectual capabilities of the whole crew.

This lack of intellectual competence leads easily away from any charges of malpractice and/or conspiracy, but leaves the possibility that they just don't know their stratus from their cumulus. Lack of ability trumps malfeasance but hokum still comes out of the pipe.
 
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Of course this will make difference whatsoever to the conspiracy boys...

Including lines like that detracts from otherwise useful posts. It also does no good for the discussion - I would suggest that everyone allow everyone else to say what they will, and then we'll read it, instead of pre-concluding what others' posts might be.
 
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Maybe the conspiracy boys have room for doubt. The head of the enquiry:

They ALWAYS have room for doubt. They have so much room for doubt that there's none left for sense.

I heard the Chairman on the radio - he was certain that the UEA people were honest and I felt I could believe him. He did say tho' that they could be honest but wrong. So we await the third enquiry.
 
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They ALWAYS have room for doubt. They have so much room for doubt that there's none left for sense.

I heard the Chairman on the radio - he was certain that the UEA people were honest and I felt I could believe him. He did say tho' that they could be honest but wrong. So we await the third enquiry.

Well, that's OK then. You heard him on the radio. Settled, done and dusted, eh Stilla?
 
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Well, that's OK then. You heard him on the radio. Settled, done and dusted, eh Stilla?

Yep, seems a pukka chap. Member of my club don't you know. So all fine and dandy after all. As you were, carry on.
 
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Including lines like that detracts from otherwise useful posts. It also does no good for the discussion - I would suggest that everyone allow everyone else to say what they will, and then we'll read it, instead of pre-concluding what others' posts might be.

You are perfectly entitled to say what you like, including telling me what I shouldn't say. I am, of course, entitled to totally ignore you.
 
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We must all put a Drop in this big river by doing small efforts to stop global warming and playing our role and contributing in our next generation's safe future ....
 
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What a delightful thread.

It's not as bad tempered as you seem to think - general advice is to just ignore anything that p1sses you off personally because 7 times out of 10 it's not meant that way.

For the record, saying that the conspiracy theorists will not be put off by the negative findings of these enquiries I consider to be a statement of the blindingly obvious and was not intended to be aimed at anyone here.
 
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Nope, read that 3 times now and it's still not making a lot of sense.

Do I glean that you don't want to know any more about this stuff? You'll find the unsubcsribe button under 'thread tools' at the top.
 
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Nope, read that 3 times now and it's still not making a lot of sense.

Do I glean that you don't want to know any more about this stuff? You'll find the unsubcsribe button under 'thread tools' at the top.

Outside the comfort zone of your club, eh? Things a bit hard to understand on the outside wotto Stilla?

Thanks for the "unsubcsribe" hint. As soon as I've finished the Garudina I'll explore.
 
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Nope, still can't make the letters into words, sorry.

I'll try that new fangled google teentwatpretendlingotranslator tool but I fear you may be too far gone.
 
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Oh Golly! A funny* about understanding language from the man with the fone company. Oh how we laughed.

*used in a broad sense.
 
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Hello Friends

I am new member here and i would like to share the information about business.

Thank's
 
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In the interest of balance here's what's being said on alt.conspiracy

Climategate: Oxburgh's "Trick To Hide the Trick."
14 Apr 2010
The Oxburgh report " is a flimsy and embarrassing five pages
http://www.uea.ac.uk/mac/comm/media/press/CRUstatements/Report+of+the...
They did not interview me nor, to my knowledge, any other CRU critics or
targets.
The committee was announced on March 22 and their "report" is dated April
12 - three weeks end to end - less time than even the Parliamentary
Committee.
They took no evidence.
Their list of references is 11 CRU papers, five on tree rings, six on
CRUTEM.
Notably missing from the "sample" are their 1000-year reconstructions:
Jones et al 1998,
Mann and Jones 2003,
Jones and Mann 2004, etc.
They did not discuss specifically discuss or report on any of the incidents
of arbitrary adjustment ("bodging"), cherry picking and deletion of adverse
data, mentioned in my submissions to the Science and Technology Committee
and the Muir Russell Committee.
I'll report on these issues later in the day as they'll take a little time
to review.
First, let's observe Oxburgh's trick to hide the "trick".
Long before Climategate, Climate Audit readers knew that you had to watch
the pea under the thimble whenever you're dealing with the Team. This is
true with Oxburgh of Globe International as well.
Oxburgh of Globe International alludes to the "trick..to hide the decline"
in veiled terms as follows:
"CRU publications repeatedly emphasize the discrepancy between instrumental
and tree-based proxy reconstructions of temperature during the late 20th
century, but presentations of this work by the IPCC and others have
sometimes neglected to highlight this issue. While we find this regrettable,
we could find no such fault with the peer-reviewed papers we examined."
Without specifically mentioning the famous "trick .to hide the decline",
Oxburgh subsumes the "trick" as "regrettable neglect" by "IPCC and others".
But watch the pea under Oxburgh's thimble.
"The Oxburgh Report regrettably neglected to highlight the fact that CRU
scientists Briffa and Jones, together with Michael Mann, were the IPCC
authors responsible for this "regrettable neglect" in the Third Assessment
Report. They also regrettably neglected to report that CRU scientist Briffa
was the IPCC author responsible for the corresponding section in AR4. "
Oxburgh pretends that the fault lay with "IPCC and others", but this
pretence is itself a trick.
CRU was up to its elbows in the relevant IPCC presentations that
"regrettably neglected" to show the divergent data in their graphics.
It is also untrue that CRU authors, in their capacity as IPCC authors,
"regrettably neglected" to show the divergent data in the IPCC graphics.
The Climategate emails show that they did so intentionally - see for example
IPCC and the Trick,
(http://climateaudit.org/2009/12/10/ipcc-and-the-trick/)
which show awareness on the part of CRU scientists that showing the decline
would "dilute the message" that IPCC wanted to send.
The eventual IPCC figure, as reported here on a number of cases, gave a
false rhetorical message of the veracity of the proxy reconstructions.
ClimatAudit readers are also well aware that IPCC and Briffa were
categorically asked by one AR4 reviewer (me) to disclose the divergent data.
CRU's Briffa refused, saying only that it would be "inappropriate" to show
the data in the graphic. They didn't "neglect" to show the divergent data
from the Briffa reconstruction.
This was a considered decision, carried out in AR4 despite pointed
criticism.
Yes, the decline had been disclosed in the "peer reviewed literature".
Indeed, that was how I became aware of the trick - long before Climategate
and why, as an AR4 peer reviewer, I asked that IPCC not use the trick once
again in AR4.
IPCC presentations are how the climate science community speaks to the
world.
Climate scientists, including CRU scientists, have a far greater obligation
of full, true and plain disclosure in IPCC reports than even the specialist
literature.
Oxburgh pretends that (partial) disclosure of adverse results by CRU in
specialist literature is sufficient. It isn't. There was a continuing
obligation to disclose adverse results in IPCC graphics.
CRU "scientists" acted as IPCC authors. The complaint about the trick arose
out of how CRU "scientists" carried out their duties as IPCC authors.
In this respect, the Oxburgh report is a feeble sleight-of-hand that in
effect tries to make the public think that the "trick" was no more than
"regrettable neglect" by the "IPCC and others" - nothing to do with CRU.
In other words, Oxburgh is using a trick to hide the "trick".
Trick me once, shame on you.
UPDATE:
The Daily Telegraph reports:
Professor Hand did say that "inappropriate methods" were used by a separate
university to draw up the infamous "hockey stick" graph showing the rise in
global temperatures over more than 1,000 years.
Uh, memo to Oxburgh.
CRU produced its own hockey stick graphs in Jones et al 1998, Mann and Jones
2003, for example.
For some reason, Oxburgh and his associates "regrettably neglected" to
consider these articles.
http://climateaudit.org/2010/04/14/oxburghs-trick-to-hide-the-trick/
Warmest Regards
Bon_0
"It is a remarkable fact that despite the worldwide expenditure of perhaps
US$50 billion since 1990, and the efforts of tens of thousands of scientists
worldwide, no human climate signal has yet been detected that is distinct
from natural variation."
Bob Carter, Research Professor of Geology, James Cook University, Townsville
 
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You know that your breath contains CO2 and you don't know anyone who doubts it nor do you know of any flaws in the testing regime for CO2.
The short dialog about exhaling CO2 is quite illustrative:

1) The fact that we exhale CO2 is irrelevant. Why does no one focus on the amount of nitrogen or argon that we exhale, for example? They occur in far higher concentrations that CO2.

2) It may sound a rather trite point, but the issue is the 'net CO2' we exhale compared to what we inhale. Of course we exhale CO2 - but so what?

This volcanic eruption in Iceland will dwarf any possible contribution that mankind has made to global warming gases. It's events like this that trigger long-term climate change.
 
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The short dialog about exhaling CO2 is quite illustrative:

I shouldn't have mentioned CO2, it wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make which was:

This sort of argument always resolves to 'we can never know anything' and it's very silly as it requires us to doubt unquestionable facts while being prepared to think that unproven and unproveable ideas might be their equivalent.
 
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What is it with Iceland?
First they are partly blamed for the banking problems. Now they are responsible for excessive contribution to Global warming.

Just what are they gonna do next i wonder? :rolleyes:
 
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We said 'send us your Cash'
 
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So the second independent enquiry into the UEA mess has concluded that there was no scientific malpractice at the research unit at the centre of the "Climategate" affair, an independent panel has concluded.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8618024.stm

Well, here are the results of another inquiry, probably about as biased and one-sided as the first. What did they find?

  1. In one chapter of the infamous IPCC climate report, more than 5 out of 6 references were NOT peer-reviewed.
  2. Almost half the chapters quoted fewer peer-reviewed sources than non peer-reviewed sources.
  3. In total, well over 5,000 non peer-reviewed references were included in the report.
So what were these non peer-reviewed sources that UN IPCC report authors quoted so liberally? "Press releases, newspaper and magazine clippings, student theses, newsletters, discussion papers, and literature published by green advocacy groups."

Looking back to my research days, I just can't see how anyone peer-reviewing my papers would have taken me seriously if even one of my references fell into any of these categories (with the exception of student theses). The paper would have been thrown out. But we're supposed to accept without question a UN report with over 5,000 such references? Give me a break!
 
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And what's the opinion of Dr. Pachauri, the current chairman of the IPCC? He's on record as saying "IPCC studies only peer-review science. Let someone publish the data in a decent credible publication. I am sure IPCC would then accept it, otherwise we can just throw it into the dustbin." So, according to his rules, almost 5,600 sources of data in his panel's own report should be thrown into the dustbin. This means more than half the sources in about half the report's chapters. In practical terms, that would render the document meaningless.
 
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I guess you didn't read it then.....
 
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I guess you didn't read it then.....
I'm guessing that you're referring to Annex 2, which gives the IPCC report authors the right to include some non peer-reviewed and unpublished work - such as workshop proceedings. I understand exactly what this means, as would anyone who's published the results of scientific research. For example, I spoke at two international conferences on magnetic materials, and IEEE published both of the papers I presented, even though they weren't peer reviewed. I agree that this is acceptable and standard practice.

The report authors went much further than this, though. They published "press releases, newspaper and magazine clippings, student theses, newsletters, discussion papers, and literature published by green advocacy groups." There's no way that these publication guidelines were intended to give authors carte blanche when it came to references. What would be their value if they allow virtually anything to be used as a reference?

Anyway, the chairman of the IPCC is ultimately responsible for the report. He has stated publicly that he abides by a higher standard: Within the last couple of months, he announced that no source would ever be used in his team's work unless it is peer-reviewed. He stated that any material that is not peer-reviewed would be "thrown into the dustbin" (his exact words). Quite frankly, he's damned his own report.
 
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Ok having accepted that the IPCC can include many types of evidence other than strictly peer reviewed scientific papers, I suggest you now read the paper sited as the 'worst' in your link - Working Group 3, Chapter 4, which contains only 15% peer reviewed references.

That paper is actually a review of policy and politics of developing climate mitigation. It is not a 'science' paper - it introduces the political dimensions of the problem and quotes background and political issues surrounded it. So, surprise, surprise, much of what it talks about is not scientific.

Your blogger - who is promoting her forthcoming book - took no interest in the actual content of the papers, and obviously hasn't even read them to see whether her 'analysis' is actually relevant to anything at all.

The author, herself has amazing credentials:

"Begun in early 2009, the NOconsensus.org web site is wholly researched, written, designed, and published by Donna Laframboise, a self-employed photographer. "

I might as well have asked my mother's opinion.
 
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Anyway, the chairman of the IPCC is ultimately responsible for the report. He has stated publicly that he abides by a higher standard: Within the last couple of months, he announced that no source would ever be used in his team's work unless it is peer-reviewed. He stated that any material that is not peer-reviewed would be "thrown into the dustbin" (his exact words). Quite frankly, he's damned his own report.

Ok, I've now read the quote from the Indian Times where the Chairman says 'his exact words'.

He's responding to being told about a discussion paper claiming that "there was no conclusive evidence to prove that the Himalayan glaciers are melting due to climate change"

The paper admits that "there was no doubt that the `health' of the glaciers was very poor and the situation was reaching alarming proportions but warned that there was little evidence to connect it to climate change or black carbon.

The paper also says "that there was not enough data to present any conclusive evidence to show linkages at the moment with long term data existing only for 20-30 glaciers and there was only one automated weather station in the entire Himalayas to record climatic data."

So, "when asked if the discussion paper could be taken into consideration in the on-going round of scientific review by IPCC, he (the Chairman of the IPCC) said, "IPCC studies only peer-review science. Let someone publish the data in a decent credible publication. I am sure IPCC would then accept it, otherwise we can just throw it into the dustbin."

Which is a perfectly reasonable response and one that you've deliberately misused.
 
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