Think I've been conned

[paultervit]

Hello
I am looking for some advice. I've hired someone to work on a website for me and up until now everything seems to have been going fine. Only today I received an email from another website stating I had stolen there design.

My site is as follows

www.thegiftnetwork.co.uk

theres is

www.zeropricetags.com

I can definitly see the designer has used the other site as a basis for mines but do you think they have a legal claim to make me remove my site. If they do can I legally claim my deposit back off the designer.

Heres the email I got from zeropricetags.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To Whomever It May Concern:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]It has come to my attention that you have made an unauthorized use of my copyrighted design in ZeroPriceTags.com belonging to ZeroPriceTags, Inc, (the "Work") in the preparation of a work derived therefrom. I have reserved all rights in the Work, first published in August of 2007, and have registered copyright therein. Your work entitled TheGiftNetwork.Co.UK is essentially identical to the Work and clearly used the Work as its basis: the arrows, the boxes, the style of the design.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As you neither asked for nor received permission to use the Work as the basis for TheGiftNetwork.Co.UK nor to make or distribute copies, including electronic copies, of same, I believe you have willfully infringed my rights under 17 U.S.C. Section 101 et seq. and could be liable for statutory damages as high as $150,000 USD as set forth in Section 504(c)(2) therein.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I demand that you immediately cease the use and distribution of all infringing works derived from the Work, and all copies, including electronic copies, of same, that you deliver to me, if applicable, all unused, undistributed copies of same, or destroy such copies immediately and that you desist from this or any other infringement of my rights in the future. If I have not received an affirmative response from you by May 28, 2008 indicating that you have fully complied with these requirements, I shall take further action against you.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Very truly yours,
[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John Kirkpatrick
ZeroPriceTags,Inc. [/FONT]

 

[Esther]

Hello, what a tricky situation to be in, I do feel for you. The two sites are very similar but I'm not sure if the style of the arrows and boxes can be copywrited as surely there are loads of sites using these styles?

What does the developer have to say on it? Have you asked where they got their inspiration from?

 

[dave_n]

it appears both sites are joomla rip-offs!

but your site and his site are certainly not alike in the sense that the design layouts are the same...BUT the similarities lie in the wording on the nav items and the boxed items...it does look like your dev guy has copied the content and up to a point the layout.

perhaps he should have been a little cleverer and not copied some items word for word.

personally i would get it changed and make sure it's got your own unique branding

 

[mke]

John, don't fret. It's a known American doing the rounds in this country trying to extort money by at least a couple of similar con tricks. He was actually stupid enough to confront a reporter in Glasgow, of all places.

Ask him for proof of copyright for starters. I haven't looked at the two sites yet, but if it's the same guy, it's likely he designed and put up his site after you in order to attempt the con. He'd have to prove in court he did his first. Now, why do I doubt he can do that?

<edit Just had a quick glance. The structures are not similar enough in any respect to enforce copyright. He's bluffing. To put your own mind at rest, use the free half hour most solicitors' practices offer for an initial consultation. You'll walk out a free man. />

<further edit> He'll have one hell of a job enforcing USA jurisdiction here. I hadn't noticed that. But whichever court he chooses (sic, not a cat in hell's chance of him doing that) he'd need to produce server logs to prove how long he's been there and state clearly in which respects he feels you have copied (or been responsible for copying) his site. 'e's 'avin' a larf. Would you like an equally mirthsome reply drafting? </further edit>

 

[cjd]

Ignore it - it's a try on.

But worth asking your designer for a comment.

 

[dave_n]

google 'pagejacking'

 

[duongo]

i wouldn't worry too much, although an email or letter can be scary. i think it's a scare-mongering tactic to make you fret..i'd just take the site down and tell your designer to do his job properly. if you've already paid him fully, put the email to him and see what he says about getting it re-done for you. he owes you at least that. the main issues i think is the layout and wording as dave n has just said.
good luck!

 

[stugster]

Seems his site was redesigned around August 2007: http://web.archive.org/web/20070814120153/http://zeropricetags.com/

 

[paultervit]

Can I just add the sites will have a similar layout as they are both created around the same template. Do you think the actual arrows, words etc can be deamed copyright infringement. The layout is neother originally his or mine.

 

[Blush]

His site isn't too popular,
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/0/325/RipOff0325601.htm

Looks like he has been reported for ripping customers off himself.Sounds like a conman.Maybe he thinks this is a quick way to claw some money in!
I would get legal advice as suggested and get your designer to have another look at it and do some rejigging.

 

[Richard Crisp]

John Kilpatrick pops up on ezine articles and it looks like the same guy, sorry can't post the link but you can search for his articles.
Without all the facts it's hard to say what's gone on here or offer any legal advice. Copyright is a vey complicated matter at the best of times. Definitely get in touch with your designer and get the site redesigned.

 

[paultervit]

richard can you forward me a link to any ezines you know of refering to John Kilpatrick?

 

[JustOneUK]

I would get the wording changed on the homepage, the rest of the design looks original/different enough to me.

 

[Richard Crisp]

I have PM'd you the link Paul.

 

[dataferret]

You can relax - his claim is bull and he cannot enforce it. Clearly there are elements which are similar but both designs are different and the colour schemes etc are also different. The navigation elements are the same but this does not prove copyright infringment. Plenty of sites have identical navigation - most newspapers for example all have similar layouts and navigation.

The clown who contacted you is clearly trying it on and is attempting to extort money by playing on the fact people do not understand what is involved in the design and creation of a website. Ask him for proof his design was original. Most likely it is based on a Joomla template (like yours) which was then customised to produce a more unique layout. If this is the case he does not own copyright anyway.

Call his bluff and ask for proof then forget it am move on with your life

 

[UKSBD]

Would it not be far simpler to just email him back, apologies, explain it
was a web designer you commissioned who created the site and tell him
you haver told your web designer you are not happy and to change it?

Let's face it, if it was the other way around, would you be happy?

 

[paultervit]

OK folks thanks for the advice, gonna speak to the designer tomorrow.

 

[mke]

navigation elements are the same

as on about three hundred thousand or more other sites which have been around for several too many years for this pillock to have any design propriety. Yes, sorry, the design is both naff and dated. And the accuser's claims are bullshit.

I really can't believe the "advice" I'm seeing here. Some crap merchant comes along with a con and one of our members has to change their site, run away, hide from a foreign court, leave their designer blighted with simply dishonest accusations of falsity?

UKBM members, I am ashamed and, frankly, bloody angry with you.

Leave that honest designer alone and speak to a solicitor. if you speak to a designer, it is to ask if they have PI insurance. if so, the insurance company will jump on this blagger like a ton of bricks.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

on this basis, every shopping cart that uses oscommerce style layout is open for legal challenge.

Your sites dont really look the same - colours, general layout, so it is probably nothing to worry about. Also, he would need to quote a UK law to go after you!

 

[davidjgoss87]

just ignore the emails and get on with it, he won't go so far as to get legal people involved and he'll give up.

 

[quikshop]

just ignore the emails and get on with it, he won't go so far as to get legal people involved and he'll give up.

Couldn't agree more, don't waste your time with a response, your website looks different (and better) than his but I would consider changing some of the text to increase the difference.

 

[brian.mckenna]

i wouldnt worry too much. good advice above you should re post in legal forum for some advice. alternatively see a solicitor it is well worth the money if only to put your mind at rest

 

[vlad1975]

Speak to your designer, there are many ready made e-commerce scripts out there that can be downloaded and bought, it maybe the sites have been done using the same script service and will contain the same template - if your designer bought the script to use on your site - the copyright will belong to the company who wrote the script. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Page]

Would it not be far simpler to just email him back, apologies, explain it
was a web designer you commissioned who created the site and tell him
you haver told your web designer you are not happy and to change it?

Let's face it, if it was the other way around, would you be happy?

You need to be careful with this - it implies acceptance of fault.

 

[Steve2507]

You need to be careful with this - it implies acceptance of fault.

You are right, do not admit to anything until you have all the facts. As previously mentioned talk to your designer and ask for legal advice.

But the 2 sites look different enough so that I personally wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Steve2507]

Just realised that the other site hasn't even got a copyright at the bottom.

This whole thing looks more like a scam as previously suggested.

 

[Mat_D]

I wouldn't worry. I used to run a niche product review website. Every time I posted a negative review, I received emails from manufacturers, all threatening legal action. It's a bully-boy tactic and any solicitor will tell you there's no substance to it.

 

[ZeroPriceTags]

Honestly, how can anyone say our designs aren't the same? He blatantly ripped off my design and I will press legal charges on him with my lawyer. This isn't some "boy-bullying" system. I have already contacted my lawyer and I will press charges. Your designer knows damn well that this is a ripoff and not some coincidence. Your designer actually asked a coder that has worked for me to code the design, that's what is so ironic.

I don't care if you are from the UK, you blatantly ripped off my website, which was a custom designed website. Everyone who has posted is just plain wrong, this isn't some kind of "Joomla ripoff", sorry to break the news. If you aren't scared like everyone says you shouldn't be, please send me your personal information so I can make sure it matches your WHOIS record information.

Thank you,

John

 

[quikshop]

I don't care if you are from the UK, you blatantly ripped off my website, which was a custom designed website. Everyone who has posted is just plain wrong, this isn't some kind of "Joomla ripoff", sorry to break the news. If you aren't scared like everyone says you shouldn't be, please send me your personal information so I can make sure it matches your WHOIS record information.

John,

It may be a cultural difference but you will find that aggression tends not to work the same way in the UK as it does in the States.

You might get a better response if you tried talking to the guy first and pointed out the specifics of what you believe to have been copied, recording all communications and leaving the possibility of legal action open if you two can't find an amicable solution.

The strong-arm all-guns-blazing aggressive approach whether legitimate or not gets put in the same bracket as a number of blatent scams using the same approach originating from the US at the moment.

I hope you guys can find a solution.

 

[Steve2507]

As Dave says, zeropricetags, give specifics as to what you feel has been copied. The design of your sites is different, but if you think the background programming has been copied you need to be specific.

The only similarities I can see are what you are offering and the red arrows.

Paultervit, personally I wouldn't give out my personal details, this type of thing should be handled through lawyers. I would change a few things on your site to try and put an end to this stupid arguement:

1 - Change the red arrows
2 - Change the wording in the "How does this all work box"
3 - Change the Wording top left that starts "The Gift network is your source...."

That will make them even more different.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

also change the border/background

 

[dataferret]

ZeroPriceTags Just because the design looks similar to yours does not mean it is not unique. HUmans all share similar features (head, arms legs, eyes, nose, mouth ect), but each one is distinctly individual. Even if websites shared the same base code and design, subtle changes make them original. Also, if you could afford the huge fees for lawyers as you suggest, then you would also understand it would be far cheaper to redesign your own site than to pay the legal bills fighting a case you cannot possibly win. The two sites are dinstinctly different and you have no ownership over how a website owner lays out their navigation or color schemes. Move on with your life man.

 

[ZeroPriceTags]

John,

It may be a cultural difference but you will find that aggression tends not to work the same way in the UK as it does in the States.

You might get a better response if you tried talking to the guy first and pointed out the specifics of what you believe to have been copied, recording all communications and leaving the possibility of legal action open if you two can't find an amicable solution.

The strong-arm all-guns-blazing aggressive approach whether legitimate or not gets put in the same bracket as a number of blatent scams using the same approach originating from the US at the moment.

I hope you guys can find a solution.

Dave,

I appreciate your suggestion but I don't feel that I was too aggressive at all. I sent that letter over a month ago, did not receive a response. Then, I found this thread and everyone is saying the following:

it appears both sites are joomla rip-offs!

Great, calling my site's design a Joomla rip-off.

It's a known American doing the rounds in this country trying to extort money by at least a couple of similar con tricks. He was actually stupid enough to confront a reporter in Glasgow, of all places.

Yep, money is all I want, you are exactly right, Mke. Forget about my design, it's all about money...

The clown who contacted you is clearly trying it on and is attempting to extort money by playing on the fact people do not understand what is involved in the design and creation of a website. Ask him for proof his design was original. Most likely it is based on a Joomla template (like yours) which was then customised to produce a more unique layout. If this is the case he does not own copyright anyway.

Here's another "know-it-all"...

So, naturally, I found this website and I realized that...

1. Paul is getting biased opinions from UK users who clearly do not take too keenly to Americans.
2. People who consider themselves "experts" are posting in here, when in fact, they are totally wrong. Example: Saying I won't do anything, trying to call me out, etc.

The idea that I'm just out to get money is completely ridiculous. I have had people ask me if this site is part of my network due to the design, I want to protect my business' image.

This design is totally unique and he clearly just took my design and copied it. It's not like this is a coincidence. If you really want me to, I will go through these designs if it will stop the biased opinions saying that they aren't the same.

Paul, I will be glad to talk to you in a sensible way about this, but I will get my lawyer involved if you continue to dodge me. Please contact me and I will give you my phone number. This thread just added fuel to the fire.

John

 

[mke]

John, I have many fine American friends. They are not loud mouthed dickheads. You are, it would seem.

Take a look at your site and ask your designer some serious questions. There is absolutely nothing original about it. Every single aspect can be found elsewhere on the web.

Our colleague here has done nothing wrong, beyond commissioning yet another "designer" who is incapable of originality in design concepts. If you paid for that "design", more fool you. It most certainly is neither unique nor original.

 

[woodss]

I'm going to go against the tide here.

I feel ZeroPriceTags has been ripped off, although not by the poster of the thread, more the designer he commissioned to build his website.

It looks to me like the ZeroPriceTags site was used as a benchmark, and adapted (very badly). I've seen it before, and i'll see it again no doubt.

This isn't a coincidence, the layout, text information and display are EXACTLY the same, except it hasn't been implemented properly. The only things different are the actual header images, and some other graphics, although design-wise, the original layout/presentation concept remains.

I can't actually see how anyone can see this guy as being unreasonable asking for a COMPETING WEBSITE THAT HAS BEEN DERIVED FROM HIS OWN to be taken down. The only problem I have is the harsh manner in which he has done this, although from the sounds of it he has been dodged by the poster?

If I were the poster of this thread I would:
a) Take the website down immediately
b) Apologise unreservedly to ZeroPriceTags.com
c) Get a refund from my designer
d) Use said refund to commission a new design for my website.

I can totally see why ZeroPriceTags is annoyed - I would be too, especially since in all fairness, the other site is awful in comparison and his customers are associating such low quality with his actual business.

Do the decent thing, take it down.

 

[Mat_D]

Dave,

I appreciate your suggestion but I don't feel that I was too aggressive at all. I sent that letter over a month ago, did not receive a response. Then, I found this thread and everyone is saying the following:

Great, calling my site's design a Joomla rip-off.

Yep, money is all I want, you are exactly right, Mke. Forget about my design, it's all about money...

Here's another "know-it-all"...

So, naturally, I found this website and I realized that...

1. Paul is getting biased opinions from UK users who clearly do not take too keenly to Americans.
2. People who consider themselves "experts" are posting in here, when in fact, they are totally wrong. Example: Saying I won't do anything, trying to call me out, etc.

The idea that I'm just out to get money is completely ridiculous. I have had people ask me if this site is part of my network due to the design, I want to protect my business' image.

This design is totally unique and he clearly just took my design and copied it. It's not like this is a coincidence. If you really want me to, I will go through these designs if it will stop the biased opinions saying that they aren't the same.

Paul, I will be glad to talk to you in a sensible way about this, but I will get my lawyer involved if you continue to dodge me. Please contact me and I will give you my phone number. This thread just added fuel to the fire.

John

Here's a thought. Take all that pent up energy and channel it into growing your business, rather than whining about another design which looks like yours.

If what you offer is good enough, it will stand up regardless.

 

[ZeroPriceTags]

John, I have many fine American friends. They are not loud mouthed dickheads. You are, it would seem.

Name-calling is pointless, if you want to resort to that you can PM me, man, that would be great. Also, I'm sure you do have some fine American friends but I'm not one of them due to your plain wrong opinions without even looking at my site. If I have to be a "dickhead" in your eyes to voice my opinion and get some response directly from Paul, so be it.

Our colleague...

That's exactly why this is so biased, the fact he is your colleague changes a lot of things.

Take a look at your site and ask your designer some serious questions. There is absolutely nothing original about it. Every single aspect can be found elsewhere on the web.

Oh, give me a break here. I want you to find another website on the Internet that looks like mine. It's funny I never found a single thing copied until almost a year later. Man, my designer must be good at copying. I look forward to seeing what you dig up, MKE, if it's anything at all.

 

[new2bus]

In fairness I agree with zeropricetag.

If this had been your site that had been replicated then I am sure you would not be taking the same "tough look" stance.

I have looked at both sites and this is more than a coincidence, it is a pure rip off.

As woodss says above, my advice is get the designer to sort it or get a refund and someone else can sort it, but at least be fair to zeropricetags.

It is more than coincidence that it says
What is ZeroPriceTags?
"is your source for earning money online by completing trials & surveys and referring friends to do the same"

What is GiftNetwork?
"is your source for earning money online by completing trials & surveys and referring friends to do the same"

"How does all this work" duplicated then points 1, 2, 3 all replicated

Both have arrows as it says above

Come on people, let's be fair this is more than just layout, it is actual content.

The designer of the site has a lot to answer for and if I was paultervit I would be aiming my aggression at the designer and asking for a refund.

 

[dataferret]

ZeroPriceTags

Since you insisted in calling me a "Know it all" and insulting my integrity I will no longer be polite. Quite simply my advice to you is either put up or shut up. As I have stated, if you can prove you have an original design and have deep enough pockets to call in a lawyer then quit whining and get on with it. All the contact information and petitions will be taken care of by your legal team for which you will pay handsomely. Go for it and quit your threats and scaremongering. As far as I can see you have no case against Paul at all and he is best advised to ignore you and not give out his personal details.

Alternatively you could always take the advice I gave earlier and which you ignored. Save yourself the money, get a better designer and design then put your energy into running your business instead of making enemies on this site with insulting and threatening behaviour.

 

[Mat_D]

Come on people, let’s be fair this is more than just layout, it is actual content.

The designer of the site has a lot to answer for and if I was paultervit I would be aiming my aggression at the designer and asking for a refund.

Granted, but the guy is a complete chopper. Had he sent a polite email, explaining that the two sites were the same, I expect this entire situation could have been avoided.