Justification for Meetings with Clients - Do You?

[JohnnyCash]

SEO
email marketing campaigning (regular monthly newsletters formatted and sent and maintaining anti-spam compliance)
a fee of say 1/10th ongoing for updating and keeping the site clean.
A report of usage.
Running an ebay shop or them.

seo - almost no chance of getting them to pay for this if they are paying £300 for a site.

updating/keeping site clean - very little chance again, imo.

Report of usage - snowballs chance in hell when Analytics is free.

Ebay Shop - unlikely, but worth a try. I doubt they would be willing to pay enough to make it worth the designers time.

 

[bdw]

anyway I thought you were always busy and didn't need the work

I didn't say that :| and what on earth has has that got to do with the topic? :|

Perhaps I did say this in another thread a while back when offering some advice to someone. I sometimes make this clear when responding to questions so that those asking them are clear that my answer is not influenced by a need to impress them in effort to get work from them.

But the topic is not about how I value myself or how busy I am. It was just a question about how others deal with this situation. Did I say something to invite these sarky and superior comments? :|

If so please explain where I did so and I will apologise.

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[estwig]

I didn't say that :| and what on earth has has that got to do with the topic? :|

Perhaps I did say this in another thread a while back when offering some advice to someone. I sometimes make this clear when responding to questions so that those asking them are clear that my answer is not influenced by a need to impress them in effort to get work from them.

But the topic is not about how I value myself or how busy I am. It was just a question about how others deal with this situation. Did I say something to invite these sarky and superior comments? :|

If so please explain where I did so and I will apologise.

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You so get your knickers in a twist at times!!

 

[Matt1959]

I didn't say that :| and what on earth has has that got to do with the topic? :|

Perhaps I did say this in another thread a while back when offering some

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well yes you have said this a few times so I thought maybe theres a problem here that doesnt exist as if you are busy it makes no difference that a few clients will not use you due to you not doing meetings. However obviously I'm wrong and I do apologise and it seems you do need these orders - I would still say due to the value of the orders you can easily say at the outset you don't do site visits - its either that or charge for them:|

That said, if my kids needed feeding and I didnt have any work, I would do the meetings but would do them "out of productive hours" so it "dosnt cost you anything" I know, I know time is money whenever but this is the way I work - I do all this stuff evenings/ weekends and am happy that this is the compromise I must make to gain work in a recession...

 

[bdw]

You so get your knickers in a twist at times!!

Sorry, perhaps I do but I am old now and less tolerant to uninvited sarcasm than I used to be. It's just that I get pissed off in here when people try to turn totally innocent threads into something they are not (and I have had a few beers). :redface:

 

[bdw]

However obviously I'm wrong and I do apologise and it seems you do need these orders

It may seem like it to you but actually I don't need these orders. It was only a silly wee general question. It has nothing to do with what I need or what I don't need so why suggest otherwise?

Actually at my age and financially secure state I could stop doing this tomorrow but some of us actually like what we do and some of us just like to keep busy. Is that OK with you? But if you feel that I am in need of some extra cash send donations to the address on my website and I will donate it to my favourite charity for old and infirm web designers.

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[Matt1959]

well theres nothing I can say now which will be taken the right way apart from to say good luck with solving your problem

 

[maxine]

Great discussion

I think you are right to take the approach that you have but I think when people want to meet it's because there is some risk to them so I think it helps if you can explain how you cover that risk without meetings.

I have a no-meeting policy and stick to it. Some clients have given me a very hard time about that (so have staff) and I have walked away from work because of my attitude to meetings. The view I take is that it is purely and simply a financial decision on my part and tough luck

People have the option of paying for my time at a fixed rate plus travel and some do take it up (although I wish they wouldn't lol). Those that do tend to be those that need to make decisions by committee and generally end up being a pain to deal with anyway Don't you find that meetings breed meetings?

I do a one day telemarketing trial for £150 which includes data for 200 targeted prospects, 150 call attempts, html designed bulk email and it's my most popular package. Sometimes I get people asking to meet and I very nicely explain it is totally out of the question as it's a low cost and low risk package. A good solution is a skype meeting

I would certainly not advertise it on website though as it's only the minority that it applies to so not relevant to around 95% otherwise

 

[bdw]

I would certainly not advertise it on website though as it's only the minority that it applies to so not relevant to around 95% otherwise

Yes, thank you. That's the point I was making earlier. It could be perceived as a negative by people many of whom it would not apply to anyway.

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[bdw]

Just to clarify things, the original question was just ...

Am I being unreasonable? Does this happen to you and how do you deal with it when it does?

That was all I asked. I just wanted to hear how others deal with this.

• I am not in financial trouble.
• There is no need to conclude from this that I am starving and seeking more work.
• I was not seeking advice on pitching my charges. :|
• I do not charge £300 for all my websites. This is actually my minimum project charge. Sorry if I did not make that clear but I did say "£300 upwards".
• I am not a "web guy" who expects to get work for "little or no effort".

Now that I have clarified this ... and as an example ... I have a prospective client right now whose job I have priced at over £1300. He has been considering a new website now since October last year. I have spent about one hour on the telephone with him, created two quotes/proposals and attended a ninety minute meeting at his office 20 miles away in the city. This alone took almost four hours of my time. I have now spent a total of about one full working day on this and I still do not have the go ahead to do the work.

This is not because he does not like the price. He has a big business and the cost is a drop in the ocean to him. He is happy with my charges and what I am telling him. (He actually came to me as a referral from another long standing client.) He just won't make a decision on it and like the others that this thread is about he seems to think that my time is expendable and of no consequence.

Thank you for all your responses.

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[GeorgeStrait]

Do honestly think that building and maintaining a website that will generate sufficient enquiries to support a web design business can be done with "little or no effort"?

That is where a lot of you guys go wrong, you can't see beyond the web. All you've put into that website to support your business is your time - great your in business you'll do a lot of seemingly unpaid work.

Why do you think that all your work should come straight to you through your website? Is it below you to leave your PC and actually put the effort in to get out there in the real world and meet you customers?

Maybe, just maybe, you would be better off putting some of that time you spend fiddling about with your website into visiting those clients and actually getting work from people that are asking for it. Time well spent I would have thought.

Sales reps spend hours upon hours travelling the country selling their wares, shops open long hours and pay huge costs to get their customers, builders/plumbers make many home visits to quote for jobs, accountants provide free consultation - visiting the potential clients business, so why do some web people seem to think they should not have to put the same effort in to get customers? Very strange attitude.

 

[estwig]

This is a problem for me, I do plans and gain planning permission for Joe Public for house extensions and loft conversions. Joe Public on the whole seems to have no concept of the idea that...

Time = Money. To me money and time are the same thing.

To help overcome this, I work to fixed prices this way I don't need to go and quote for the work.

Sinlge storey house extension £xx
Two storey house extension £xx
and so on
The prices are clearly displayed on my website. You could do something similar, x size website costs £x, xx size website costs £xx and so on.

When someone makes contact wanting plans, I speak to them on the phone, I get their address and go look at their house on google earth, OS maps and check flood risk and any planning constraints on their property. I do this whilst they are on the phone, this builds a rapport and trust and helps me to suss out if they are time wasters. It's an excuse to get talking and get away from the, 'can you come out and have a look' senario.

I do have to go and see people, mainly to survey, after having gone through the phone routine, most agree (I gently close them down) to the work before I come out. So time is not wasted running around giving quotes.

My point is could you not do something similar, fixed prices for the work, then get their phone number and contact details, then you could ask them a series of questions, to build a rapport and trust....

Ask for examples of website they like, go and look and discuss them
Ask how they do their marketing, online or offline?
Who are their customers?
What do they sell?
etc

I have a list of questions, more designed to get the prospect talking about what they want, than anything else. Then I can turn this around and repeat back to them what they told me they wanted. Give the punter what they want, it's classic sales.

 

[bdw]

Why do you think that all your work should come straight to you through your website?

Because that's what we do, it is our business and that's the way we make it happen. We can also make it happen like this for our clients. That's why they pay us.

Sales reps spend hours upon hours travelling the country selling their wares, shops open long hours and pay huge costs to get their customers, builders/plumbers make many home visits to quote for jobs, accountants provide free consultation - visiting the potential clients business, so why do some web people seem to think they should not have to put the same effort in to get customers? Very strange attitude.

It's not strange at all because I am not a sales rep. I am not a plumber. I am not a builder. I am not an accountant. Amongst other things I am a website designer. I put in lots of effort to generate work in the way that best suits my business, don't you?

My work consist of building websites for people who need them and who ask me to do it for them. According to my existing clients I am quite good at it. I can do it without the need for face to face meetings because what I do is done online. You should read about it. It is happening everywhere nowadays ...

... but then you are not serious.

... are you?

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[GeorgeStrait]

Because that's what we do, it is our business and that's the way we make it happen. We can also make it happen like this for our clients. That's why they pay us.

It's not strange at all because I am not a sales rep. I am not a plumber. I am not a builder. I am not an accountant. Amongst other things I am a website designer. I put in lots of effort to generate work in the way that best suits my business, don't you?

My work consist of building websites for people who need them and who ask me to do it for them. According to my existing clients I am quite good at it. I can do it without the need for face to face meetings because what I do is done online. You should read about it. It is happening everywhere nowadays ...

... but then you are not serious.

... are you?

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Who do you produce website for? Just other online traders, or would you recommend every business has a website?

You may not be aware of it but you are a salesman as well.

 

[bdw]

My point is could you not do something similar, fixed prices for the work, then get their phone number and contact details, then you could ask them a series of questions, to build a rapport and trust....

Yes, I do all of this and always have done. Actually I get most of my website traffic from people seeking information about website prices because my site provides much more information on this than most.

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[GeorgeStrait]

I give up, sorry.

By the way, you need your business address details on your website.

 

[bdw]

Who do you produce website for? Just other online traders, or would you recommend every business has a website?

Sorry, I have lost my way here. Can you explain what this has got to do with it?

You may not be aware of it but you are a salesman as well.

Have you ever heard of ecommerce and online sales? This is the latest in thing. I can send you some free documentation that will allow you to read up on it if you like.

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[bdw]

So why do you think having just a website is sufficient when you recommend the opposite to your clients?

You are going to have to explain (slowly) to me what you mean by this. :|

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

Because that's what we do, it is our business and that's the way we make it happen. We can also make it happen like this for our clients. That's why they pay us.

It's not strange at all because I am not a sales rep. I am not a plumber. I am not a builder. I am not an accountant. Amongst other things I am a website designer. I put in lots of effort to generate work in the way that best suits my business, don't you?

My work consist of building websites for people who need them and who ask me to do it for them. According to my existing clients I am quite good at it. I can do it without the need for face to face meetings because what I do is done online. You should read about it. It is happening everywhere nowadays ...

... but then you are not serious.

... are you?

.

It is actually surprising at the change in how people do business.

I run an online only accountancy practice - we never meet clients and have no need to and it works extremely well.

I have done my best to make this clear on our website and to date have never once had any issues with a client expecting or wanting a meeting. It is one of the ways we keep the fees low by operating in this way.

I of course appreciate not everyone wants to work online only and thats fine different services suit different people but the way services can, and are provided, is certainly changing.

Potential clients just need to be very clear from the onset how you work and they can decide if thats for them.

 

[estwig]

Yes, I do all of this and always have done. Actually I get most of my website traffic from people seeking information about website prices because my site provides much more information on this than most.

.

But that's not what you want, people seeking information is no good. You need people who want you to build a website, not ask you questions.

If people are contacting you seeking information about website prices, then that information is obviously not available on your website, so you get time wasters pestering you.

Make the information available, then people will only contact you if they like what they see and read, only serious people will contact you. This is the first line of defence against time wasters.

 

[MyAccountantOnline]

But that's not what you want, people seeking information is no good. You need people who want you to build a website, not ask you questions.

If people are contacting you seeking information about website prices, then that information is obviously not available on your website, so you get time wasters pestering you.

Make the information available, then people will only contact you if they like what they see and read, only serious people will contact you. This is the first line of defence against time wasters.

I agree entirely

 

[estwig]

By the way, you need your business address details on your website.

I had my suspicions, you has let the cat outta the bag!!

 

[GeorgeStrait]

I had my suspicions, you has let the cat outta the bag!!

Eh, not so cryptic I'm stoopid you know.

 

[estwig]

Eh, not so cryptic I'm stoopid you know.

Your anything but.

 

[bdw]

By the way, you need your business address details on your website.

I don't think I do actually and yes, I have read all the legislation (which applies only to registered companies). And yes, I have also read the UK's Ecommerce regulations, which I understand to apply to B2C transactions.

Anyway, AFAIK no one has ever got in trouble for not displaying an address on a website under any circumstances that I am aware of. There is no record of this but feel free to correct me if I am wrong.

I am not a registered company, I don't do B2C and I work from home so I and I no longer display my address because I have been pestered by cranks in the past. I do have my full content details on all correspondence with clients after the initial enquiry stage or on request. Feel free to report me to anyone you like if you want to create a test case.

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[bdw]

If people are contacting you seeking information about website prices, then that information is obviously not available on your website, so you get time wasters pestering you.

Sorry, you could not be more wrong about this. You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying here. Almost none of my initial enquiries are about website prices because my charges are explained in great detail and as transparently as I can make them on my website.

What I said was ...

Actually I get most of my website traffic from people seeking information about website prices because my site provides much more information on this than most.

Note the reference to website traffic - not enquiries. Trust me! After ten years of this I have picked up a wee bit of knowledge and practical experience.

You perhaps need to understand what targeted traffic actually is so I'll try to explain it in more detail (and give you a free tip while doing so). If someone is looking for information about website prices then (unless they are rivals just seeking info) it is a pretty good bet that they or someone they know needs a website. Many of the people using "website price/cost" related terms to search on Google find their way to my site (try it). Some of them will then progress this to a full enquiry. This is highly targeted traffic.

Now can we get back on topic?


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[MyAccountantOnline]

Now can we get back on topic?


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I've got a wee bit lost here - do you actually want to offer meetings or not then?

 

[bdw]

Read the original post and tell me what you think?


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[MyAccountantOnline]

Read the original post and tell me what you think?


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Hi I actually truly dont know - maybe thats some of the problem?

I really am only trying to help no scarcasm at all.

 

[JohnnyCash]

Now that I have clarified this ... and as an example ... I have a prospective client right now whose job I have priced at over £1300. He has been considering a new website now since October last year. I have spent about one hour on the telephone with him, created two quotes/proposals and attended a ninety minute meeting at his office 20 miles away in the city. This alone took almost four hours of my time. I have now spent a total of about one full working day on this and I still do not have the go ahead to do the work.

This is not because he does not like the price. He has a big business and the cost is a drop in the ocean to him. He is happy with my charges and what I am telling him. (He actually came to me as a referral from another long standing client.) He just won't make a decision on it and like the others that this thread is about he seems to think that my time is expendable and of no consequence.

If you are treating your own time as expendable and of no consequence, why shouldn't everyone else?

Moreso with this person coming to you from a personal recommendation you should have refused to throw away 4 hours of your time, unpaid.

 

[estwig]

Sorry, you could not be more wrong about this. You seem to have misunderstood what I am saying here. Almost none of my initial enquiries are about website prices because my charges are explained in great detail and as transparently as I can make them on my website.

What I said was ...Note the reference to website traffic - not enquiries. Trust me! After ten years of this I have picked up a wee bit of knowledge and practical experience.

You perhaps need to understand what targeted traffic actually is so I'll try to explain it in more detail (and give you a free tip while doing so). If someone is looking for information about website prices then (unless they are rivals just seeking info) it is a pretty good bet that they or someone they know needs a website. Many of the people using "website price/cost" related terms to search on Google find their way to my site (try it). Some of them will then progress this to a full enquiry. This is highly targeted traffic.

Now can we get back on topic?


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You're patronising and condescending.

I hope many punters waste your time.

 

[MASSEY]

Now that I have clarified this ... and as an example ... I have a prospective client right now whose job I have priced at over £1300. He has been considering a new website now since October last year. I have spent about one hour on the telephone with him, created two quotes/proposals and attended a ninety minute meeting at his office 20 miles away in the city. This alone took almost four hours of my time. I have now spent a total of about one full working day on this and I still do not have the go ahead to do the work.

To be honest, i think you are being unreasonable :redface:.

Using your £1300 quid as an example, when some one phones me or my partners and wants their home rewiring or what have you, we don’t say "what type of house how many bedrooms that will be x amount", you have to visit them.

The original phone call could be half an hour, the travel there the discussion and the travel back could be 2 hours. Then you have to mail a quote off to them.

You feel as though it is all straightforward because it comes naturally to you, the person enquiring most of the times has very little knowledge and is scared of being done over by a stranger.

 

[GeorgeStrait]

To be honest, i think you are being unreasonable :redface:.

Using your £1300 quid as an example, when some one phones me or my partners and wants their home rewiring or what have you, we don't say "what type of house how many bedrooms that will be x amount", you have to visit them.

The original phone call could be half an hour, the travel there the discussion and the travel back could be 2 hours. Then you have to mail a quote off to them.

You feel as though it is all straightforward because it comes naturally to you, the person enquiring most of the times has very little knowledge and is scared of being done over by a stranger.

Thank you Massey, I'm not sure why BDW thinks all his jobs should come to him whilst he's just sat in his spare bedroom with a pc. Should the punters spend their time and money visiting him just in case he's up to the job? Perhaps I should visit my suppliers to save them the trouble and expense of employing reps - it's seems a shame that they have to spend time and money to get customers, most unfair.

Actually, I have a business that gets 95% of enquiries through the website, each and every one is followed up with a personal visit, we have a conversion rate of 90% on those visits becoming clients. I may be getting this really wrong but I consider that time and money well spent.

BDW
Really, seriously, do make sure you know the legal requirements for your business website. If anybody has been prosecuted or not is irrelevant, it just makes you look a bit of dullard to potential customers, and it matters not if you are B2B to B2C, Ltd or sole. That's all, a bit of friendly advice.

 

[Matt1959]

i think Maxine gives best advice on this thread - firmly and calmly, these are our terms, take it or leave it although arguably there must be a point where the value of an order dictates some extra effort on the providers part.

If I had a £1300 potential order, I'd do several phone/ email conversations and prob a max of two visits 20m away before saying no more in the face of not getting an order. If I had plenty of work and didnt have to work anyway, I'd only do one visit instead of two.

This said, in my experience its not difficult to suss the time wasters from the word go so can tailor response appropriately - I think some people get this right more than others - I got it spectaculalry wrong the other week though - 1) email enquiry -loads of work 2) phone call - sounds good 3) turned up at house - she forgot i was coming 4) after the visit she said if she had it done she'd do it when she moved in a years time

 

[bdw]

I really am only trying to help no scarcasm at all.

I am sorry if you took it this way. It was not meant as sarcasm (as denoted by the smiley).

But that's not what you want, people seeking information is no good. You need people who want you to build a website, not ask you questions.

You're patronising and condescending.I hope many punters waste your time.

Nice!

Actually from where I am sitting it is you who is just being dogmatic here. I actually agreed with you and thanked you on your post earlier this morning. Later I was just responding to your post in which you said something about my website and my business that was wrong. You clearly misunderstood what I said and then, based on this, you started telling me what I wanted.

I can assure you that there was no intent to be patronising but if you misunderstand what I am saying and make comments that are wrong about me then I reserve the right to put the record straight.

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[bdw]

Oh and have a look at Georgestrait's last post if you want to see sarcasm and patronisation.

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[GeorgeStrait]

Oh and have a look at Georgestrait's last post if you want to see sarcasm and patronisation.

.

I'm not going to argue about it, but just explain in one sentence why you feel it's unreasonable of you to go out and visit clients to get new business. I gave a good few examples of business that do exactly this, including one of my own. All you have said is you don't want to, which is fair enough and good for you, but why then start a thread about it and moan about those that disagree :|

Yes it was slightly sarcastic, I presume as a business owner you are not troubled by points being made in this way, it's often the best way to get said point across as clearly as possible. Sorry if you were offended, that wasn't the intention.

Nothing patronising there though, just facts which by definition can't be patronising

 

[Deleted member 59730]

I have a supplier who comes to see me from Italy. I also visit him.

A local web design company flew to the States to see a prospective client.

You cannot compare rock bottom price cutters with all business.

 

[GeorgeStrait]

I have a supplier who comes to see me from Italy. I also visit him.

A local web design company flew to the States to see a prospective client.

You cannot compare rock bottom price cutters with all business.

]

Good point spectacularly missed by me. I presumed we were dealing with a professional company providing a professional service. My bad

 

[bdw]

Apart from being anonymous is there any need for you to be rude, ignorant and sarcastic with cheap shots like this?

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