What do you get for paying council rates

[Naive citizen]

It's a simple question really. I've moved into a new premisis and will be required to pay council rates.

Like any sensible business man I have a basic understanding of the fundementals of business in particular the operating principle of money is that it is given in exchange for goods or services.

So when you pay council rates, i.e. you hand over money, what should you be getting in return? I want to make sure I get best value for money so need to know what I should be getting.

 

[KateCB]

Nothing. Consider it a tax.

I have a building on a new industrial estate - technically road sweeping, repairs and street lighting, access to fire/ambulance etc are included in the 'rates'. But apart from that, nothing.

As it is new, they don't have any repairs to the road to do for 10 years alledgedly, we have no street light within 1000mtrs of our unit. We were snowed out at the beginning of the year as they don't grit.....

Be aware that you HAVE to pay for waste collection - you can't take it home, they will fine you. Wheelie bin in my area is £140 a year, larger bin is £400 a year- collection weekly.......if they remember

The rates for my unit are as much sa the mortgage and I get NOTHING for this; a recent rates valuation office came to see us with a view to getting a reduction for nuisance (we had new building and the noise, dust and construction traffic was bad - stopped us getting into our unit in a morning as it was so congested with site traffic) and told me then that it is a TAX on business, nothing more.

 

[Paul Norman]

Business Rates are a tax. They are NOT a payment in return for a service. It is a tax on business, and the council are not required to demonstrate value for money to any individual payer.

This is an important legal distinction. Even if the council fails to deliver a service, you are not entitled to withhold payment.

 

[Naive citizen]

I know it is a tax.

I feel the first part of your answer is pretty accurate. - That's to Kate.

My business is on a private road. We pay rent to the landlord for the right to access. It is nicely tarmaced, has good drainage and isn't too dirty although I can't recall ever seeing anyone clean it.

I pay income tax and council tax at home which is supposed to provide the emergency services. Isn't it also a council tax? So it goes to the council and I'm sure the emergency services are not a council department (thank god, I have an emergency, oh, we'll be there in 6 weeks and we'll send the wrong service) so it would make sense that emergency services are funded from central government? No?

So the question remains. What do you get for your business rates?

If anyone can work out what it is then I'm all ears. I bet I don't want whatever it is though? Would have bought it myself if I did.

 

So when you pay council rates, i.e. you hand over money, what should you be getting in return? I want to make sure I get best value for money so need to know what I should be getting.

An assumption that as a business you earn "loads a money":|

And the satisfation that you have contributed to Kate and Wills £500K honeymoon.

Or if your blood pressure can stand it 5 billion cost of the wedding.

And I thought serfdom finished ages ago.

Earl

 

[Naive citizen]

Excellent reply, I think we're getting closer to the truth.

However, since the money is given to the council and since money never goes up from the council (it always comes down from central government) then it seems unlikely that it would be going into the splicing of Will and Kate.

I suppose you might say we are getting the olympics? London councils all have to contribute to that. Well where's my ticket then? And where's my partners ticket to make up for when I don't put food on the table?

 

[Paul Norman]

As with all taxes, there is no direct link between what you pay and what you get.

Council's produce a budget to spend a certain amount of money. They then raise that money through a variety of routes, such as a grant from central government (this is the biggest chunk by a long way), domestic council tax, business rates, and charges for services. There are other bits and pieces, but these are the main ones.

The amount you pay is, in theory, therefore related not to the services that are either consumed, or available, but to your circumstances. If you have a large commercial premises, you pay more. You do not, necessarily, receive more.

The council are responsible for a large range of issues locally (they will send you a copy of their budget document, if you ask), which are not exactly the same in every area. They have some scope to choose how they spend money.

Businesses receive less than private dwellings, of course, but do benefit from any general care the council take over the area. Or not, as the case may be.

 

Excellent reply, I think we're getting closer to the truth.

However, since the money is given to the council and since money never goes up from the council (it always comes down from central government) then it seems unlikely that it would be going into the splicing of Will and Kate.

I suppose you might say we are getting the olympics? London councils all have to contribute to that. Well where's my ticket then? And where's my partners ticket to make up for when I don't put food on the table?

Nope a bit less money from central government can be diverted to pay for the royal jollies cause you is a good law abiding serf.

Stands to reason that business rates as a tax should be related to the profit a company makes.

But your lords and masters do not want to take a chance that you don't make enought to pay for there 10k bottle of plonk.:|

Earl

 

[Becky Midgley]

I read today that the head of childrens' services at Haringey that was sacked over the Baby P tragedy earned £133,000 a year. Furthermore, in light of her winning her appeal she can now claim earnings since she was sacked and a full pension which amounts to God only knows how much! I think your 'business rates/tax' are paying these kind of salaries.

 

[QuickHomeBuyers]

My business rates are also paying for

a. Rent
b. C tax
c. Weekly spening money for the work shy people which nobody seems to care about?

Where has the promise gone that all the people on the dole would be subject to weekly community work? Nothing is changing the future of this country.

 

[Naive citizen]

Indeed. Those salaries in particular are very frustrating. When I work hard putting in all the hours god gives trying to get something back for it and usually reciveing little or nothing it annoys me more than anything else that there should be staff at the council earing the sorts of salaries only city traders could expect off the back of the genuine work that I do.

In our particular council there are 28 council officers earning more than £100,000 per year.

Something else our council has does which I don't appriciate and the likes of which they are always doing is this sort of nanny-state stuff which benefits nobody at all. For example, a few months ago they launched an anti-drugs campaign in the area. They put up posters all over the borough hanging from the lamp posts amongst other things. I know just creating the posters themsleves would have cost a fortune let alone what it costs to get them installed and have them maintained. There are many other costly aspects to the campaign too. At the end of the day all they are doing is asking members of the public to 'shop' their fellow citizens if they suspect them of being involved in drugs. The sorts of people who like doing that sort of thing don't need any encouragement so the whole campaign has been a total waste of tax payers money and it makes my blood boil. I have sent them a letter asking them to declare the full cost of the campaign. I have recived an acknowledgement that they will do the calculations and get back to me. That was a few months ago now.

 

[Sky Racer]

What do you get in return for a hefty chunk of your hard earned wedge.....sod all thats what. Biz rates are simply another way for councils to bump up their bank balance so they can pay those over inflated salaries to a selection of the in house pen pushers. A friend recently expanded his business into the unit next door to his existing one as it was sitting empty. He then lost the discount the council give to small businesses as he had more than one property. The loss of discount and the extra rates on the new unit meant a bill four times or so what he had been paying.

Simple solution was to start another company and have the lease on the new unit in the new company name. Then both businesses got the small biz discount the council offer..... Daft rules....silly tax that should be profit linked but there is nothing you can do about it.

 

[kulture]

Business rates are a tax. Their correct name also gives a better idea , National Non Domestic Rates. The clue is in the title, NATIONAL. It is in fact a national tax. The tax rate is set by central government. The valuation of your business property is done by the valuation office, which reports to central government. Your local council has simply been given the job of collecting the rates and handing them over to central government. Indeed they are assumed to collect about 95-98% of the occupied properties and have to hand that amount over REGARDLESS of whether they actually collected it.

So not only does your rates get you nothing, your local council who collects it get nothing too. (except of course complaints from businesses, myself included, that they get nothing for their money)

 

[Vaheed Akhtar]

It's a simple question really. I've moved into a new premisis and will be required to pay council rates.

Like any sensible business man I have a basic understanding of the fundementals of business in particular the operating principle of money is that it is given in exchange for goods or services.

So when you pay council rates, i.e. you hand over money, what should you be getting in return? I want to make sure I get best value for money so need to know what I should be getting.

If your property has a rateable value of less that £6000 - then you have no rates to pay until Sep 2012. Consider it a breathing space before they hammer us next year!

 

[MASSEY]

You get your bins collected like the rest of us. What else do you want?

 

[Vaheed Akhtar]

You get your bins collected like the rest of us. What else do you want?

No. Bins are an additional expense.

 

[Dawg]

The reason why business rates are set nationally as a % of the rentable value is because in the 1980s various 'Peoples' Republic' local authorities like Liverpool, Sheffield etc were run by the deranged left and decided to try and tax business, well, out of business.
Central government was left paying an increasing dole bill and had to find a way of stopping the fruit loop left from destroying otherwise viable businesses and this arrangement was that way.
It significantly lowered the rates for businesses across large parts of central and northern England, although many areas in the south saw increases, especially the south east.
Whilst a good idea in theory, this is a danger of allowing too much local control. Once the local bungle bunnies get their hands on tax raising it's a short path to hell.

 

[crphillips]

You get shafted by 'the man'......again.

 

[Naive citizen]

If your property has a rateable value of less that £6000 - then you have no rates to pay until Sep 2012. Consider it a breathing space before they hammer us next year!

This sounds like horseship? Are you sure? My RTV is below 6k. Just under, I think £5800 is my ratable value. Where is the source for this information as I would love not to have to pay business rates if I didn't have to... as would anyone!

Dawg. Local control is alright as long as it is the people controlling through a referendum system. Busybodies in the council offices making decisions that effect everyone at the same time that those said busybodies have no idea what they're doing is totally wrong. It often appears the only aim is to feather their own nests. I went to a 60th birthday party of a retired council chief and the standard was lavish. He probably spent £20k on this party and the place was bursting with people he had never even met before. He took the oppertunity to propose to his girlfriend on stage in front of the crowd. The guy was living like a rockstar yet had never really earned a cent.

 

[Dawg]

Dawg. Local control is alright as long as it is the people controlling through a referendum system. Busybodies in the council offices making decisions that effect everyone at the same time that those said busybodies have no idea what they're doing is totally wrong.

Referenda elect politicians.
Politicians make policy, (in my above post, the policy of punitive taxation for business.)
Council officials implement policy.

The fact that council officials are overpaid and lavishly rewarded with extra benefits is a failure of the overseers, the politicians. They are elected at a local level by an electorate dominated by short term self interest, (at best).

Council officials and their rewards are a symptom not a cause of the failure of localism.

 

[Naive citizen]

Elections elect politicians.

Referendums decide on policy. But just recently we had the first national referendum in around 35 years on a question nobody really wanted to vote on. Proper referendum systems give the citizens themselves the power to create their own referendum questions. Provided there is enough support then any question can be put to the people and a vote can take place. This system creates a superior society better for the people.

I agree, the failure is not with the council officials. They are heaivly rewarded to secure their compliance. Furthermore, they hand this down so it propergates to the ordinary folk on the ground. A job central government cannot do by itself.

 

[Gwekids]

Just out of interest, do people that start their business in one of those incubator type units pay rates after a certain time? Always wondered how that works. I'm guessing that the rent for those types of units is all inclusive as this must be the easier way to calculate it?

 

[movietub]

Business rates is simply an unjustified tax which some people liken to council tax - except with council tax at least they empty the bins.

It's also a lot more expensive then council tax and appears to be worked out on a 'as much as we can get in the area' basis.

This is why government don't understand business. Their experience of making money is to demand the ammount you require, and offer nothing in return.

 

[Dawg]

Business rates is simply an unjustified tax which some people liken to council tax - except with council tax at least they empty the bins.

It's also a lot more expensive then council tax and appears to be worked out on a 'as much as we can get in the area' basis.

This is why government don't understand business. Their experience of making money is to demand the ammount you require, and offer nothing in return.

Taxation without representation.

See also: American Revolution....

 

[movietub]

Taxation without representation.

See also: American Revolution....

I read about that period in one of Bill Bryson's books actually!

Sadly the British (unlike the french) are very well behaved and tend not to rise up - no matter how rediculous a situation gets. We simply continue to follow the rules.

It's a sort of insanity really. You can take a bloke that has a fierce reputation for sticking up for himself and not letting others take the p*ss. And you can watch that same bloke routinely pay his car tax whilst the potholes down his road knacker his suspension, and watch said road tax instead get used to pay for 'traffic calming' road width reduction taking his two lane road down to one lane, whilst it still costs as much as a 2 lane road to maintain but can handle only half the traffic. He will STILL pay, because us British seem incapable of any sort of uprising, no matter how much the majority disagree with what they are routinely asked to do.

I do think however, that there is a lot of pent up frustration and that the situation can only last so long. The bottom line is that the majority of people in this country don't like our politicians and/or don't understand them. It's not the same everywhere, politicians are not always disliked by default, that too is a very British situation.

 

[KateCB]

Back to the subject -
1.As I originally said, You get nothing for business rates, it is a tax.
2. Waste collection is additional and payable directly to your local council for their 'services'
3.Your local council or the Ukgov.org website will tell you that properties with a rateable value of less that £6000pa are exempt from business rates - this year at least, so well done for having a smaller unit than I do, and getting nothing for paying nothing - what more could you want?

 

[kulture]

Back to the subject -
1.As I originally said, You get nothing for business rates, it is a tax.
2. Waste collection is additional and payable directly to your local council for their 'services'
3.Your local council or the Ukgov.org website will tell you that properties with a rateable value of less that £6000pa are exempt from business rates - this year at least, so well done for having a smaller unit than I do, and getting nothing for paying nothing - what more could you want?

All true. Except that you do not have to pay your local council to collect waste. You can find a private firm to do this, but you still have to pay. make sure that the private firm gives you a waste disposal form so when the council inspector calls you can prove that you are properly disposing of your commercial waste.

 

[xpresstelecoms]

Nothing at all

 

[KateCB]

True - it does say 'payable to your local council for their 'services'....if you use the council bin wagon, you pay the council...... Private contractors are easy to find, however in my experience the local councils actually work out a lot cheaper than the private contractors - in my area anyway!

 

[Naive citizen]

Sorry, I know I sound like a broken record... but it would be really helpful if someone might link to the actual place on the official government website where it says I don't have to pay rates. My RTV is less than 6k. I have quite a lot of space considering... but that's neither here nor there, the rtv is less than 6k so if this temporary reduction is available it would be very helpful and if someone knows where the official information is could they please, please, please let me know.

I'm in the process of 'cutting a deal' with the local mob about the amount of protection I'm going to pay and naturally they would not disclose any discounts if they could help it. They started off by trying to charge me for two units, one which I was not renting. Then they didn't tell me about the rates relief. They tried to back-charge me which I've also got them to take off. So the saga continues. If I don't have to pay at all for a temporary period then please let me know where the official confirmation is so I can get the exemption.

 

[Naive citizen]

Found it. They even have a link on my local council site fully explaining it.

 

[Sky Racer]

Here you go, take a read of this -

http://www.communities.gov.uk/documents/localgovernment/pdf/1517622.pdf