Website taking a year and still not done!

[Billysdiet]

Hi all,
I need some advise please.
September last year I instructed a firm to write a complex website and back end database. We agreed a price and started paying monthly payments. The total cost is £2500 plus VAT. We were told it would take 6 weeks to complete. My husband who worked in IT wrote a full technical spec document with all the data we needed. He felt that 6 weeks was a unrealistic deadline as the project is so complex. He also says that such a complex site should cost a lot more than they have quoted. However we have several emails showing the price and an invoice and this was after they had the design document. But as far as working on the project goes so far we have had broken promises and missed deadlines. Currently we have a completed good stock management program that helps me put orders together, prints invoices and keeps a track of stock. They have also implemented a VAT tracker as we have just registered. However the back end is still not completed. They never let us know what is happening, they promise things and nothing happens. Weeks have turned into months and nothing seems to change. We threaten, we plead, we beg but they just don't seem to work on it. If we push them to much they will remove the back end that I can use. And I cannot be without the system now, it saves me 30% of time processing orders. So we are stuck. No posh website, no completed database and we have paid them nearly £2k (I stopped making payments and said I would pay the final on completion as we could see it was going wrong). My question is - how can we get them to work on it? How can we get it completed without them removing our database. We are just so caught! Any advise would be most gratefully received. Sorry for such a long post!

 

[WHARTY]

So your husband said that 6 weeks was unrealistic to do what you were asking of this company AND the price was too cheap, yet you still went along with it?

You get what you pay for. I have had quotes for similar projects which usually come in between 7 and 15k.

In my opinion you should have listened to your husband and got a number of quotes before you parted with your cash.

 

[Billysdiet]

Hmmm no thats not quite right. They said it would take 6 weeks, the gave the quote and insisted they could do it on time. They put all this is writing. They convinced both of us they could do the project and even after we stated several times the price was too low they confirmed - in writing - that it was what they wanted to charge us. The 6 week deadline always seemed unrealistic but we thought if it took a bit longer it would be ok. But a year is a bit too long! Thanks for responding.

 

[Billysdiet]

Also it was the third quote of a similar amount.

 

[fisicx]

Where is it being coded? Not where the compony is based - whare are the actual developers?

I suspect that they can't complete the project and have just stopped all work. Which means you won't get anything more out of them. Your £2K has gone and your project has ground to a halt.

Are there any websites out there that do something similar to what you want? The details you have provided so far are not unusual and easily within the scope of a decent stock/finance managment application.

 

[Billysdiet]

Thanks fisicx. The company is based in Nottingham. They only one office and are quite small. They are still working on it. We recently had a small update and supposedly are "testing" a way of keeping a customer record so we can access previous orders and data rather than making a new record for each order. So things are happening, just very slowly. If we keep on top of them they complain it takes up to much time keeping us informed. If we leave them to get on with it nothing happens for weeks. We have looked before at other databases on the market but nothing is quite bespoke enough for us that we have found. Where do you think we could look?

 

[garyk]

That sounds way too light, I would guess closer to 10 times the amount you were quoted.

So practical advice. You have a stock management program, can you not use an off the shelf accounting package like Sage? Is it an ecommerce site as if you do go with the an off the shelf ecommerce solution and standard accounting system you will likely find add-ons that tie the two together if thats what you need?

Gary

 

[fisicx]

Does your website have to be so complex? Can't you launch with a simpler application and bolt on the other bits latter.

If they are creating a bespoke application and website you do realise that you probably won't be able to go anywhere else for support. You are going to be stuck with these developers forever. Which means changes later are going to be just as slow.

Using an off the shelf application means loads of support and loads of modules you can add on, often for free.

Another thought: how do you even know you need all the functions you have requested? It may be that when you launch you customers actually want something totally different...

 

[maxh]

Honestly if it was a complex site you shouldn't have been paying someone chump change to get it done.

2.5k for even ONE persons time over 6 weeks, that is ludacris!

A genuinely complex site could cost 50k or even 500k!

 

[Paul Norman]

I suspect that all our advice will fall before this fact.

The company you have selected simply are not able to finish this project.

They may, however, be willing to let someone else take it over. It would be a way out for them, and get you what you require - I am going to credit your husband with having written a good spec.

I have seen instances where this has happened. However, it will mean spending more money - not sure if this is an option.

 

[Chris Ashdown]

As always Bespoke should be the last resort after deep indepth looking at the market as it exsists, few bespoke major programs will be cost effective for a small enterprise

Please write down on here the spec you made and see what off the peg solutions that may have either partly or fully met that criteria

To my way of thinking its far better to pay a few hundred quid and get a shop in a box up and running for a year and then with a years knowledge you know what improvements you want and how to go about fixing those requirements either using exsisting software, new or bespoke

Don't forget commercial software has normally hundreds or thousands of users and large backup to sort the bugs, Bespoke means your on your own and must pay for all the bug fixes

 

[JonathanSEO]

Sounds like you went looking for badgers and came up squirrels.

Things like this are difficult to judge - 2 sides to every story so hard to give advice.

 

[maxh]

@Billysdiet: I've built and designed a ton of sites with serious back-end capability (including apps, custom CRM, data-mines, dynamic content, eshops etc etc..) on several different platforms. Some sites had 1million+ pages with 500,000 unique visits per day.

If you let me know what the spec was, in PM if you like, I can let you know roughly how much it should cost, and how much of it you actually need in order to make your business "work".

Obviously I won't try to nick the idea and I'm not tapping you up to be a client as I am not looking for more work right now!

Up to you, would be happy to help you out.

 

[Alan]

As stated above bespoke functionality for £2.5k does not buy you much.

It is possible that the web firms that quoted you similar amounts all thougth they could get an off-the-shelf solution and just do the website design & integration and a few minor tweak, but even them £2.5k is on the light end for anything serious.

So it is like that the firm took it on and them found the 'tweaks' that needed to be done to meet the functional spec where well above what they anticipated an dnow they are making a loss on the project.

Just as an aside, if it is a complex functional spec, the effort just required to read it and turn it into a decent technical spec / design document would be more than £2.5k.

 

[Christine Hough]

Cut your contract with this company. They won't argue as the remaining work will cost far more than the £500 outstanding.

Maxh's offer is worth exploring.

Get someone you can trust (a company or a contractor) to work full time for you to sort it and start earning from your site!

We had a similar under performance and it was for much more than £2500! I had todraw a line under what they were doing and put it right ourselves. I used a company called Dotsquares who outsource to India and got a very good service from them. Better communication with the Indian programmers full time working for me than from the UK web developers who were also doing a load of other work.

I think they charge about 350 - 400 per week for a full time contractor. If you aren't registered for VAT and cannot reclaim the tax, they will invoice from their Indian operation and only charge 4% to cover Paypal.

I don't mean to rubbish the many good UK programmers but now feel more comfortable working with contractors than taking on a development company who fit your work in with others.

 

[internetspaceships]

I agree with Christine on this.

We had bespoke work done for a database that linked with our website and it took four tries and four companies to get it right. It's still not finished.

Developers seem to have this "I don't give a ****" attitude to timescales, and before anyone bleats at me about how rosy they are, the latest incarnation has cost us £23k....

Before you look at employing Max, get at least 5 references and see what the real story is. Not a dig at you Max, but business is business. A referral from a forum is like a referral from a mate in the pub.

 

[Christine Hough]

I had a contract with the developers written to cover the development in which 'time was of the essence' This allows things to be cancelled if it is spinning out of time. Otherwise strictly speaking the contract is still valid no matter how long it over runs.

I truly think it saved me thousands! I would not go for a bespoke project over a couple of grand without such a contract!

 

[Christine Hough]

Before you look at employing Max, get at least 5 references and see what the real story is. Not a dig at you Max, but business is business. A referral from a forum is like a referral from a mate in the pub.

Sensible point.

 

[internetspaceships]

Thanks Christine. My teeth grind at the very thought of employing "developers" because most of them are idiots.

 

[Alan]

With much due respect, £2.5k or £23k is still a very small amount of money and isn't likely to have a highly experienced project manager (or indeed any project manager) assigned to the task.

So in many cases estimates will be done by sales people or programmers and they don't have a good track record of estimating or delivering to timescales.

 

[internetspaceships]

With much due respect, £2.5k or £23k is still a very small amount of money and isn't likely to have a highly experienced project manager (or indeed any project manager) assigned to the task.

So in many cases estimates will be done by sales people or programmers and they don't have a good track record of estimating or delivering to timescales.

Oh do hush- £23,000 a small amount of money? Get a life.

 

[Alan]

I had a contract with the developers written to cover the development in which 'time was of the essence' This allows things to be cancelled if it is spinning out of time. Otherwise strictly speaking the contract is still valid no matter how long it over runs.

I truly think it saved me thousands! I would not go for a bespoke project over a couple of grand without such a contract!

A very interesting point, it would be interesting to find out how much the contract negotiation cost, I'd assume that lawyers on both sides would have had to look at the implication of the clauses.

I do have a suspicion, that smaller firms will accept client contracts without much fuss. Recently we were asked to sign a NDA, and were told that the previous firm had happily accepted, then I looked at the NDA is was totally unacceptable. I offered back two standard NDAs one bilateral and one unilateral, but because the previous development firm (that had bailed out on them) had accepted the outrageously onerous clauses they thought we should too. We declined, of course. The point being - long windily - that in my opinion the first firm signed it without caring about the content.

 

[JonathanSEO]

With much due respect, £2.5k or £23k is still a very small amount of money and isn't likely to have a highly experienced project manager (or indeed any project manager) assigned to the task.

So in many cases estimates will be done by sales people or programmers and they don't have a good track record of estimating or delivering to timescales.

£23k is a fairly large amount to a lot of businesses. Plenty companies that turn over low / mid range 8 figures would consider that a large outlay especially for something web related.

 

[internetspaceships]

A very interesting point, it would be interesting to find out how much the contract negotiation cost, I'd assume that lawyers on both sides would have had to look at the implication of the clauses.

I do have a suspicion, that smaller firms will accept client contracts without much fuss. Recently we were asked to sign a NDA, and were told that the previous firm had happily accepted, then I looked at the NDA is was totally unacceptable. I offered back two standard NDAs one bilateral and one unilateral, but because the previous development firm (that had bailed out on them) had accepted the outrageously onerous clauses they thought we should too. We declined, of course. The point being - long windily - that in my opinion the first firm signed it without caring about the content.

Would you be happy in the context of your comments about "smaller firms" to disclose the contract values that you did in fact complete over the last 12 months? Just for clarity of course.

 

[JonathanSEO]

Some decent advice here but everyone is just assuming the developers are terrible. Might not necessarily be the case.

 

[Alan]

Oh do hush- £23,000 a small amount of money? Get a life.

Depends on what you are doing. For lots of individuals and micro companies this is of course a lot of money. For others this is 2 weeks AdWords budget, or short Radio Advert campaign.

But take a contract project manager, at £500 per day and that is just 46 days project management. You've spent £23,000 on nothing except management.

 

[internetspaceships]

Some decent advice here but everyone is just assuming the developers are terrible. Might not necessarily be the case.

Heck Jonathan, we made big mistakes on our first two attempts. I'll take that one on board completely. We laid ourselves open to all kinds of things that with hindsight, we shouldn't have.

Not all developers are terrible BUT they need nailing to the floor with six inch nails to make sure that they don't have any "get outs" at all.

I'll take the rap for the first thousands we lost. It was our own fault for being trusting and not preparing the paperwork properly.

If I could share anything with the community, it would be to prepared to be tough, and if the developer balks at your terms, find another before instructing them. Otherwise it will only end in tears.

 

[Christine Hough]

A very interesting point, it would be interesting to find out how much the contract negotiation cost, I'd assume that lawyers on both sides would have had to look at the implication of the clauses.

I do have a suspicion, that smaller firms will accept client contracts without much fuss. Recently we were asked to sign a NDA, and were told that the previous firm had happily accepted, then I looked at the NDA is was totally unacceptable. I offered back two standard NDAs one bilateral and one unilateral, but because the previous development firm (that had bailed out on them) had accepted the outrageously onerous clauses they thought we should too. We declined, of course. The point being - long windily - that in my opinion the first firm signed it without caring about the content.

I paid a lawyer to draw it up and rejected their standard terms which were outrageous. They did not take legal advice and signed without question until things went wrong when they were told (I presume) that I could pull out and not pay a penny. I didn't, but I paid less and went elsewhere to fix it.

In retrospect I wish
1) their easy signing should have been a warning, and I should have pulled out then, but I took it to mean they were very confident on delivering it.
2)I had been tougher and walked when it went wrong, as it took more to get it working than I anticipated.

 

[AlexandraS]

But take a contract project manager, at £500 per day and that is just 46 days project management. You've spent £23,000 on nothing except management.

My daily rate as a technical PM was far larger than that and I very much agree with your earlier post that the developers themselves are often not the best people to estimate time scales as they have a definite propensity to over-promise and under-deliver and it's not because they want to diddle their clients, they just honestly believe that they can write a fabulous piece of code quickly.

 

[fisicx]

All of which doesn't really help the OP. They don't have a functioning platform or a website to sit on top of it.

The money has gone and they aren't going to get the product they expected. They will have to pay a lot more if they want to try again but my advice is to look at an standard ecommerce package (which may well cover 90% of the spec) and then just pay for some bespoke modules to be coded.

The problem with really tight specs and bespoke solutions is that they may result in a wonderful website with loads of functionality that proves to be hopeless at converting. Which then means you have to spend another wodge to fix everything. Far better to go with a simple standard package and test to see what works and what doesn't. Once you have the basics in place you can build the funky bits and test again.

 

[Alan]

....They did not take legal advice and signed without question...
In retrospect I wish
1) their easy signing should have been a warning, and I should have pulled out then, but I took it to mean they were very confident on delivering it.
...

Thanks, my point exactly having a great contract that is too easily signed (in 'desperation' to please the client and get a sale) is common place, and is a warning sign that your terms may be ignored (until the crunch).


Same goes with detailed functional specs. I have made that mistake, written a brilliant, detailed spec. Sent it out to tender and was over the moon when I got a great price. When I got the first version of the software it was clear that the developer had not even read the detail, just made assumptions. I pulled the project and got nothing and paid nothing, but learned the hardway (as I then had to do the work myself ) about outsourcing and great deals. As they say, if it is too good to be true, then it probably isn't.

 

[SnappyJen]

I do feel for the OP as one of the hardest things about running your own business is finding reliable and helpful consultants that deliver on time.

I'll answer your original question rather than berate you for what others perceive your mistakes to be!

Firstly, I would set up a face to face meeting and go with the aim of getting them to admit the project has become too difficult for them. Be non-confrontational and say you are there for a resolution.

If you want to continue working with them, try to get some definite points down to move forward with the project and a timescale for each.

Do not lose your temper or get upset, but try to understand that sometimes projects get out of control. It hurts to lose money, I totally understand that because it has happened to me, but salvage what you can and then move on.

As far as I can see, best case scenario would be to keep what they have done and say you are willing to leave it there, providing they offer help and advice to the new consultant you hire to finish the job.

Hope that helps.

 

[maxh]

Some people seem to I'm looking for the OP's business here.

I'm not.

I was offering a favour - I don't have time for more work and I don't want it.

 

[internetspaceships]

Apologies Max I wasn't meaning that. Your name just fit the scenario of forum recommendations in the context of my post.

It could have been Sirearl just as easily

 

[Christine Hough]

I do feel for the OP as one of the hardest things about running your own business is finding reliable and helpful consultants that deliver on time.

I'll answer your original question rather than berate you for what others perceive your mistakes to be!

My first comment was how to move on, and so was Maxh's.

The rest concur that it is very difficult to assess if a contractor can deliver before commissioning. It would be foolish to not try to learn from the all-to-common scenario and consider how to avoid the pitfalls. Both for the Op and for other readers. The contract info that only if it contains a statement that 'time is of the essence' does it mean a default if it over runs is also good information.

I hope the OP does not read this thread as only criticism.

 

[Root 66 Woodshop]

Personally, I'd look at the loss of 2k and think sod it, move on... find someone else to do the work and get the cheque book out again, only this time making sure that they know exactly what they're getting into and what I'm getting into.

Why not give some of the yokels on here a call, see what kind of "realistic" price you get then move on from there?

End of the day, the current provider has already broken the contract "within 6 weeks" agreement so legally you're no longer bound to the contract - Although personally, I'd check up on that one

 

[Private Detective London]

Any project like this there really does needsto be clear boundarys and realistic dates set before a project is begun. We learned this using 'offshore' developers on a website, we had similar experience as the OP and eventually wrote of the project as a mistake and found a more local business who were able to deliver to a set date.

If you can I would sugest a sit down meeting with the compan to dicuess the project and their ability to complete and/or if they wish to.

 

[Concept Vehicle Leasing]

SnappyJen has hit the nail on the head here. What you need is a solution forward not looking back at what has happened. Mistakes happen and as far as issues go £2k is not as major as the issue could have been. If it was a scam I think NO work would have been done. Considering a web design can be closer to £20k you have done well to get what you have for £2k.
Unfortunately it is not as complete as you would have liked but at least I believe you have received your £2k worth in time and work anyway. My suggestion (in addition to SnappyJen's ideas) is to also look for someone in the area who can help you finish the site while you speak with the current workers on what can be resolved with the problems they have come up against.

Good luck to you and we hope all ends well.

I do feel for the OP as one of the hardest things about running your own business is finding reliable and helpful consultants that deliver on time.

I'll answer your original question rather than berate you for what others perceive your mistakes to be!

Firstly, I would set up a face to face meeting and go with the aim of getting them to admit the project has become too difficult for them. Be non-confrontational and say you are there for a resolution.

If you want to continue working with them, try to get some definite points down to move forward with the project and a timescale for each.

Do not lose your temper or get upset, but try to understand that sometimes projects get out of control. It hurts to lose money, I totally understand that because it has happened to me, but salvage what you can and then move on.

As far as I can see, best case scenario would be to keep what they have done and say you are willing to leave it there, providing they offer help and advice to the new consultant you hire to finish the job.

Hope that helps.

 

[Paul Norman]

As a slight aside, both parties have been naive.

You describe this as a complex database and website. Which, to anyone experienced in this arena, means the quotation was ridiculously low.

This means the business quoting had totally failed to understand the brief. Likewise, you, due potentially to inexperience, failed to recognise this.

I would not recommend trying to slug out this situation legally. Both sides have shown inexperience, and both sides have lost out financially.

Move on.

 

[goodguy]

The OP may be naive, but all of us been this at sometime.
The issue is with the web design company, it wouldn't have taken long to realize his mistake with the quote and should have put his hands up, and refunded the money. But he didn't and hoped for the best and guess tried to outsource it to outside the UK or to a student, who couldn't deliver.
The issue is that many web designers think they can delivery a project using a free or off the shelf product and do a few changes. Any when they are unable to do it, they can't dig themselves out of the hole, due to the price they quoted.