Vaccine anyone?

[Justin Smith]

No, s


Sorry, no, you keep misquoting me - which is poor forum etiquette.

Go debate with your cat.

It's one of the most annoying things about forums, people misquoting you, or, just as bad, taking quotes out of context.

 

[Mr D]

No, s


Sorry, no, you keep misquoting me - which is poor forum etiquette.

Go debate with your cat.

And you keep pointing out you have no idea. Using different words but stating the same thing.
Not in any way misquoting you.

It is ok to say you do not know. Using those words.

 

[Talay]

Vaccine ? Not in this lifetime.

 

[alan1302]

No, I didn’t say I have no idea, I said I’d use a job recruitment site - a place where those seeking and/or offering work, gather. Please try to keep up.

You think there are a lot of out of work nurses and doctors then?

 

[Ian J]

You think there are a lot of out of work nurses and doctors then?

There are certainly a lot of nurses who have left the industry for a variety of reasons who could possibly be tempted back

 

[Mr D]

There are certainly a lot of nurses who have left the industry for a variety of reasons who could possibly be tempted back

And NHS has been running campaigns to get them back for the past several years.
Without perhaps making changes to what forced them out in the first place.

 

[simon field]

You think there are a lot of out of work nurses and doctors then?

Because that’s not my industry, I don’t have the contacts to call on I’m afraid.

What I do know is, the majority of competent people can be adequately trained to do menial tasks in a short period of time, in order to free up more experienced staff to do their duties properly.

 

[alan1302]

What I do know is, the majority of competent people can be adequately trained to do menial tasks in a short period of time, in order to free up more experienced staff to do their duties properly.

So what menial tasks are doctors/nurses doing that someone else could be doing?

 

[Newchodge]

So what menial tasks are doctors/nurses doing that someone else could be doing?

Brain surgery? My sister in law does brain surgery in what would be her spare time, if she weren't working flat out as a consultant neurosurgeon.

 

[Ian J]

So what menial tasks are doctors/nurses doing that someone else could be doing?

Nurses do quite a lot of menial work that could be delegated to less experienced and less qualified Health Care Assistants

 

[alan1302]

Nurses do quite a lot of menial work that could be delegated to less experienced and less qualified Health Care Assistants

Such as?

And the suggestion was that it should be done by non qualified people.

 

[Clodbuster]

Such as?

And the suggestion was that it should be done by non qualified people.

It would be very easy to train up a reasonably intelligent individual to give the vaccine. If I can be trained up to administer trauma aid including inserting a drip and morphine when in the army in a couple of days it will be a piece of tacky. The mind boggles now but we practised inserting a drip to a buddy plenty years ago

 

[alan1302]

It would be very easy to train up a reasonably intelligent individual to give the vaccine. If I can be trained up to administer trauma aid including inserting a drip and morphine when in the army in a couple of days it will be a piece of tacky. The mind boggles now but we practised inserting a drip to a buddy plenty years ago

The original post I was replying to was about NHS staffing levels - not the vaccine being given out - although agree that people can be trained up to administer the vaccine quickly.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

it will be a piece of tacky

Rhodie slang for plimsoll

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Nurses do quite a lot of menial work that could be delegated to less experienced and less qualified Health Care Assistants

But from what I've seen to give an injection you need 1 nurse. 5 x watchers in PPE, 15 x photographers and 5 x TV crews. I'm not sure where you would get all those photographers.

(For Simon and Justin. That was a joke)

 

[Ian J]

But from what I've seen to give an injection you need 1 nurse. 5 x watchers in PPE, 15 x photographers and 5 x TV crews. I'm not sure where you would get all those photographers.

Not just any nurse to administer the vaccine but the hospital's senior nurse

 

[Mr D]

It would be very easy to train up a reasonably intelligent individual to give the vaccine. If I can be trained up to administer trauma aid including inserting a drip and morphine when in the army in a couple of days it will be a piece of tacky. The mind boggles now but we practised inserting a drip to a buddy plenty years ago

Yes would be a matter of a few hours or so to train someone to give a vaccine.

Its the problems that can occur - knowing how to deal with allergic reaction / anaphylaxis. How to cope with fear of needles. How to cope with agitated / aggressive patients.
Plenty of stuff that is needed - nurses will get trained on them over time anyway. However someone off the street volunteering to jab people will be pretty useless if there is any problem.

 

[gpietersz]

Its the problems that can occur - knowing how to deal with allergic reaction / anaphylaxis. How to cope with fear of needles.

As some who has a fear of needles, I somewhat agree.

That said, doctors and nurses, despite training do not get. They keep reassuring me it will not hurt. I am not scared it will hurt. I would just rather they punched me in the face because that may hurt more but would involve a needed.

As for anaphylaxis there are solutions. For example, you have one or two doctors and nurses supervising a room of trained volunteers.

 

[Clodbuster]

Yes would be a matter of a few hours or so to train someone to give a vaccine.

Its the problems that can occur - knowing how to deal with allergic reaction / anaphylaxis. How to cope with fear of needles. How to cope with agitated / aggressive patients.
Plenty of stuff that is needed - nurses will get trained on them over time anyway. However someone off the street volunteering to jab people will be pretty useless if there is any problem.

Are you suggesting they should be entirely on their own - I'm not. It really is not necessary to LOOK for problems that are not there. Saying that - I did have to treat a fellow combatant who had been shot and did not fall over and start frothing at the mouth in anxiety attacks.

 

[simon field]

Such as?

And the suggestion was that it should be done by non qualified people.

Paperwork has always been a big waste of time.

 

[Mr D]

As some who has a fear of needles, I somewhat agree.

That said, doctors and nurses, despite training do not get. They keep reassuring me it will not hurt. I am not scared it will hurt. I would just rather they punched me in the face because that may hurt more but would involve a needed.

As for anaphylaxis there are solutions. For example, you have one or two doctors and nurses supervising a room of trained volunteers.

Yes, medical staff supervising will help a lot. Unless more than expected numbers needing help.
Its easier to simply use the medical staff to give the injection.

 

[Mr D]

Paperwork has always been a big waste of time.

Will the people who lost family in the Grenfell fire agree with you?
Will those involved in court cases they hope to win agree with you?

You've also presumably never had to deal with someone else's affairs. Paperwork when you don't have access to someone else's memories can be a good idea.
Heck, we often refer people on here to their contract. Their paperwork. Still a big waste of time?

 

[gpietersz]

Yes, medical staff supervising will help a lot. Unless more than expected numbers needing help.
Its easier to simply use the medical staff to give the injection.

Yes, right now the biggest problem is supply and distribution.

Some good news of effectiveness I came across. The JVCI estimate of the effectiveness of the first dose is pretty high: https://www.cas.mhra.gov.uk/ViewandAcknowledgment/ViewAttachment.aspx?Attachment_id=103741

Median estimates of 89% for the Pfizer one and 73% for Astrazeneca - although the 95% confidence intervals are very wide, going down to approx 50% for both.

 

[Ian J]

Paperwork has always been a big waste of time.

True and nursey wife wastes far too much time on paperwork due to the fact that we now live in a litigation society and all backsides have to be covered at all costs

 

[Mr D]

True and nursey wife wastes far too much time on paperwork due to the fact that we now live in a litigation society and all backsides have to be covered at all costs

People will still die or be hurt. But paper trail will be a mile wide to apportion blame.

 

[alan1302]

True and nursey wife wastes far too much time on paperwork due to the fact that we now live in a litigation society and all backsides have to be covered at all costs

And you and Simon would be happy having untrained staff sorting out?

 

[Ian J]

And you and Simon would be happy having untrained staff sorting out?

I am married to a nurse and listen to her complaints every night. Pray tell me your experience of the profession and exactly what they do in a day's work

 

[Jyothi Tulasi]

Not sure, what the researchers were doing in the 4th stage of testing. Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market. Not sure when we are in such a hurry how adverse the results will be.

 

[Ian J]

Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market. Not sure when we are in such a hurry how adverse the results will be.

The answer is readily available if you use google to look for you

 

[Chris Ashdown]

Not sure, what the researchers were doing in the 4th stage of testing. Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market. Not sure when we are in such a hurry how adverse the results will be.

The same way they bring out a new variant of the flu jab each year and apparently much of the corvid knowledge came from a few years ago when the first strain appeared i.e. corvid-1 which i think was called sarms or something like that, so not working from a cold startup but had some basic facts to work on

 

[Clodbuster]

This Oxford vaccine took 48 hours after receipt of the genome to develop - the rest of the time taken up by sourcing funding and testing.

 

[Deleted member 59730]

Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market. Not sure when we are in such a hurry how adverse the results will be.

No they don't. All medicines are rushed to market for a very simple reason. Having spent about $1 billion on development the drug companies want to get their money back as soon as possible. Drug patents are too short to mess about.

 

[gpietersz]

Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market.

That is a gross exaggeration. Clinical trials take a few years. Do you realise that if it really took 20 years any patents would have expired by the time the trails finished? The pharmaceutical industry gets most of its turnover from the markup on in-patent drugs (they are several times the cost).

In the case of covid vaccines they have emergency use approval because there is a pandemic.

They are (in the UK, at least) initially being given to people in high risk groups. For those people the slightly higher risk of adverse effects is well worth it because they are at risk. I am hoping that friends and family at risk get it as soon as possible.

By the time the rest of us are offered either vaccine, millions of people in the UK,and tens or hundreds of millions around the world, will have had it over a period of months so we will have a lot more data on safety.

 

[gpietersz]

The same way they bring out a new variant of the flu jab each year and apparently much of the corvid knowledge came from a few years ago when the first strain appeared i.e. corvid-1 which i think was called sarms or something like that, so not working from a cold startup but had some basic facts to work on

SARS. The full names of the two are sars-cov-1 and sars-cov-2.

SARS died out before vaccines were ready.

AFAIK they are more different from each other than flu variants are, but they are similar enough that 1. it speeded up the development of some types of vaccines and 2. people exposed to SARS have resistance/immunity to covid.

 

[Mr D]

No they don't. All medicines are rushed to market for a very simple reason. Having spent about $1 billion on development the drug companies want to get their money back as soon as possible. Drug patents are too short to mess about.

That rushing to market can merely take a decade or more.
What with testing, multiple stages, not to mention waiting for some government body to accept the drug is safe.

 

[DontAsk]

Not sure, what the researchers were doing in the 4th stage of testing. Generally, it takes 20+ years of proper testing to release any medicine or vaccine in the market. Not sure when we are in such a hurry how adverse the results will be.

Did the last SARS vaccine take that long?

Did the ebola vaccine take that long?

You do know, (don't you?) that researchers were already working on these types of vaccines because they realise that it was only a matter of time before we had another corona virus outbreak. There's already a ton of knowledge on mRNA vaccines.

 

[alan1302]

I am married to a nurse and listen to her complaints every night. Pray tell me your experience of the profession and exactly what they do in a day's work

Why don't you answer the question then? You might be married to a nurse and hear her complaints but have not answered the question as to if untrained people would be suitable to fill in paperwork especially when you yourself said they need to do it to cover their own back sides.

 

[gpietersz]

Did the last SARS vaccine take that long?

It took long enough that SARS (meaning sars-civ-1) had died away before it was available.

 

[Clodbuster]

I see that infected people carry immunity for reinfection for as long as a vaccine. 83% non re-infection over 6600 test subjects from early in 2020. Length is still not known but 6 months has gone by and full data will be released after 12 months. Those that were re-infected showed very minor symptoms. Public Health England.

 

[Ian J]

I've just posted on another thread as I'd forgotten about this one but wifey had her vaccination a couple of days ago as well as many other nurses from her hospital and many of them have phoned in sick today suffering from the side effects of the vaccination including bad headaches, nausea and fainting and the nursing staff are stretched even more than normal today with all of these absences.