Leased Line/EFM etc needed...

[David Neilands]

Hello,

I am in real need of a better connection at my home where i run my business from. Right now through BT i recieve 14 down and 1.2~ up which in my line of business is horrible to live with. I have to upload large Photoshop files on a daily basis (e.g the other day it took over 12 hours to upload 6GB).

I really need to find a solution for this as it is costing me money and time. The problem is the area i live in is not a cable area (fttp). Yes the exchange has fiber to it (Tewkesbury SSTXY) but am about a mile away from the exchange as the crow flys. I would say there is little to no infrastructure already in place apart from i know the leisure center along the main road towards the echange does have a leased line in place (not sure if some of the routing can be done in the same space) but it is not the most direct route and there is about 70% residential between me and the exchange. On LineBroker.co.uk the best quote is £329 pm with Vodafone but i would love to know an estimate or general idea of what ECC might be in a low connectivity area. Of course i know that providers cover up to a certain amount and of course a survey needs to be carried out regardless, but some kind of case study of someone in my situation must exsist somewhere.

Can anyone help?

Thank you

 

[ccsleedsltd]

Hi. Two of the main carriers now have (gu)estimating tools available to provide a reasonable stab at the cost of installation, and we have fibre maps for the main 3 available too.
If you would like me to review, drop me a PM with your full address please and I'll run it for you.

 

[EmC007]

Happy to check it for you also. Send me a PM with your broadband number and address with postcode and I can get your options.

 

[MichaelParris]

Hi David,

I trust you are well. I am on the same page as Harrison as two offices/houses next to each other can be subject to completely different pricing. If you are able to provide a number that your broadband sits on at the moment or at the very least a postcode then I can provide you with some accurate pricing.

Kind Regards

Michael Parris
Cavendish Communications Ltd

 

[webgeek]

The beauty of picking up an ethernet connect from BT, you get the fibre put in to the house, keep the 1 year commitment, then after you can cancel the expensive service and get your 29.99 priced FTTC connection that runs all the way to your house - thus keeping the full expensive speed at a fraction of the cost. At least that's how it has worked for years in areas with limited fibre availability. Your mileage may vary.

 

[msp-nick]

Hi David,

Happy to give you a quote, please PM me your post code and we will make sure we get you what you need!

Thank you.
Nick.

 

[ccsleedsltd]

The beauty of picking up an ethernet connect from BT, you get the fibre put in to the house, keep the 1 year commitment, then after you can cancel the expensive service and get your 29.99 priced FTTC connection that runs all the way to your house - thus keeping the full expensive speed at a fraction of the cost. At least that's how it has worked for years in areas with limited fibre availability. Your mileage may vary.

What utter cobblers.
FTTC is NOT FTTP.

 

[webgeek]

When you get FTTP installed, then run it a year, then decommission it, then order FTTC, you get the benefit of FTTP with the price of FTTC. I've installation managed this type of scenario dozens of times for BT, so unless things have changed radically since then, it still likely works the same way.

No idea what you're cobbling gobbling about @ccsleedsltd - but maybe you've got more recent BT installation management experience and advise to share....

 

[ccsleedsltd]

When you get FTTP installed, then run it a year, then decommission it, then order FTTC, you get the benefit of FTTP with the price of FTTC. I've installation managed this type of scenario dozens of times for BT, so unless things have changed radically since then, it still likely works the same way.

No idea what you're cobbling gobbling about @ccsleedsltd - but maybe you've got more recent BT installation management experience and advise to share....

FTTP is NOT an Ethernet connection.
You stated "The beauty of picking up an ethernet connect from BT"
Furthermore, you would be aware install pricing for FTTP is in banding from A to H, H being £10k+ of course, and BT retail charge this on just as any other ISP would, as ultimately they are only contracting Openreach to do the work for them.
Finally assuming you did order FTTC at the end of your contract period, you would get FTTC, and NOT FTTP...

 

[webgeek]

Ethernet, FTTC, broadband, and now voice all run over 21CN. It's all the same piggin' IP network.
10-12 years ago they started cutting over the circuits and recently the voice traffic, all onto the same IP network. You could have a different NTE coming out the wall, but the same 8 wires come into the premises and carry the IP traffic to the slip/pad/cabinet, the same trunk on to the exchange, where the same routers carry the IP traffic onto the core/backbone.

Unless you're running a high speed server and need symmetric speeds (the same up as down) at or near 100MB+, I have no idea why someone would want ethernet these days anyway. 75MB+ down, 16+MB up is easy to come by, and cheap.

 

[webgeek]

Finally assuming you did order FTTC at the end of your contract period, you would get FTTC, and NOT FTTP...

That's not generally the case. I know, I worked provisioning X25 circuits 9-5, had Wholesale job control on the phone every day and dealt with the full team at Croydon on a regular basis.

While one rep might decommission the entire thing, it would be extremely rare. It's 100x easier for all parties to make use of the existing (recently provided) infrastructure and keep it all intact.

As I say, it could be you get the 1 in 100 or 1 in 1000 who does it that way, but of all the examples and stories I've ever encountered, that's not how it was done.

 

[ccsleedsltd]

Ethernet, FTTC, broadband, and now voice all run over 21CN. It's all the same piggin' IP network.
10-12 years ago they started cutting over the circuits and recently the voice traffic, all onto the same IP network. You could have a different NTE coming out the wall, but the same 8 wires come into the premises and carry the IP traffic to the slip/pad/cabinet, the same trunk on to the exchange, where the same routers carry the IP traffic onto the core/backbone.

Unless you're running a high speed server and need symmetric speeds (the same up as down) at or near 100MB+, I have no idea why someone would want ethernet these days anyway. 75MB+ down, 16+MB up is easy to come by, and cheap.

8 wires huh? Clearly you know your beans.
Ethernet rather than FTTC.
1. Symmetrical
2. Not dialler based, persistent connection
3. Not arriving over some left over copper that could be 50 years old, paper insulated and flakes at this first sign of a shower
4. Has a useful SLA
5. Uncontended

 

[ccsleedsltd]

That's not generally the case. I know, I worked provisioning X25 circuits 9-5, had Wholesale job control on the phone every day and dealt with the full team at Croydon on a regular basis.
.

It isn't an X.25 cct. It is a totally different product.
If you ordered an FTTP service, that is what you would get. If you cancelled and ordered an FTTC service, that is what you would get.
Aside from anything else there is quite a gap in the wholesale costs.

And yes, we do have "recent" experience, provisioning such services day in day out, and our last experience with BTW being an hour ago rather than in the days of an X.25 service..

 

[webgeek]

1. If you need 100mb upload, then high speed is indeed required, even after year one. Personally, I tend to put 100mb+ upload speed circuits in a server room in dedicated hosting, not in my office park closet, but that's just me. You're definitely right though @ccsleedsltd - if the OP needs 100mb+ upload speeds, then please ignore everything I've said.
2. A one and done dial that happens once every time a Tory is elected as PM may be called a non-persistent connection, but practically speaking the two are indistinguishable.
3. You won't be using ancient copper, since it was a new high speed circuit you paid for, for the first year.
4. You want an SLA? Sign up for business services, pay 59 or 79 a month.
5. Contention hasn't been an issue on BT since God was a small boy. You're talking about ADSL from the dawn of time, not circuits of this century.

I'm sure you'd enjoy making 10k or 20k off the OP, but personally, I'd think a requirements analysis and some creative thinking could save them that much after year 1 and is worth exploring.

 

[webgeek]

X25 is no different than any other product - they all run on 21CN.

X25 used to run on dial up, except for higher demand situations like air traffic control and large banks, in which case some went broadband like ADSL, and others went high speed, IP at varying speeds.

X25 is just a protocol that encapsulated the packets as they traversed the network. It rides along the same fibre that every other product rides on - it just terminates a bit differently at the endpoints.

 

[ccsleedsltd]

1. If you need 100mb upload, then high speed is indeed required, even after year one. Personally, I tend to put 100mb+ upload speed circuits in a server room in dedicated hosting, not in my office park closet, but that's just me. You're definitely right though @ccsleedsltd - if the OP needs 100mb+ upload speeds, then please ignore everything I've said.
2. A one and done dial that happens once every time a Tory is elected as PM may be called a non-persistent connection, but practically speaking the two are indistinguishable.
3. You won't be using ancient copper, since it was a new high speed circuit you paid for, for the first year.
4. You want an SLA? Sign up for business services, pay 59 or 79 a month.
5. Contention hasn't been an issue on BT since God was a small boy. You're talking about ADSL from the dawn of time, not circuits of this century.

I'm sure you'd enjoy making 10k or 20k off the OP, but personally, I'd think a requirements analysis and some creative thinking could save them that much after year 1 and is worth exploring.

We are going around in circles here.

The customers' premises has neither FTTC nor FTTP available so your entire post is meaningless in this context.

 

[webgeek]

The point, in my first post, was simply they can get a high speed circuit for a year, cease it, keep the infrastructure and get a much cheaper high speed option in year two through re-use.

If they go Ethernet, what they'll get will be a fibre connection into the premises terminated with an ethernet jack so they can plug in a router of choice.

The cool thing is that after year one, the network terminating equipment can provide fibre all the way to the premises, while being charged at a fibre to the cabinet sort of pricing. The last run from cab to premises would normally be old copper, but instead will be fibre, because it's already installed all the way to the premises.

There's no circle here. It's simple re-use. Happens all the time and by design it's done by those savvy enough to understand the system.

BT haven't gone out and ripped out the fibre from cab to premises upon contract end, especially in cases where someone is ordering FTTC or similar.

If you truly need 100mb up and 100mb down, then you'd have to switch to an SDSL package that probably would have to be a couple of bonded lines to hit this. If you can get by with 75mb or similar, then suddenly you drop into the realm of retail pricing which is 1/10th of what the year one cost is like:
Year 1:
https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/bt-leased-lines/

 

[ccsleedsltd]

The point, in my first post, was simply they can get a high speed circuit for a year, cease it, keep the infrastructure and get a much cheaper high speed option in year two through re-use.

If they go Ethernet, what they'll get will be a fibre connection into the premises terminated with an ethernet jack so they can plug in a router of choice.

The cool thing is that after year one, the network terminating equipment can provide fibre all the way to the premises, while being charged at a fibre to the cabinet sort of pricing. The last run from cab to premises would normally be old copper, but instead will be fibre, because it's already installed all the way to the premises.

There's no circle here. It's simple re-use. Happens all the time and by design it's done by those savvy enough to understand the system.

BT haven't gone out and ripped out the fibre from cab to premises upon contract end, especially in cases where someone is ordering FTTC or similar.

If you truly need 100mb up and 100mb down, then you'd have to switch to an SDSL package that probably would have to be a couple of bonded lines to hit this. If you can get by with 75mb or similar, then suddenly you drop into the realm of retail pricing which is 1/10th of what the year one cost is like:
Year 1:
https://business.bt.com/products/broadband/bt-leased-lines/

Except as I clearly stated, there is no FTTC or FTTP in the area, so you can't re-purpose an Ethernet service into FTTP in year 2. Furthermore a one year contract for Ethernet with BT (Directly) has a £5k install...

 

[webgeek]

Yes, you pay for a 1 year contract. Calculate the diff between a 5 year EFM and a 1 year EFM with 4 years of FTTC and you'll find option 2 is astronomically cheaper.

Also, you CAN repurpose EFM from year one. It's a fibre connection. You may have to swap NTE's, but it's unlikely. You'll just need a different router config (if you're lucky), or NTE swap then router config. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill - this is easy peasy Openreach day 1 engineering stuff.

 

[webgeek]

@OP it's up to you to find your way on this.

I'm not going to continue saying yes to someone who only knows 'NO'.

However, don't tell me that something I've done many, many times cannot be done. It's just that YOU can't do it, or come to grips with it. The fact is, I've done it many times, so I know for a fact it can be done, has been done and could be done again, and again, and again.

End of.

 

[ccsleedsltd]

Yes, you pay for a 1 year contract. Calculate the diff between a 5 year EFM and a 1 year EFM with 4 years of FTTC and you'll find option 2 is astronomically cheaper.

Also, you CAN repurpose EFM from year one. It's a fibre connection. You may have to swap NTE's, but it's unlikely. You'll just need a different router config (if you're lucky), or NTE swap then router config. You're making a mountain out of a mole hill - this is easy peasy Openreach day 1 engineering stuff.

Getting worse.
EFM (in the UK at least) is a multi-pair copper service. Not a single millimetre of fibre in sight..

 

[webgeek]

Is what I get for typing short.

EFM = ethernet first mile, typically lower speeds and is fibre to the cab then copper the rest of the route. I used to generically refer to high speed circuits because it's 3 letters instead of three words, though neither should confuse the pedantic engineer in anyone.

GEA = generic ethernet access. It's 35mb/sec++ and is typically provisioned as fibre end to end.

EF = ethernet fibre. It's up to 10gb/sec and is fully fibre end to end, always.

Given it's 100mb requirement, EFM doesn't fit - it's GEA, provisioned as fibre, terminated with an ethernet connection.

I'm done trying to educate the naysayer. I've worked as an installation manager at BT, worked with wholesale, openreach, narrowband and other teams on a daily basis and know that what I've said has happened many, many times.

You can believe someone who hasn't worked at BT, who says nothing works like that and that it's impossible, if you want. By the way, I've heard some great deals on buying the Statue of Liberty, if you're that gullible

 

[visuallyconnected]

I'd advise having a chat with Andy at WaveNet. We use them a lot for our customers - 0121 794 0269

 

[Nathan Hill-Haimes]

An option that you could consider is bonding broadband. It's pretty good if you're in a location where the current infrastructure can't support the speed you need.

 

[Stefanie]

I was just googling this as I need to do something similar as I am 1.4 miles from our local switch and in remote country. There is little hope one of the famers is going to be demanding bandwidth that I can piggy back off ...

Quite bizarrely (as it seems the developer is the previous poster) I came across the AMVIRA comparison tool, which was great because I got the info I needed real time (vs having to email all the supplier in this thread).

Worth looking at ...

 

[Nathan Hill-Haimes]

Thanks Stefanie. Glad you liked it.

 

[Exascale]

If your still struggling to find a independant, friendly national connectivity provider in the UK. Exascale may be the answer. Exascale owns and operates a UK National Network and is not a reseller! Exascale in nearly all circumstances will out price may of the larger ISPs.

At the time of writing this we're able to apply for a £2,500 goverment contribution towards any Gigabit Leased Line. This funding is running out fast!

Why not give us a try? https://www.exascale.co.uk/solutions/networks/leased-lines/#contact