Knowing the mind of God

[Hedgie]

Yes, we had to read and study large amounts of the bible at school.

I know that some people do find comfort in reading the bible, and that they believe it gives them the rules to live their lives by. I am not saying you shouldn't read the bible, but that it is only a collection of the writings of various men from around 100AD and before. It is the idea that believers can claim that some writings of men are "the word of God" which I find so ridiculous to swallow.

There are plenty of contemporary writings of our own time that are more relevant to life in the 21st century. On the same basis I think that Plato is interesting to read, but I wouldn't regard his ideas as being more relevant to me than recent philosophical works.

The Bible is written as the 'inspired word of God' this is to say it has been given to the writers by Gods intervention and not just men writing what they feel like. It is interesting to note that some of the books are written many years apart and by different writers yet have the same content and theme.

 

[Subbynet]

The Bible was written over a period 1610 years and if you read the whole of the Bible, you would see there is one common thread through it all, which would be impossible to have if it was not inspired by God.

Inspired by a God it certainly is. But, you can't claim anything, the Christians, Jews, Muslims, JWs, Mormons, Quakers and many more all have a different take on it. All adding, removing, or changing parts they like, dislike or want, over the course of years in history. All this from one branch.

If you look at the complete list of religions, it becomes more laughable by the minute to say anyone can claim to be right.

And the major religions below.

Also if you had written a, book thousands of years ago, would it still be around today, I doubt it, so who do you think has ensured that.

The people did - much like the Magna Carta is 793 years old, I fully expect it to reach the grand old age of 1000 and beyond as the text which started democracy in the world because we as people see it to be a turning point in history.

The Bible it now is available to 97% of the world population, just a book written by men you say.

If it was from God, it would be available to 100%. (Not that "availability" means anything!) God wouldn't leave anyone out. After all he made statues cry blood, bodies stay composed for years after death, burning bushes, feeding the 5,000 and all that, but dare I say couldn't magic up a bible for those living off the beaten track - yeah right!

I also don't believe God would need to have his teachings in text. This is the man who "created" us, who many believe speaks to them, yet he speaks to none.

If God exists, allow people to question him, ask why he does not intervene in the world and create the utopia we all want. Ask why children should die. Ask why man isn't perfect. Why did God create us? As a play-thing? As a test of his creation abilities? Is that the type of God you worship?

Religion is just politics.

 

[DCE]

If God exists, allow people to question him, ask why he does not intervene in the world and create the utopia we all want. Ask why children should die. Ask why man isn't perfect. Why did God create us? As a play-thing? As a test of his creation abilities? Is that the type of God you worship?

Religion is just politics.

Subbynet the answers to all your question's are in the Bible.

 

[abovezero]

I'm not sure that the chart can be considered accurate, with its indication that 85.7% of the world's population adheres to one religion or another. There is probably no reliable source for such data, and we all know that many people claim to follow a religion and do no more than pay lip service to it.

I have met Jews who eat pork and Muslims who drink alcohol, so what is it that they are referring to when claiming to be a Jew or a Muslim? I would say that it is a minority of "Christians" in the UK who actually practice their faith, and of the rest it is debatable as to what extent they really are believers. It is my opinion that the majority of people who claim they are religious have merely been indoctrinated with those ideas by their parents or at school, rather than made any conscious decision to follow that faith.

 

[marchog]

How do you get from that scripture, that there can be no moral objection to humane killing of religious people. Killing is killing, murder is murder however pretty you wrap it up. And as for whether I am getting in, getting in where?

from scripture I get that they'll be in paradise. If I blow up the world only I will suffer, it's the ultimate act of self-sacrifice!

 

[marchog]

We all deserve to be chucked into hell for our outright rebellion towards God, however Jesus created the 'escape' route for those who are willing to accept who God is. Although I must add that just acknowledging him is not the end of it, we must live our lives as best we can in keeping with his word.

This is the area many of the mainstream 'religions' fall down. People attend church on sunday and for an hour or so they become all holier than thou and then return to their normal lifestyle of disobedience only to return to church next sunday. That is not the way to lead the christian lifestyle.

So when I blow up the world all the mainstream believers aren't getting in to heaven? I wish you'd told me sooner...

 

[Hedgie]

I'm not sure that the chart can be considered accurate, with its indication that 85.7% of the world's population adheres to one religion or another. There is probably no reliable source for such data, and we all know that many people claim to follow a religion and do no more than pay lip service to it.

I have met Jews who eat pork and Muslims who drink alcohol, so what is it that they are referring to when claiming to be a Jew or a Muslim? I would say that it is a minority of "Christians" in the UK who actually practice their faith, and of the rest it is debatable as to what extent they really are believers. It is my opinion that the majority of people who claim they are religious have merely been indoctrinated with those ideas by their parents or at school, rather than made any conscious decision to follow that faith.

I practice my christian faith daily. I am fully committed to what I believe whcihc is why I defend my faith so heavily. Just as people will defend their right to smoke, drink, party etc, then so I defend my christian beliefs.

The problem with all the other religions is that Jesus is the only one who came bodily to earth and died for us ....no other religion can claim that.

 

[Hedgie]

So when I blow up the world all the mainstream believers aren't getting in to heaven? I wish you'd told me sooner...

Not entirely correct, there are a lot of 'saved' christian believers who attend various mainstream churches (mainly C of E and Methodist) who would 'qualify' for heaven

 

[Subbynet]

Subbynet the answers to all your question's are in the Bible.

The Bible was wrote by man, it gives the interpretation from men not God.

 

[Hedgie]

The Bible was wrote by man, it gives the interpretation from men not God.

I wouldn't say it was an interpretation. Many of the things documented in the Bible are historical accounts.

 

[abovezero]

I practice my christian faith daily. I am fully committed to what I believe whcihc is why I defend my faith so heavily. Just as people will defend their right to smoke, drink, party etc, then so I defend my christian beliefs.

The problem with all the other religions is that Jesus is the only one who came bodily to earth and died for us ....no other religion can claim that.

I see nothing wrong with you having strong faith and defending it wherever you wish.

It is my opinion that it is a minority of fundamentalists who promote most of the world's religions, and that most of the rest - who claim that belief - are not particularly strong in their faith. You see the same thing in politics, where it is only a small number of people who drive the group, the party, etc, and the rest of the herd are the followers.

I always thought that Christianity required an individual to have a personal and considered view about Jesus Christ, and I am sure you are one of those who has thought out your position. As for the rest, I think most of them are simply "fellow-travellers".

 

[Subbynet]

I wouldn't say it was an interpretation. Many of the things documented in the Bible are historical accounts.

Historical accounts (that alone is open for debate!) which other religions dispute - hence I say its interpretation.

 

[Subbynet]

I'm not sure that the chart can be considered accurate, with its indication that 85.7% of the world's population adheres to one religion or another. There is probably no reliable source for such data, and we all know that many people claim to follow a religion and do no more than pay lip service to it.

I have met Jews who eat pork and Muslims who drink alcohol, so what is it that they are referring to when claiming to be a Jew or a Muslim? I would say that it is a minority of "Christians" in the UK who actually practice their faith, and of the rest it is debatable as to what extent they really are believers. It is my opinion that the majority of people who claim they are religious have merely been indoctrinated with those ideas by their parents or at school, rather than made any conscious decision to follow that faith.

I'm with you on that, I don't think the numbers are correct - but it does show the number of different religions being practiced to some degree. (And hence - they can't all be right)

The most recent UK census showed 15.5% of the population adhered to no religion (7.9% gave no indication of any religion or even believing in it), and that 390,000 people claimed to be Jedi Knight, making Jedi the forth largest "religion" in the UK.

Also, you can find information which says 65% of the UK does not believe in God, yet call themselves Christians for traditional reasons. This I would say supports the decline in the number of British people attending church. (But who attend Christenings, Weddings and Funerals.)

Further, the number of people joining the church as a Priest, Nun or Monk and whatever else is dropping sharply. Losing nearly 10% between 05/06 alone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7227629.stm

The next subject I'd like to see debated is Church finances, and the lack of transparency. The Roman Catholic church has Billions stashed away, and a very murky past concerning where these monies originated, and where the money is going too. I believe following the money is important.

 

[basic]

from scripture I get that they'll be in paradise. If I blow up the world only I will suffer, it's the ultimate act of self-sacrifice!

You are so strange, such a warped view on things - its almost as if you are looking for a reasonable excuse to go kill everybody - a bit worrying to be honest

 

[DCE]

The Bible was wrote by man, it gives the interpretation from men not God.

In your business if you dictated a letter to your secretary and she wrote it down, who wrote the letter your secretary or the one that dictated it.

God dictated what was to be written down and men under the guidence of Holy Spirit wrote the books of the Bible.

Example

(Daniel

12:8-9) 8 Now as for me, I heard, but I could not understand; so that I said: "O my lord, what will be the final part of these things?" 9 And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end.​

So these words of a prophecy that had been written, would be made secret until the time of the end, and would only be understood, what they really meant and referred too during the end times, this would be obvious to those having insight into the bible prophesy, and they would see these things that was to take place happening in front of their very eyes .​

You have to remember the Jews in Jesus time, didn't reconize the Messiah, although they new he was to arrive at around the time he did, some did, but other chose not too, infact they helped having him put to death.

Get the picture Subbynet.​

 

[Top Hat]

Where is cjd, I hope he hasn't been struck down by a cruel and vengeful god

 

[Top Hat]

I wouldn't say it was an interpretation. Many of the things documented in the Bible are historical accounts.

Can we talk about how ridiculous Noah's ark is again?

 

[basic]

Where is cjd, I hope he hasn't been struck down by a cruel and vengeful god

He has been absent a while - do hope he's ok. Steve too for that matter - in fact I think they both disappeared about the same time. :|

 

[DCE]

Can we talk about how ridiculous Noah's ark is again?

You and I would not be around today if it was not for Noah so count your blessings I do.

 

[DCE]

He has been absent a while - do hope he's ok. Steve too for that matter - in fact I think they both disappeared about the same time. :|

They have made up, and gone on holiday together.

 

[Subbynet]

In your business if you dictated a letter to your secretary and she wrote it down, who wrote the letter your secretary or the one that dictated it.

God dictated what was to be written down and men under the guidence of Holy Spirit wrote the books of the Bible.

Example

So these words of a prophecy that had been written, would be made secret until the time of the end, and would only be understood, what they really meant and referred too during the end times, this would be obvious to those having insight into the bible prophesy, and they would see these things that was to take place happening in front of their very eyes .​

You have to remember the Jews in Jesus time, didn't reconize the Messiah, although they new he was to arrive at around the time he did, some did, but other chose not too, infact they helped having him put to death.

Get the picture Subbynet.​

No I don't DCE...

Throughout this thread proof has been given in the forms of Bible Codes, Mathematical oddities, the image of Guadalupe, Lanciano, the Shroud of Turin, The Incorruptibles and many many more...

And yet, God with all his power, the creator of man, the animals, the trees and the mountains, the creator of the universe - cannot cunjure up a book. He must though man dictate his word to be preached.

Kimmrunner on more than one occasion in this thread said "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence"... I put to you, no evidence exists.

Can you see the problem?

 

[DCE]

No I don't DCE...

Throughout this thread proof has been given in the forms of Bible Codes, Mathematical oddities, the image of Guadalupe, Lanciano, the Shroud of Turin, The Incorruptibles and many many more...

And yet, God with all his power, the creator of man, the animals, the trees and the mountains, the creator of the universe - cannot cunjure up a book. He must though man dictate his word to be preached.

Kimmrunner on more than one occasion in this thread said "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence"... I put to you, no evidence exists.

Can you see the problem?

Subbynet what sort of book do you think it should be then, please explain, give us an idea of what sort of book you would believe in, would it have to beable to fly for instance.

 

No I don't DCE...

Throughout this thread proof has been given in the forms of Bible Codes, Mathematical oddities, the image of Guadalupe, Lanciano, the Shroud of Turin, The Incorruptibles and many many more...

And yet, God with all his power, the creator of man, the animals, the trees and the mountains, the creator of the universe - cannot cunjure up a book. He must though man dictate his word to be preached.

Kimmrunner on more than one occasion in this thread said "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence"... I put to you, no evidence exists.

Can you see the problem?

Two things...
first DONT attribute "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" to me. It is WRONG at every level - and no credible scientist would ever use that expression.

Every claim needs the same examination. Extraordinary is a completely subjective word that sceptics seem to use to "lower the bar of evidence" to NIL for anything they are prejudiced towards (eg the whole of WIKI and anything that science has ever said, however wrong it is) , and raise the bar for evidence that dissents from their ordinary world to the point of ensuring that nothing ever breaches their precious world view.

Blame CJD for that one.


Second..a book.

He did actually....they are called the 12 commandments written in stone, go read the story!


And finally,

This is where protestants from luther onwards get it wrong. Scripture itself does not CLAIM to be the sole revelation, nor is it (sola scriptura) as protestants would have you believe. St Paul says listen to the message passed orally, and indeed the pillar and foundation of truth is NOT the bible ( even according to the bible!!) it is the church!!!

 

[abovezero]

Subbynet what sort of book do you think it should be then, please explain, give us an idea of what sort of book you would believe in, would it have to beable to fly for instance.

I think, if this God, which created the universe, has so much power and control over everything, then it should be relatively easy to do something like the 10 commandments again.

Challenge God to send laser beams out of the sky, and etch in each language of the world a message from God onto some rock, or the side of a building. It could even be done at night while nobody is watching - because man is not meant to witness miracles actually happening; God does things in mysterious ways.

Such a message would convert millions in hours. However, I think believers will dismiss such a straightforward sign, because they know (through their own contact with God) that God doesn't go in for that type of thing, and that the only way to convince the non-believer is through arguments with other people.

 

[abovezero]

....they are called the 12 commandments written in stone, go read the story!

Sorry? I just wrote the "10 Commandments" in my last post. Are there 2 more, or is that the effects of inflation over the years?

 

[Subbynet]

Subbynet what sort of book do you think it should be then, please explain, give us an idea of what sort of book you would believe in, would it have to beable to fly for instance.

You can't explain it can you? (Hence the silly comment about flying)

The miracles which are put forward as evidence does not match the requirement of man to write a book for God.

Now you ask which book I think it should be? Well, I've already said throughout this thread that I don't believe the word of God needs putting in text.

 

[DCE]

You can't explain it can you? (Hence the silly comment about flying)

The miracles which are put forward as evidence does not match the requirement of man to write a book for God.

Now you ask which book I think it should be? Well, I've already said throughout this thread that I don't believe the word of God needs putting in text.

What should it be put into then?

 

[Subbynet]

Two things...
first DONT attribute "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" to me. It is WRONG at every level - and no credible scientist would ever use that expression.

Every claim needs the same examination. Extraordinary is a completely subjective word that sceptics seem to use to "lower the bar of evidence" to NIL for anything they are prejudiced towards (eg the whole of WIKI and anything that science has ever said, however wrong it is) , and raise the bar for evidence that dissents from their ordinary world to the point of ensuring that nothing ever breaches their precious world view.

Blame CJD for that one.


Second..a book.

He did actually....they are called the 12 commandments written in stone, go read the story!


And finally,

This is where protestants from luther onwards get it wrong. Scripture itself does not CLAIM to be the sole revelation, nor is it (sola scriptura) as protestants would have you believe. St Paul says listen to the message passed orally, and indeed the pillar and foundation of truth is NOT the bible ( even according to the bible!!) it is the church!!!

lol Kimmrunner I bet you shout at traffic a lot...

The tablets you speak of.... They broke, and God told Moses to make another... The stone now not with us? How apt!

I like this line - "You shall have no other gods before me" So is that God admitting other Gods exist? :redface:

 

[DCE]

lol Kimmrunner I bet you shout at traffic a lot...

The tablets you speak of.... They broke, and God told Moses to make another... The stone now not with us? How apt!

I like this line - "You shall have no other gods before me" So is that God admitting other Gods exist? :redface:

Yes False God's also Satan is the God of this system.

 

[marchog]

You are so strange, such a warped view on things - its almost as if you are looking for a reasonable excuse to go kill everybody - a bit worrying to be honest

Don't worry! I've changed my mind after looking at subby's pie chart it looks as if whoever's right, the vast majority is wrong and most people won't be getting through the pearly gates. I was just pointing out that if I believed in heaven, and someone did me in, I could hardly be miffed - unless it's not all it's cracked up to be......if my granddad's there he owes me 20 years worth of birthday presents for a start

 

[ken_uk]

Two things...
first DONT attribute "Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence" to me. It is WRONG at every level - and no credible scientist would ever use that expression.

Whats this about then?

Dont give me that cr*p CJD

Im talking about the obvious......


One partner is a genetic freak has 25 or 24 + 2 halves chromosomes which unravel

The other partner only has 24

The things join pack up , and in the bizzarre game of musical chairs, someone is left without a chair!!! So how the h*ll do you expect the unmatched chromosome ever to appear in offspring???

Seriois problem, to which as yet you not only have no answer, neither do you have any tangible evidence for it occurring in the world at present in animals.

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence and there is none for how or whether this occurs.


The fact that many bodies lie incorruptible for hundreds of years in defiance of all the natural laws - is proven in comparison

emphasis added by me.

Looks like you did say it?

 

[marchog]

Looks like you did say it?

cjd said it first. I think I remember some Dawkins character saying it in one of his books....quoting someone else I think. How are you doing ken? up for explaining Time yet?

 

[ken_uk]

not yet, when I figure it out fully I will

Mind is wrecked at the moment, never mind knowing the mind of god, I have to figure out the mind of GODaddy support - my VPS needs moving to a new server.

To be honest, this thread is something I can only take in small doses, it really challenges the old head

 

[Subbynet]

What should it be put into then?

Nothing other but your conscience... If you look to your conscience to find the answer, you'll find it. (Right or wrong) Maybe its God who guides you, but whatever, people tend to do the right thing in the end - it just depends how deep you search.

Best of all, its you who decides, not someone else based on their interpretation of how things should be done.

Yes False God's also Satan is the God of this system.

Ah false Gods... Of course. Which leads me to say, if God didn't create Satan, who did? And if he did create Satan - why did he?

Its the chicken and egg problem of God. If other Gods exist, he can't be the master creator.

 

[marchog]

Not entirely correct, there are a lot of 'saved' christian believers who attend various mainstream churches (mainly C of E and Methodist) who would 'qualify' for heaven

Aren't you saying 80% of the world is going to hell? What do you think when you answer my posts knowing I'm going to spend eternity in the fires of hell? Is it a reasonable punishment? I could just be a bit thick, or not have met the right people.

 

[DCE]

Ah false Gods... Of course. Which leads me to say, if God didn't create Satan, who did? And if he did create Satan - why did he?

At first, he was a perfect angel in heaven with God , he later thought too much of himself and wanted the worship that rightly belonged to God.

He spoke to Eve by means of a snake just as a ventriloquist would through a dummy, told her lies, he got her to disobey God, thus Satan attacked God's sovereignty or position as the Most High, he had questioned whether God had the right to rule over the best interests of his subjects.

Satan also brought into question would any human remain loyal to God, so by doing this, he had become an enemy of God.

He was also successful in persuading some of the other angels to join him in rebellion against God.

These became demons, his spirit accomplices.

The Bible speaks of them when it urges Christians: "Stand firm against the machinations of the Devil; because we have a wrestling, not against blood and flesh, but against the world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places.

An issue transpired that had to be settled.

 

[DCE]

Aren't you saying 80% of the world is going to hell? What do you think when you answer my posts knowing I'm going to spend eternity in the fires of hell? Is it a reasonable punishment? I could just be a bit thick, or not have met the right people.

No such place as HELL marchhog, don't worry about it is a lie.

In the Hebrew Scriptures of the Bible the word "hell" is translated from the Hebrew word sheol. It occurs 65 times and in the Authorized King James version Bible is translated 31 times "hell," 31 times "grave," and 3 times "pit." In the Greek Scriptures of that Bible version the word "hell" is translated from the Greek word Hades in all of its ten occurrences. Both sheol and hades mean the common grave of mankind, and never relate to pain or fiery torment.

 

[Top Hat]

Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence

it was Carl Sagan who said that

 

[Hedgie]

No such place as HELL marchhog, don't worry about it is a lie.

That is one that we disagree on

 

Whats this about then?



emphasis added by me.

Looks like you did say it?

That was me using CJD's arguments against him.

I have argued every single time he has used that expression, which I profoundly disagree with, and I am sure CJD is happy to claim it as one that he brought onto this forum, not me!