Knowing the mind of God

[DCE]

That is one that we disagree on

Chris it's the biggest scam the churches and other religions have used to put fear into those who they teach, any time they us fire in the context your talking about, it's use in the bible is symbolic for destruction, not a place of fiery torment, it is not a correct teaching its rubbish.

From dust you came and to dust you will return.

The wages of sin is death. when you die you are no longer viewed as a sinner, slates wiped clean Roman 6:7

Its was introduced mainly to be used to frighten people to part with their money, if you don't pay you will go to hell, its a control thing, we will pray for your parents that they go to heaven, it will cost you though.

 

[basic]

Chris it's the biggest scam the churches and other religions have used to put fear into those who they teach, any time they us fire in the context your talking about, it's use in the bible is symbolic for destruction, not a place of fiery torment, it is not a correct teaching its rubbish.

And refusing blood transfusions is?

From dust you came and to dust you will return.

Yes until judgement

The wages of sin is death. when you die you are no longer viewed as a sinner, slates wiped clean Roman 6:7

It would be helpful if you quoted scripture in context
Romans 6:5-8



5For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;
6this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless, for our no longer serving the sin;
7for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin. 8And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him

It is talking about believers metaphorically (apologies if wrong word but you know what I mean) dying with Jesus when we accept him. That is where the expression born again comes from. When we repent and accept Jesus, we bury our old selves and begin a new life in Jesus.

Its was introduced mainly to be used to frighten people to part with their money, if you don't pay you will go to hell, its a control thing, we will pray for your parents that they go to heaven, it will cost you though.

There are people in every religion that twist truths, unfortunately this is one example. Just because there are scrupulous people out there that preach hell for their own gain, does not mean it isn't true

As I am sure you would guess, I am with Hedge on this one. What do you believe the following scripture is about
Revelation 21:7-9



7he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him -- a God, and he shall be to me -- the son,
8and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' 9And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb -- the wife,'

It speaks of a hell to me. But to be honest whether 'a hell of fir' is to be taken literally or not is not important in the scheme of things. Eternal separation from God is torture enough. Being raised from the dead for judgement, finding out that everything you heard was true but you ignored it, to then be told that you (not saying you personally, you as in the general term) cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (or paradise as you put it) because you did not accept Jesus - to me that would hell in itself, let alone anything else that may come with it.

 

[marchog]

As I am sure you would guess, I am with Hedge on this one. What do you believe the following scripture is about
Revelation 21:7-9



7he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him -- a God, and he shall be to me -- the son,
8and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' 9And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb -- the wife,'

It speaks of a hell to me. But to be honest whether 'a hell of fir' is to be taken literally or not is not important in the scheme of things. Eternal separation from God is torture enough. Being raised from the dead for judgement, finding out that everything you heard was true but you ignored it, to then be told that you (not saying you personally, you as in the general term) cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (or paradise as you put it) because you did not accept Jesus - to me that would hell in itself, let alone anything else that may come with it.

Well I am a bit miffed now....basic and hedgehog seem quite happy with my going to hell. I know we haven't met, but still you could try a bit harder to save me. If I thought either of you were in immortal danger and that I had the answer that could prevent this I'd like to think I'd do more....how can you remain sane when you walk down the street knowing every other person you see is going to hell? It would drive me bananas. You're not bananas are you?

 

[Birmingham]

god has no mind, and no mind can be known at no time in no place.

http://peaceandpower.net

 

[DCE]

As I am sure you would guess, I am with Hedge on this one. What do you believe the following scripture is about
Revelation 21:7-9

7he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him -- a God, and he shall be to me -- the son,
8and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part [is] in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.' 9And there came unto me one of the seven messengers, who have the seven vials that are full of the seven last plagues, and he spake with me, saying, `Come, I will shew thee the bride of the Lamb -- the wife,'

It speaks of a hell to me. But to be honest whether 'a hell of fir' is to be taken literally or not is not important in the scheme of things. Eternal separation from God is torture enough. Being raised from the dead for judgement, finding out that everything you heard was true but you ignored it, to then be told that you (not saying you personally, you as in the general term) cannot enter the kingdom of heaven (or paradise as you put it) because you did not accept Jesus - to me that would hell in itself, let alone anything else that may come with it.

Lets start with this lake of fire, what is the lake of fire?

It is also mentioned to at Matthew 25:41

(Matthew 25:41) . . .Then he will say, in turn, to those on his left, 'Be on YOUR way from me, YOU who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels.

Revelation 19:20 (Young's Literal Translation) 20 and the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet who did the signs before him, in which he led astray those who did receive the mark of the beast, and those who did bow before his image; living they were cast -- the two -- to the lake of the fire, that is burning with brimstone;

(Revelation 20:14-15) 14 And death and Ha´des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

(Revelation 20:10) 10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So who or what goes into the lake of fire, among them are mentioned in the above scriptures, so we start with the wild beast and the false prophet.

Death and Hades are put into this lake of fire, also we read that the Devil (and along with him his associate demons) is hurled into the lake of fire after his final attack on God's sovereignty

Since the wild beast and the false prophet are symbolic, the lake of fire is necessarily symbolic.

Further supporting to this conclusion is the fact that the abstract thing, death, is also hurled into the lake of fire, death cannot be literally burned.

Moreover, the demons are thrown into the lake of fire, these angels, are spirit persons, and being spirit, they cannot be hurt by literal fire, which is a physical product of chemical combustion.

We can clearly see what the truth really is, that being put into the lake of fire does not mean conscious pain of torment, it is shown in that the wild beast and the false prophet, both symbolic of systems or organizations, are spoken of as being tormented day and night, but systems or organizations cannot suffer pain, the lake of fire annihilates, and destroys them.

The result is they are restrained from operating, forever, never will such wicked organizations rise up to dominate or disturb mankind.

Also, death and Hades, mankind's common grave, are done away with in the lake of fire, in that Adamic death will have been completely wiped out and Hades will have been emptied and will receive no more such dead, we know these two inanimate things cannot feel or experience conscious suffering, but they can be restrained, put out of the way, forever.

So there is no such place as hell.

So the next question is, what does the second death mean. and when does it take place, what do you think basic?

Also are you a born again Christian?

 

[cjd]

It's all getting to be a scripture-quoting contest in here these days..... where is CJD when you need him?

I went up a mountain to search for God and the truth.

All I got was a sore shoulder when I was hit from behind by a Devil's Apprentice on a snowboard.

Bit disappointed with the amount of pointless biblical nonsense being spouted atm tho' - all it does is prove that even christians don't know what this man made rubbish means.

 

[DCE]

I went up a mountain to search for God and the truth.

All I got was a sore shoulder when I was hit from behind by a Devil's Apprentice on a snowboard.

Bit disappointed with the amount of pointless biblical nonsense being spouted atm tho' - all it does is prove that even christians don't know what this man made rubbish means.

Nice to have you back.

There can only be one truth CJD, you have just got to, look for it.

 

[cjd]

first DONT attribute "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" to me. It is WRONG at every level - and no credible scientist would ever use that expression.

Every claim needs the same examination. Extraordinary is a completely subjective word that sceptics seem to use to "lower the bar of evidence" to NIL for anything they are prejudiced towards (eg the whole of WIKI and anything that science has ever said, however wrong it is) , and raise the bar for evidence that dissents from their ordinary world to the point of ensuring that nothing ever breaches their precious world view.

Blame CJD for that one.

No, blame basic philosophy for that and Carl Sagan for popularising it.

It's simply a way of thinking rationally. It just means that in order to believe in something which is a logical impossibilty eg something that breaks a natural rule that we all live by day to day - such as a statue bleeding - we rationally must have overwhelming evidence.

To believe that a statue can blead without REAL evidence is irrational -self evidently.

 

[cjd]

Nice to have you back.

There can only be one truth CJD.

Bullshit - go read some quantum theory.

 

[basic]

Well I am a bit miffed now....basic and hedgehog seem quite happy with my going to hell. I know we haven't met, but still you could try a bit harder to save me. If I thought either of you were in immortal danger and that I had the answer that could prevent this I'd like to think I'd do more....how can you remain sane when you walk down the street knowing every other person you see is going to hell? It would drive me bananas. You're not bananas are you?

Believe me, I am not happy about it at all - and I would like nothing more for you take seriously the accounts we mention regarding Jesus, through this thread alone you have been exposed to what we believe to be the truth i.e. Jesus Christ. All I can hope is that something within you stirs enough to make you want to find the truth. But don't forget I am human too, not perfect at all, trying to find the right words without coming under condemnation. I don't have all the answers and would never claim I do, I am still asking questions and will be until I die, but one thing I know for sure in my heart is that Jesus is real and the only way to God.
If it helps, this is my testimony (short verson). Sorry it is not very dramatic but changed my life nonetheless.

I was bought up by a Christian Mother & atheist father. We went to Catholic School and Sunday School. Age 11 I chose to accept Jesus and loved him totally, but by 16/17 I lost interest in church and stopped going. I had a mispent youth 18-22 (suppose you could say I rebelled). Funny thing is, even during this time I would find myself having conversations with people in nightclubs who were going through some stuff, feeling down, and I would end up telling them about God and he loved them!!! God was still in my life even though I turned my back on him for a while, and looking back, I see it even more. After reaching a very low point in my early 20's I decided enough was enough and I could not live without Jesus. And from that point my life changed incredibly, slowly but surely. My father incidentally is now a Christian and the most amazing man. (Completely changed from the man who bought me up, thank God) And I appreciate what you say about doing more, making it urgent etc, etc - but unfortunately as you well know, people have been trying to do that for centuries and get branded bible bashers/nut cases etc, so we can't win really.

 

[Gillie]

I will admit I am fed up with reading about Christ and how its 'their' God etc ... one day the Christians on this planet will realise how flamin selfish they all are!!!!!!!!

 

[Subbynet]

Very interesting documentary on Channel 4 right now about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and also the Vatican's suppression of these documents.

 

[basic]

I will admit I am fed up with reading about Christ and how its 'their' God etc ... one day the Christians on this planet will realise how flamin selfish they all are!!!!!!!!

Firstly I would not say Christ is my God. He is the son of God, the same God you believe in as far as I know! I'm sorry to here you are fed up with reading about Christ, you can always skip posts that your fed up with, you don't have to read them all. Personally it doesn't bother me, reading posts about other God's, beliefs, evolution, whatever it may be. It's good to get an understanding of what other people believe and why.

Instead of attacking us, why not just join in. If you believe in the same God as you claim, you must also have an opinion on hell and some of the other topics that have been discussed lately. Come on, give us another point of view.

So - What about you? What is your stance, all I know is you are jewish. But what does that mean for you? Do you have a relationship with God - tell me about 'your' God and the impact it has on your life. Tell me why you get so riled by Christians and no other religious group. Why will Christians realise we are selfish? I am genuinely interested

 

[Gillie]

It means that I have a God I believe in, but that God is also others God and not mine or yours or theirs!!!!!!!

From reading the various posts recently I thought Christians were supposed to be charitable and forgiving etc ... yet every post recently says MY God ... like Christians alone own the rights to him .... And my reply didn't actually say that Christ was your God ... you read it wrong!

I do join in but leave after a while as we are debating about GOD, not your God, but the fact of God etc ... and yet continually I am told that the Christian God does this that and the other .... arrrrggghhh!!

That to me is selfish. Don't you believe that there is only one God?? Therefore leading on from this, that ONE God would therefore be the same one others celebrate without being Christians!!!!!

 

[Subbynet]

It means that I have a God I believe in, but that God is also others God and not mine or yours or theirs!!!!!!!

From reading the various posts recently I thought Christians were supposed to be charitable and forgiving etc ... yet every post recently says MY God ... like Christians alone own the rights to him .... And my reply didn't actually say that Christ was your God ... you read it wrong!

I do join in but leave after a while as we are debating about GOD, not your God, but the fact of God etc ... and yet continually I am told that the Christian God does this that and the other .... arrrrggghhh!!

That to me is selfish. Don't you believe that there is only one God?? Therefore leading on from this, that ONE God would therefore be the same one others celebrate without being Christians!!!!!

To be fair, throughout this thread people have made many references to other Gods, so I don't see the problem with people saying My God. Its like saying My Country, My Birthday etc...

As for one God, for me no. Because even the Ten Commandments says you shall have no other Gods before me - or something like that...

Mind you this doesn't make me believe in God at all, plus I think the Catholic Church is an immoral, corrupt, sexist organisation which should be banished to the stone age. The more I find out about it, the more I dislike.

 

[basic]

Lets start with this lake of fire, what is the lake of fire?

It is also mentioned to at Matthew 25:41

So who or what goes into the lake of fire, among them are mentioned in the above scriptures, so we start with the wild beast and the false prophet.

Death and Hades are put into this lake of fire, also we read that the Devil (and along with him his associate demons) is hurled into the lake of fire after his final attack on God’s sovereignty

Since the wild beast and the false prophet are symbolic, the lake of fire is necessarily symbolic.

Further supporting to this conclusion is the fact that the abstract thing, death, is also hurled into the lake of fire, death cannot be literally burned.

Moreover, the demons are thrown into the lake of fire, these angels, are spirit persons, and being spirit, they cannot be hurt by literal fire, which is a physical product of chemical combustion.

We can clearly see what the truth really is, that being put into the lake of fire does not mean conscious pain of torment, it is shown in that the wild beast and the false prophet, both symbolic of systems or organizations, are spoken of as being tormented day and night, but systems or organizations cannot suffer pain, the lake of fire annihilates, and destroys them.

Precisely - it is clearly biblical that they will be tormented day & night, so if systems & organizations cannot suffer pain, it must be talking about them being thrown in as there fleshly bodies.

The result is they are restrained from operating, forever, never will such wicked organizations rise up to dominate or disturb mankind.

Also, death and Hades, mankind’s common grave, are done away with in the lake of fire, in that Adamic death will have been completely wiped out and Hades will have been emptied and will receive no more such dead, we know these two inanimate things cannot feel or experience conscious suffering, but they can be restrained, put out of the way, forever.

So there is no such place as hell.

Sorry, you have not convinced me. Like I said, where the fire itself is literal or not, hell is still a place of torment in whatever form it comes. Hell is a place of Eternal separation from God - fire or no fire.

So the next question is, what does the second death mean. and when does it take place, what do you think basic?
Hmmm second death. I've read it over & over and I think it means everyone who is still dead spiritually when they die, everyone whose name is not written in the book of life, will be cast into the lake of fire. (Eternal torment) Death means separation between 2 things. In this case - separation between man & God.

The children of God who remain faithful will never experience the second death because the … second death has no power over them.
Rev 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. Those who are victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years

Also are you a born again Christian?

Yes I suppose you might call me a born again Christian. But I don't usually go by that - Christian is just fine

 

[Gillie]

Ok, but the ten commandments were told to a Jewish Boy .... does this then make God Jewish when talking to Moses?? So when does God then change and become the Christian God??

We are taught that there is one God. One God who is there for all religions!

 

[alex4orne]

Being a spiritual Humanist I don't believe in him I am afraid, And as an ordained minister it would be wrong for me to do so, but if that is your belief then that is so, as long as it brings you comfort and solace.

 

[cjd]

I do join in but leave after a while as we are debating about GOD, not your God, but the fact of God etc ... and yet continually I am told that the Christian God does this that and the other .... arrrrggghhh!!

That to me is selfish. Don't you believe that there is only one God?? Therefore leading on from this, that ONE God would therefore be the same one others celebrate without being Christians!!!!!

They don't think about it and do even less proper research on their own religions - they just read the bloody Testaments - and then only the bits they like.

The Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same god, Yahwey - although they need to be reminded of this regularly. The main difference between them is that the Jews still await the Messiah, the Christians believe the Messiah to be good old JC and the Muslims see JC as merely another prophet whilst Mohammad is the real deal. They're all obviously mad.

But that's just the Abrahamic religions - start talkng about other Gods and they get really superior.

 

[Subbynet]

Ok, but the ten commandments were told to a Jewish Boy .... does this then make God Jewish when talking to Moses?? So when does God then change and become the Christian God??

We are taught that there is one God. One God who is there for all religions!

Well, without being an expert in the subject, somewhere along the line I think Jews, Christains and Muslims all have the same "God". The story along the way has obviously changed.

But then you have other religions which can be completely different, sometimes with many gods.

 

[DCE]

It means that I have a God I believe in, but that God is also others God and not mine or yours or theirs!!!!!!!

From reading the various posts recently I thought Christians were supposed to be charitable and forgiving etc ... yet every post recently says MY God ... like Christians alone own the rights to him .... And my reply didn't actually say that Christ was your God ... you read it wrong!

I do join in but leave after a while as we are debating about GOD, not your God, but the fact of God etc ... and yet continually I am told that the Christian God does this that and the other .... arrrrggghhh!!

That to me is selfish. Don't you believe that there is only one God?? Therefore leading on from this, that ONE God would therefore be the same one others celebrate without being Christians!!!!!

Gillie are you saying than different religions are simply different roads leading to the same goal. After all, as you say here is only one God, that sentiment is shared by many who feel that although religious affiliation is important, it does not really matter which religion one chooses to follow.

I suppose at first glance, this argument may seem plausible, since it is true that there is only one God, the Almighty, but we cannot overlook the obvious differences, even contradictions among the many religious groups who claim to serve the true God.

They differ greatly in their practices, their beliefs, their teachings, and their requirements, in fact the differences are so great that those belonging to one religion or group find it difficult to understand or accept what the others teach or believe.

On the other hand, Jesus said: God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth, so does worshiping God with truth allow for a range of contradictory ideas about who God is, what his purposes are, and how he wants to be worshiped?

Is it logical to believe that it is immaterial to Almighty God how we worship him then?

I hope you don't mind me asking are you Orthodox Jew, a Reformed Jew or a Conservative Jew?

It would be interesting to hear your answers.

 

[Gillie]

Oh if I was to get shirty with you 'Christians' I would tell you to go away and leave MY God be as after all, we are one of the oldest faiths around and you christians were merely a cult factor that us Jews decided were too radical for us.... but I have been taught to respect all peoples beliefs, whether its to believe in God or not.

We all have a right to our opinions, its what makes us all individuals, but for some reason, there is a whole group of people out there who believe theirs is the one true God and he can't possibly belong to other thoughts on this!

I was brought up an Orthodox Jew actually but now I merely classify myself as Jew! Yes, I still celebrate and still go to temple when I can and have my youngest studying for his barmitzvah in two months time, but I am also a realist and whilst wishing to show my brats the best things I can, I do not narrow their minds, rather I open them up.

My near 16 year old son is having problems at the moment. In science at school he is studying evolution and thinks that yes its right, but also still believes in God, and is having problems trying to reconcile the two.

 

[basic]

It means that I have a God I believe in, but that God is also others God and not mine or yours or theirs!!!!!!!

But what does believing in God mean for you. Do you have opinions on how God wishes to be followed and worshipped. What do think he meant by 'you shall have no other Gods but me'?:|
From reading the various posts recently I thought Christians were supposed to be charitable and forgiving etc ...

yet every post recently says MY God ...

must admit I don't remember reading any posts like that (suppose I'm not looking for it)

like Christians alone own the rights to him ....

Nobody owns rights to God

And my reply didn't actually say that Christ was your God ... you read it wrong!

Apologies for reading it wrong :redface:- what is it you were trying to say

I do join in but leave after a while as we are debating about GOD, not your God, but the fact of God etc ... and yet continually I am told that the Christian God does this that and the other .... arrrrggghhh!!

I am surprised, none of the posts have come across like that to me. All I see is JW, Christians and others joining in a discussion, I don't think anyone has used the term Christian God unless it was in answer to a question. Really sorry if it doesn't come accross that way to you, it is not intentional

That to me is selfish. Don't you believe that there is only one God??

Not entirely - what about Nordic, Zeus, pagan gods, Satan (yes some people worship satan as their God) and Hindus with their multiplicity of deities. You would not say these are all the same God we worship would you? Therefore leading on from this, that ONE God would therefore be the same one others celebrate without being Christians!!!!!

Yes it would for most religions, I do not deny we worship the same God, but for me there is much more to it then just believing in the same God.

 

[Gillie]

But Basic, this whole debate is about God and is there one, not is there a God and tell us how you Christians claim him, and yes if you stepped outside of your views, you would read, as pointed out by CJD that there is a constant assumption on this thread recently, that its the Christians who lay claim to God!

 

[basic]

Ok, but the ten commandments were told to a Jewish Boy .... does this then make God Jewish when talking to Moses?? So when does God then change and become the Christian God??

We are taught that there is one God. One God who is there for all religions!

God is neither Jewish, Christian, Muslim. God is God. The fact he gave the the ten commandments to moses does not make God Jewish. Although Israel/Jews are his chosen people, he extended his love to all through Jesus. This was prophesied in the old testament
Isaiah 49:5-7


5 And now the Lord speaks—
the one who formed me in my mother’s womb to be his servant,
who commissioned me to bring Israel back to him.
The Lord has honored me,
and my God has given me strength.
6 He says, “You will do more than restore the people of Israel to me.
I will make you a light to the Gentiles,
and you will bring my salvation to the ends of the earth.”

God sent Jesus (Messiah) in fulfillment of old testament prophecies. I see Christianity as a continuation of Jewish believes from day dot. It began with those who accepted Jesus as messiah and consisted of Jewish believers who took the message to the Gentiles.

 

[basic]

Being a spiritual Humanist I don't believe in him I am afraid, And as an ordained minister it would be wrong for me to do so, but if that is your belief then that is so, as long as it brings you comfort and solace.

Thank you! By the way, what is a spiritual humanist.

 

[DCE]

But Basic, this whole debate is about God and is there one, not is there a God and tell us how you Christians claim him, and yes if you stepped outside of your views, you would read, as pointed out by CJD that there is a constant assumption on this thread recently, that its the Christians who lay claim to God!

That is a very interesting angle to the debate Gillie, it seems to imply, that it is really up to almighty God, to to make the decision on who is acceptable to him, rather than Christians laying claim, that he favours them more, than another group of a different faith i.e the Jewish faith or Islam as an example.

 

[basic]

But Basic, this whole debate is about God and is there one, not is there a God and tell us how you Christians claim him, and yes if you stepped outside of your views, you would read, as pointed out by CJD that there is a constant assumption on this thread recently, that its the Christians who lay claim to God!

I absolutely totally disagree. I have never told you how 'I claim him'. I obviously have missed the posts you talk about or have read them differently -please can you cut and paste an example of a culprit post so that I can understand what you are referring to once and for all. Thank you.

 

[Gillie]

Basic, you constantly quote that God sent Jesus to save us all ... thus implying him to be your God as I don't belive that Jesus is the messiah! And as this debate is about God, NOT Jesus ... can if at all possible you stick to that??


And DCE above states that God favours one religion more than others!!!

He DOESNT!!!!!!

Why do I get the feeling that my constant asking for this debate to be about God and not Jesus, is not being understood??

The thread is called knowing the mind of GOD, not Jesus!! Therefore we are debating about if he exists or not and if he doesnt, what and how we are here on this planet!

To constantly refer to JC and how God is wonderful to those that believe in him ... and no I aint going to cut and paste, its been said for pages and pages ... go read them ... is small minded and not furthering the debate, but is also exclusive!

 

[alex4orne]

Thank you! By the way, what is a spiritual humanist.

Difficult to explain so I have cut and paste this for yo guys to read.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]A religion based on the ability of human beings to solve the problems of society using logic and science. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Most people need a religion to help guide them through life's challenges and difficult moral decisions. Recognizing how the power of religious rituals, methods, and communication can impact human behavior, Spiritual Humanism fuses traditional religious behaviors onto the foundation of scientific humanist inquiry.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]While it is impossible to remove age old traditions from human culture, we can redirect them by redefining their underlying significance and meanings. Spiritual Humanism is natural, not supernatural. By using a method of scientific inquiry we can define the inspirational, singular spark inherent in all living creatures[/FONT]

Hope this helps a bit

Please note I have not posted this on here to offend anyone

 

[Hedgie]

Ok, but the ten commandments were told to a Jewish Boy .... does this then make God Jewish when talking to Moses?? So when does God then change and become the Christian God??

We are taught that there is one God. One God who is there for all religions!

Come on Gillie The term 'Christian' was given to followers of Christ and it just stuck through the centuries. God doesn't change for Jews or gentiles

 

[Hedgie]

We are taught that there is one God. One God who is there for all religions!

Not correct. if that was the case then how come 'other religions' have totally contradicting standards. That is effectivley saying yuo can do what the heck you like cos God doesn't give a hoot.

 

[Hedgie]

Being a spiritual Humanist I don't believe in him I am afraid, And as an ordained minister it would be wrong for me to do so, but if that is your belief then that is so, as long as it brings you comfort and solace.

Oh dear !!!!!

 

[Hedgie]

They don't think about it and do even less proper research on their own religions - they just read the bloody Testaments - and then only the bits they like.

The Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same god, Yahwey - although they need to be reminded of this regularly. The main difference between them is that the Jews still await the Messiah, the Christians believe the Messiah to be good old JC and the Muslims see JC as merely another prophet whilst Mohammad is the real deal. They're all obviously mad.

But that's just the Abrahamic religions - start talkng about other Gods and they get really superior.

Ermmm nope we don't all believe in the same God. The Jews and Christians do but the Mulsims don't believe Jesus was the messiah.

 

[alex4orne]

Oh dear !!!!!

Lost by that sorry

 

[Hedgie]

Gillie are you saying than different religions are simply different roads leading to the same goal. After all, as you say here is only one God, that sentiment is shared by many who feel that although religious affiliation is important, it does not really matter which religion one chooses to follow.

I suppose at first glance, this argument may seem plausible, since it is true that there is only one God, the Almighty, but we cannot overlook the obvious differences, even contradictions among the many religious groups who claim to serve the true God.

They differ greatly in their practices, their beliefs, their teachings, and their requirements, in fact the differences are so great that those belonging to one religion or group find it difficult to understand or accept what the others teach or believe.

On the other hand, Jesus said: God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth, so does worshiping God with truth allow for a range of contradictory ideas about who God is, what his purposes are, and how he wants to be worshiped?

Is it logical to believe that it is immaterial to Almighty God how we worship him then?

I hope you don’t mind me asking are you Orthodox Jew, a Reformed Jew or a Conservative Jew?

It would be interesting to hear your answers.

I have to say the key issue here is Truth.....what is truth.

 

[Hedgie]

Oh if I was to get shirty with you 'Christians' I would tell you to go away and leave MY God be as after all, we are one of the oldest faiths around and you christians were merely a cult factor that us Jews decided were too radical for us.... but I have been taught to respect all peoples beliefs, whether its to believe in God or not.

We all have a right to our opinions, its what makes us all individuals, but for some reason, there is a whole group of people out there who believe theirs is the one true God and he can't possibly belong to other thoughts on this!

I was brought up an Orthodox Jew actually but now I merely classify myself as Jew! Yes, I still celebrate and still go to temple when I can and have my youngest studying for his barmitzvah in two months time, but I am also a realist and whilst wishing to show my brats the best things I can, I do not narrow their minds, rather I open them up.

My near 16 year old son is having problems at the moment. In science at school he is studying evolution and thinks that yes its right, but also still believes in God, and is having problems trying to reconcile the two.

I have the greatest respect for the Jewish faith, after all they are Gods chosen people

 

[Gillie]

Hedgie ... I am saying that as a Jew, I am taught there is only one God ... sorry if you aint ... your religions shortfall!

And Muslims do believe in the same God as the Jews, however, I am wondering if you Christians think differently??

You see, the more I read the more convinced I am that Christians really do believe all the hype, that they are the one true religion with the one true God and that the rest of us are not quite acceptable!!

Cos it most certainly reads that way above!!

 

[Hedgie]

Thank you! By the way, what is a spiritual humanist.

You can go onto a website and buy yourself a ministry !!!!

 

[DCE]

Basic, you constantly quote that God sent Jesus to save us all ... thus implying him to be your God as I don't belive that Jesus is the messiah! And as this debate is about God, NOT Jesus ... can if at all possible you stick to that??

As we saw from the Dead Sea Scrolls programme tonight, Judaism teaches that while God’s name exists in written form, it is too holy to be pronounced the result has been that, over the last 2,000 years, the correct pronunciation has been lost, as you will know, I'm am talking about the "Tetragrammaton" how would you Gillie pronounce it today?

Or is it still to holy to pronouce?

It would stop a lot of confusion as the trinity is not a Jewish teaching I believe?