Payment Practices of Large Corporate Clients

Ozzy

Founder of UKBF
UKBF Staff
  • Business Listing
    Feb 9, 2003
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    richardosborne.co.uk
    The Government are putting out what is referred to as a "Call for Evidence" from anyone with an interest in what is known as "The Reporting on Payment Practices and Performance Regulations 2017".
    This Call for Evidence is something I'd like UKBF to contribute to as I'm sure there are people here who's business supplies to companies that fall within the above regulations, including my own business BDG which will be including our own experience in the response we submit.

    In short, if you work with large organisations as a supplier how have you found being able to actually start working with them (getting onto their approved supplier lists if relevant) and the how have you found the process of invoicing them and then getting paid. An open question, feel free to share any part of the experience you feel relevant. No need to, and I'd say wise not to, mention actual company names.

    Just some snippets from our own experience to get the ball rolling;
    To become an approved supplier for some of the financial and organisations we work with can take a long time, the longest took 7 years from first meeting to first invoice. This time frame is often not viable for most small businesses, especially as the depth of due diligence is very heavy and as people in these organisations change frequently we had to restart many steps of the process frequently.

    Late payment legislation allows small businesses to charge interest on overdue invoices. We were required to change our invoice terms to 90 days by some organisations or walk away, we can charge interest if payments remain outstanding for 90 days and not our usual standard 30 days. We usually get paid at around 40-45 days which means at any one time I'm floating big 6 figures in outstanding invoices. We are not allowed to use Invoice Finance to factor our debtors, was a requirement drafted into the contracts.

    Once you're on the approved supplier list, you're there and it's regular income.

    On the flip side, I understand as a company becomes such a huge size it must have strict operational procedures to abide by and they won't deviate from those procedures. Strict controls means you go into these relationships with your eyes open. Because all terms and operating procedures are agreed in minute detail before the first order is placed.
    They stipulate their invoice and payment procedures and even if that means you may be getting paid on 60 days, based at least on my experience you will get paid on those 60 days without fail. So at least you know the money is coming in. From my experience it means you have to adapt to fit in with how they work to get the work; so it ultimate becomes a commercial decision whether you want to take on that work or not.
     
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    We had one corporate client who demanded that we provided, in addition to the invoice, a spreadsheet in an electronic data interchange (EDI) format which they could import, otherwise they would not pay up. Of course, they provided no information as to the format of these files, they just provided examples and we had to work it out from there.

    Then they moaned that the cost centres, which they updated themselves, were all wrong so we had to re-produce several months worth of EDI files.

    (this is from my real job, not my e-commerce site)
     
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    For most of our larger clients the key is to understand, and to comply with, their processes.

    It can take a while to achieve that, but once in that routine the payment comes through fairly reliably. As soon as that stops, we know something has changed in the process, and jump on the phone.

    That is the second bit. Make sure you have someone in the organisation you can phone, and be relatively, although politely, blunt with.

    Overall, things are working better than once they did. However, I suspect that is not general!

    But the big offenders are known, and should be regularly named.
     
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    As a second point, and this is key, you have to be firm.

    We provide software. If they don't pay, and we turn it off, their business grinds to a halt.

    I suspect that is why we mostly get paid quickly.

    There are laws about holding customers to ransom. But I can assure you that a polite email saying 'we can no longer guarantee support' normally gets the bank transfer rolling'.

    I did once experience this from the other side. I was a director, and I signed off the monthly bill from our software provider. The FD decided to delay the payment, and they phoned me. I promised them the payment, but asked them to disable the accounting part of the system.

    The FD was in my office 5 minutes later. After I had explained to him how, if I signed off a bill and there was money in the bank he should pay, he transferred the money.

    I just explained that his small minded ego trip at the expense of the whole business was a bit silly. I didn't use the world silly.
     
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    An absolute f*cking nightmare
    Are you able to share any examples or experiences that we could quote? Happy if you want to PM me these rather than publicly.
    We had one corporate client who demanded that we provided, in addition to the invoice, a spreadsheet in an electronic data interchange (EDI) format which they could import
    Yeah, we have to do the same for a couple of our clients. As well as structure the invoices a certain way, with specific references and cost centres, we have to provide data files that match the invoice data too.
    For most of our larger clients the key is to understand, and to comply with, their processes.
    That's been my experience. I don't feel it should be that as a small company you must jump through sometimes highly time consuming and intensive hoops, but I also try to see the other side of a corporate machine and can't see it changing much.
    I do agree though @Paul Norman it's definitely not as a bad as it was 10-15 years ago, the pressure and publicity, and legislation, on larger companies to pay and not sink small businesses has helped.
     
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    I'm a teeny tiny one man band but I do get all sorts on companies (large and small) contact me about custom work. They all pay upfront. I don't write a single line of code without cash in the bank.

    I do get some tell me they only pay 30, 60, 90 days. I tell then that's fine I can wait for 90 days but I'm still not starting work until the invoice has been paid.

    Had one international company quibble over paying £70. I don't earn enough to have to pay VAT and it messed up their invoicing system. They wanted me to register for VAT over a £70 bill. I declined and suggested they find another developer. 4 months later they paid the invoice and I did the work.
     
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    Public sector clients can be the worse, I deal with fire services, some of them their finances are handled by their council and some of those have outsourced to other councils. You can end up dealing with a finance person in 1 part of the country who needs clarification from a procurement dept in another place who both want sign off from the original client who is in a 3rd despite thge invoice containing the agreed PO number and supplier ID number. Once we are set up things are fine but the first invoice can take an age to process
     
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    I thought that the Government had outlawed that practice
    This is interesting...very interesting. Is it really unlawful now, if so I'd like to look into it further.

    The times in previous years I so desperately needed to finance the debtors book. I'm lucky to be a strong position now to carry it, but that wasn't always the case. There were times I was hardline in the overdraft with my house on the line trying to stay afloat.
     
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    Thank you @Ian J for that link. Interesting to see it excludes Public-Private business transactions, and is not enforceable retrospectively, but is still good news. I'm sure you'll agree with this, that factoring is often overlooked by many SME's as a very good means for helping cashflow.
     
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    I've often wondered how big companies work with one another. Given in the big and small company scenario 99 times out of a 100 it is the big company calling the terms of how things get done. What happens when one multi-nat meets another multi-nat, a death-match of bureaucracy, last man standing?

    Seriously though I'd like to know how their unmovable non-negotiable systems (and T&Cs) are catered for by another business who also has their own unmovable, non-negotiable systems (and T&Cs). Unless of course, as we may suspect, they are absolutely negotiable and the neediest of the two bends. So it is basically supply chain bullying by the biggest fish in the pond.

    FWIW we are usually okay as once feet-under-the-table you get used to the dancing to whatever ridiculous tune they ask you to play. Part of doing business. I will say though, we have seen some isolated instances of incredibly poor business ethics involving household names (the types that scream about Corporate Social Responsibility typically) over the years. Point blank refusing to honour purchase orders where stock brought in specifically for them, point blank not paying any invoices purely because of a financial year end and wanting more cash on their balance sheet ...etc etc. I have found SMEs who don't pay don't pay because they are skint for the most part, large corps play games at times even when they have the cash which is, quite frankly, disappointing.
     
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    What happens when one multi-nat meets another multi-nat, a death-match of bureaucracy, last man standing?

    Lots of meetings - lawyered upon both sides and tough negotiations over every point of the contract. Trust me I have been there in my corporate life before I was released. The good thing is is City lawyer offices have great cookies ( well at least they did before 2008 ), if you appreciate a biscuit during negotiations.

    Oh and I forgot to mention, in my experience, big Corporates can actually be very flexible and deviate from their set processes when the stakes are big enough. It only takes one call from someone high enough up the hierarchy to make things happen.
     
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    we have seen some isolated instances of incredibly poor business ethics involving household names over the years. Point blank refusing to honour purchase orders where stock brought in specifically for them, point blank not paying any invoices purely because of a financial year end and wanting more cash on their balance sheet ...etc etc. I have found SMEs who don't pay don't pay because they are skint for the most part, large corps play games at times even when they have the cash which is, quite frankly, disappointing.

    Nothing new there then as that sort of behaviour has been going on ever since I started work many decades ago
     
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    I would recommend @Ian J if you are in a situation and need to see the funds quickly and expand your business at the same time.

    I never have any problems we are strict with our terms and make it clear that we will walk away if our terms are not respected
     
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    It does not have to be big companies, we spent years trying to sell school uniforms, we had our own embroidery department yet no school would give us the right to use their logo, they got a big amount of money from one supplier in town and never offered any tenders opportunities
     
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    they got a big amount of money from one supplier in town and never offered any tenders opportunities
    If the school is publicly funded, they're not allowed to do that. Everything has to go to tender with evidence for governance. Private schools may be different, but state schools that's a big no no.
     
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    If the school is publicly funded, they're not allowed to do that. Everything has to go to tender with evidence for governance. Private schools may be different, but state schools that's a big no no.
    They fiddle the tenders. My wife was a governor and there were all sorts of ways they got who they wanted rather than who was the best fit. It’s no different to how many public contracts are awarded. Read Private Eye to find out more.
     
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    The very worst large corporate client I have experienced by a huge margin is the BBC. Nobody pays as poorly or as slowly as the BBC. I have once dealt with them directly and discovered that they just ignore union rates and industry-standard rates completely. They have special BBC rates for programmes and workforce costs. They paid £37 for a five-minute short piece.

    Example one - a high-profile rock band used our facilities to produce a one hour mix of live music and documentary on their lives. Transmitted in primetime on BBC Alaba. Payment - nothing.

    Example two - a customer used our facilities to edit a one-hour documentary. The expenses of the two-man crew of about £25k were met by an insurance company that did not feature or were in any way promoted in the programme. Transmitted on BBC2. Payment £500.
     
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    I used to deliver to several large organisations.

    The invoice systems evolved as the years went by from dropping off the monthly invoice at the office to sending pdf’s to head office.

    When it worked it was fine but when it didn’t it could be a nightmare. You might email an invoice in with a pdf attached and it would just disappear from the system and you simply wouldn’t get paid. And of course with a 30/60/90 day payment period it was all to easy to miss the fact that the invoice you’d sent 3 months ago hadn’t been paid.

    Then you’d have to chase it up with a duplicate invoice and of course that would take months to get paid as well.
     
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    At my old company which regularly gave discounted rates (normal in recruitment) all rate agreements said the special rate was dependant upon payment within terms and that was again listed on invoices.

    When their finance dept were faced with the idea that a failure to cough up within x period of time of the credit control call or expect a new invoice that would add 33% to the cost they tended to find a way to pay (standard fee was 20% and a discounted fee to 15% was quite usual) - this also meant if we ever ended in court (about 1 client every 5 years) we could claim the full standard fee amount which compensated for the hassle factor, also the refund period if someone left soon after starting was dependant upon payment having been within terms as well
     
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    The very worst large corporate client I have experienced by a huge margin is the BBC.
    Many years ago the BBC worldwide dept sent me a new contract. Apparently my reply was photocopied several times and stuck up round the office.

    Dear Sirs

    Thank you for sending me the BBC Worldwide Terms and Conditions.

    Unfortunately they are completely unacceptable to me and my picture library.

    Paragraph 2 is exceptionally  objectionable as it is not possible to supply anyone with copyright material without putting Terms and Conditions specific to that use in the Terms and Conditions and described on the invoice. Would the BBC for instance be willing to sell any of their copyright material under these terms and conditions? If you sell broadcast rights to a programme to a small country like Ras al Kaimah do you not restrict their right to broadcast only in that country? Wouldn't you be a bit annoyed if the Ras al Kaimah Broadcasting Corporation passed the tape on to NBC or CBS in the USA? Well Mr Christie what goes for the BBC also goes for me!
    
    Paragraph 13.2 is also a bit of a worry. I have special Terms and Conditions for supply "throughout the Universe". The Universe starts with the Sun and extends outwards to Mercury and Venus. Parts of these are very hot places and my T&Cs stipulate that my client, you, must ensure adequate fireproof packing when sending my material to these places. I also stipulate that special insurance cover is in place for material sent to Mars in case a space probe lands on my material. I have heard that Saturn is a big place. Any royalty sales to Saturn bear a 300% surcharge plus an additional 25% for each moon.

    Paragraph 13.3 asks me to waive Moral Rights. Unfortunately this is not possible. I am the author of my photographs and have moral rights under UK law. There is no way these can be changed. Are you suggesting that the BBC can claim to have taken my photographs and not me? Its a bit like making a film of a Jane Austen novel and calling it a William Shakespeare play. Paragraph 13.3 is such a nonsense that I looked for a date of April 1st on your letter.

    The only time I have seen Terms and Conditions as silly as these was the seven pages of contract I got from the Walt Disney Company. I told them I didn't want to deal with a Mickey Mouse organisation and unless you change your document drastically I don't want to deal with you either.
     
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    At least Disney pays crews and journalists generous US union rates. The BBC doesn't even do that and expects actors to perform at well below UK Equity rates and meet their own expenses!
     
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    I just did a quick search - the FSB used to publish a 'hall of shame' of slow players. Usually those who contractually awarded themselves 90 day terms. The membership was quite interesting.

    It seems they no longer do it, presumably for legal reasons.
     
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    Usually those who contractually awarded themselves 90 day terms.
    I had a customer like that. We supplied about 7 branches. They sent us a letter saying they would deduct 5% if we requested 60 day payment. We added 5% to their bills and 15 years later they still hadn't noticed.
     
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