Interest from a major chain - erhm, what next?

[MOIC]

There are some points to learn and take away from this thread.

1. If you have a niche product, you can get a multiple group on board.

2. The rules with supplying these multiple groups are ALL in their favour.

The holy grail, it ain't.

A learning curve, absolutely!

Their discount structure and cancellation policies, to name but two areas, leave a lot to be desired and I have known multi million pound businesses go bankrupt ( more than once ) supplying the multiple groups.

The bigger the orders, the bigger the risk.

It's not for everyone.

In all fairness to Pish.Pash, he seems to have his feet on the ground, albeit a little inexperienced with what to expect in the coming months if all goes well.

 

[Pish_Pash]

This is just a vent (of no educational intent whatsoever).....it turns out the customer's distribution centre think they have accepted the goods in, however the freight company say the goods were rejected & the pallet is still on the truck ...this has gone on for several hours round & round (mainly because my contacts aren't at the pointy end...they then have to call other people within their respective companies) ...I have zero idea where my stock is! (though I suspect it's still on the truck)

I'm fuming...

1. they (the receiving customer) shouldn't have rejected the goods so quick - some jobsworth in play at the depot methinks.
2. The freight company driver should have at least waited until a quick phone call was implemented to resolve (I'd paid them extra for a timed slot)

£126 for delivery & my goods aren't delivered :-(

.....like I say just a vent, but I'm on the ceiling with annoyance here (& I guess this is one of the delightful by-products of dealing with BIG companies)

 

[Bob]

Wish you the best of luck @Pish_Pash
We may not see eye to eye on the value of accountants and the use of People Per Hour but I respect your ability to have had your accounts done on the cheap.
Your current venture in to multiple store retailing is a valuable contribution to the knowledge available on UKBF. Please ignore those posters who are detracting from what you are doing and are trying to pick your figures to pieces. They are not adding value to the thread. Just let us know how it progresses and I hope the result is that you make so much money that you need to employ one of the qualified accountants posting on UKBF to sort out and minimise your huge tax bill

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Wish you the best of luck @Pish_Pash
We may not see eye to eye on the value of accountants and the use of Purple Per Hour but I respect your ability to have had your accounts done on the cheap.
Your current venture in to multiple store retailing is a valuable contribution to the knowledge available on UKBF. Please ignore those posters who are detracting from what you are doing and are trying to pick your figures to pieces. They are not adding value to the thread. Just let us know how it progresses and I hope the result is that you make so much money that you need to employ one of the qualified accountants posting on UKBF to sort out and minimise your huge tax bill

Hmmm, not adding value??? I'd bet I'm adding more value simply by adding a little realism.

I'm not saying the op doesn't have some kind of deal with a chain. But NO chain with 600+ stores mucks about with £30 trials in each store over three months. That's not a trial and doesn't give any indication whatsoever about future sales. He may well be in 25 or so stores as a trial with his miniscule amounts, which is how most new products are tested.

Come on for God's sake. Which major chain would allow a product to sit on it's shelves for three months, with at best half a dozen units, as a trial. None would, simply because shelf space is to valuable.

Add to fact, as given by him, he can't afford £25k of sale or return , and is working from his dining room table. It's a stretch to see how he's going to be able to bank roll £900,000+ to fulfill the orders should this trial be a success.

I also have the the abity to take pictures of a few boxes in my hall......

 

[Pish_Pash]

Add to fact, as given by him, he can't afford £25k of sale or return , and is working from his dining room table.

there you go again...I didn't say I didn't have the money?!! (point me to any of my former posts where I said "I can't afford it")...I said I simply didn't want to risk £25k to them on 'sale or return' (for fear of ending up with £25k of returned stock in tatters). You need to differentiate between me being solvent & me being stupid!

Also I'm not operating from a dining room table, my office is decent sized downstairs room in our home (which would normally be used as a dining room - hence the running gag)....there's no dining table in this room (we eat at our kitchen table!)

It's a stretch to see how he's going to be able to bank roll £900,000+ to fulfill the orders should this trial be a success...

I actually have a decent wad of cash sitting in the bank (from a former house sale ....alas from way too many years ago for me to gloat & be smug about ...I missed the boom ...plus a chunky amount of redundancy money from my job of 20yrs with a Blue Chip financial company)......so I'm well funded (I've not had to go anywhere near a bank for funding yet - nor do I project that I'll need to anytime soon).

IMHO they would never order £900k in one single order (think about it, if they were risk averse to ask for £10k's worth of stock on sale or return, I don't think they are going to go excessively large on any one individual order!)...much like any other business, they'll need to watch their own cashflow & they will no doubt forecast number of units required against lead time, to ensure they have a steady couple of months stockholding in their distrbution centre

I'd imagine (& it's a guess), that if the trial is successful, they'll probably order circa £50k of stock as a 'first order', then a couple of months later another £50k & so on...therefore at any given time they'll probably have about £50k-£100k owing to me (nowhere near the £900k you speak of.)

Ricky, you're carrying an unhealthy amount of cynicism...it's clouding your judgement!

 

[Twinkle Toes]

there you go again...I didn't say I didn't have the money?!! (point me to any of my former posts where I said "I can't afford it")...I said I simply didn't want to risk £25k to them on 'sale or return' (for fear of ending up with £25k of returned stock in tatters). You need to differentiate between me being solvent & me being stupid!

Also I'm not operating from a dining room table, my office is decent sized downstairs room in our home (which would normally be used as a dining room - hence the running gag)....there's no dining table in this room (we eat at our kitchen table!)



I actually have a decent wad of cash sitting in the bank (from a former house sale ....alas from way too many years ago for me to gloat & be smug about ...I missed the boom ...plus a chunky amount of redundancy money from my job of 20yrs with a Blue Chip financial company)......so I'm well funded (I've not had to go anywhere near a bank for funding yet - nor do I project that I'll need to anytime soon).

IMHO they would never order £900k in one single order (think about it, if they were risk averse to ask for £10k's worth of stock on sale or return, I don't think they are going to go excessively large on any one individual order!)...much like any other business, they'll need to watch their own cashflow & they will no doubt forecast number of units required against lead time, to ensure they have a steady couple of months stockholding in their distrbution centre

I'd imagine (& it's a guess), that if the trial is successful, they'll probably order circa £50k of stock as a 'first order', then a couple of months later another £50k & so on...therefore at any given time they'll probably have about £50k-£100k owing to me (nowhere near the £900k you speak of.)

Ricky, you're carrying an unhealthy amount of cynicism...it's clouding your judgement!

You simply don't understand retail, get out now while you can. If your trial works you'll have to provide stock for the next three months. If it sells half a dozen units per day you that have provided SOR then that is £900,000 you need to find before you get paid.

The £900,000 isn't a one off sale, it's the cost of stock you'll need to supply before you get paid against your first small invoice. Again, if you don't understand that now is the time to walk.

Now add on your othere costs......

You're in fantasy land. Unless of course you have £1,000,000 to gamble on this (going by your figures and facts), in which case I wish you luck. But I doubt it if £10k is being "risk adverse".

 

[Pish_Pash]

You simply don't understand retail, get out now while you can. If your trial works you'll have to provide stock for the next three months. If it sells half a dozen units per day that have provided SOR then that is £900,000 you need to find before you get paid.

You're assuming a dozen units per day per branch ...that just ain't gonna happen (my supplier has provided hard sales figures from other countries for similar sized retailers...so I sort of know what to expect 'in the ballpark')....2-3 units per WEEK per branch is nearer the mark (& even then, that'd be impressive)....if they sell 12 units per day per branch...that would be something in the order of £40m turnover (for them) off this one product ...nope, it's going to be nowhere near that (a nice thought though...I'd certainly be a millionaire!)

Since this is a long established retailer (with no dark clouds circling them), I'd be prepared to extend them a good line of credit (a couple of hundred thousand quid)....if they want me to pony up more than that, then either my supplier will have to show some skin (unlikely) or I'd have to visit my bank waving this retailer's Purchase Order in hand (which ought to oil the cogs)

[by the way Ricardo - first you're telling me I'm in fantasy land for even suggesting I have this 'sale or return' trial going ahead, now you're telling me I'm in fantasyland at not being able to keep up with their (unknown) demands ....but you don't even know me (or my financial situation ...so there's a lot of assumptions there!]

Besides, these are nice problems to have & not "oh my god, get out now" type issues, lol

Re being £10k risk averse...that's because they are taking £10,000 of my stock & experimenting with it in their branches (which could see it all being returned on a whim tatty/unsellable etc.)....there's a whole world of difference between that scenario & a firm (non 'sale or return') type follow on order ...I'm not overly risk averse to them giving me a mega purchase order! Sure, it'd focus my mind, but in such a 'moment of truth' I don't think I'd crumble....in fact I'd probably upgrade my dining room.

 

[RedOnion]

You simply don't understand retail, get out now while you can. If your trial works you'll have to provide stock for the next three months. If it sells half a dozen units per day you that have provided SOR then that is £900,000 you need to find before you get paid.

Considering we do not know who the retailer is I do not know how you can make this statement. Previously I have worked for a company who sold goods into very well known retailers. Their standard terms were 90 days EOM, but there were ways to get paid within 2 weeks, often quicker. Don't know if this would apply to the OP, but you cannot assume that all retailers, large or small, treat everyone exactly the same.

 

[RedOnion]

I'd imagine (& it's a guess), that if the trial is successful, they'll probably order circa £50k of stock as a 'first order', then a couple of months later another £50k & so on...therefore at any given time they'll probably have about £50k-£100k owing to me (nowhere near the £900k you speak of.)

Just a thought, but will they actually keep stock, or would they expect you to keep stock and send it to them as and when they need it?

From previous dealings with retailers, when they take the goods in from you (on the timed delivery that you have had to pay extra for) they are then sent out quite quickly to the stores, they don't necessarily keep stock for long at the distribution centre. Realise not every retailer is the same, just something you may want to think about and consider.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Just a thought, but will they actually keep stock, or would they expect you to keep stock and send it to them as and when they need it?

From previous dealings with retailers, when they take the goods in from you (on the timed delivery that you have had to pay extra for) they are then sent out quite quickly to the stores, they don't necessarily keep stock for long at the distribution centre. Realise not every retailer is the same, just something you may want to think about and consider.

You make a good point & yes, it's likely to be as you say (I got carried away replying to Ricky)...I'll be on the hook for storage costs & 'tied up capital' in that respect (on the plus side, the journey time is 2 months from the supplier - the ship is sort of a pseudo 'Big yellow Storage' company...albeit one you can't access the goods immediately). Absolutely key here will logistics.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Considering we do not know who the retailer is I do not know how you can make this statement. Previously I have worked for a company who sold goods into very well known retailers. Their standard terms were 90 days EOM, but there were ways to get paid within 2 weeks, often quicker. Don't know if this would apply to the OP, but you cannot assume that all retailers, large or small, treat everyone exactly the same.

The op has to expect 90 days as that is the norm. He/She may get lucky and be paid sooner, hope he does..

But come on, what 600+ chain takes £30 odd off stock per branch and sticks it on there on their shelves for two months as a trial?!!

 

[Pish_Pash]

But come on, what 600+ chain takes £30 odd off stock per branch and sticks it on there on their shelves for two months as a trial?!!

We're going around in a loop...the answer to your question would be the one that I've agreed this deal with! (they wanted 2.5x the amount of stock that I offered them)... it's factual, 100% real. So it looks like your past experience gained doesn't always tally with what's happening in the here & now (perhaps you've assumed this is Tescos, Boots etc ...I can see why you might be saying what you're saying if it were one of those ...but it ain't, they have nationwide branches, but typically small premises!)

 

[Twinkle Toes]

We're going around in a loop...the answer to your question would be the one that I've agreed this deal with! (they wanted 2.5x the amount of stock that I offered them)... it's factual, 100% real. So it looks like your past experience gained doesn't always tally with what's happening in the here & now (perhaps you've assumed this is Tescos, Boots etc ...I can see why you might be saying what you're saying if it was one of those ...but it ain't, they have nationwide branches, but small premises!)

Didn't think it was Tesco etc, but even 600+ branches don't deal in your pathetic amounts per branch.

I'm just saying you are inexperienced and your product isn't going into 600+ stores, which, on your numbers, it isn't.

Get your legal guys to go through the contract with you fully.

 

[beasty]

I'm not saying he's not got a trial, what I can guarantee though is his product isn't going into 600+ plus stores, not on the "facts" he's given.

YOU cannot guarantee anything as you do not know,
You do not know the product
Nor do you know the buyer so offering a guarantee would mean you must have special powers of some kind

OR

you consider your stabs in the dark as facts, you like me know fk all about what the retailer will do next (How could we know, we do not even know what the product is?)
What they may or may not do with 4 units in each store you do not know, consider they might just display them and say STOCK COMING SOON!! and see how many enquires they get

they could do one of many things and YOU DO NOT KNOW so give us all a break

YOU DO NOT KNOW, i find repetition helps

Please stop telling someone who knows MUCH more about the deal the than you do what the company will or will not do, YOU DO NOT KNOW

Go on NOW
TELL ME YOU KNOW!

 

[Twinkle Toes]

YOU cannot guarantee anything as you do not know, you seem to consider your stabs in the dark as facts, you know fk all about what the retailer will do next or what they may or may not do with 4 units in each store, they could do one of many things and YOU DO NOT KNOW so give us all a break

YOU DO NOT KNOW so stop telling someone who knows MUCH more about the deal than you do what the company will or will not do, YOU DO NOT KNOW!!

Go on TELL ME YOU KNOW!

Just look at the numbers, then you'll know, providing you can do simple maths and understand retail. If you don't then sure, side with the op.

 

[beasty]

Not about sides I could not care less about sides on a forum, i like the thread your stupid posts are ruining it

He is reporting some info to a forum, from that you feel you can tell us with guarantees what the buyer will do next

You cant

Edited my post to give you an example of what they MAY do, YOU do not even know the product, its potential or how the initial product might or EVEN COULD be used to test demand in advance of an order.

It may be interactive, it might be a counter display, it may be something that takes a picture and emails it to your car windscreen IT MAY be they use it to test demand , IT MAY BE many things YOU DO NOT KNOW

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Not about sides, he is reporting some info, from that you feel you can tell us what the buyer will do next

You cant, simple, i edited my post to give you an example of what they MAY do, YOU do not even know the product, its potential or how the initial product might OR COULD be used to test demand in advance of an order.

And no retailer can possibly know the potential from half a dozen sales per branch. Simple. He may well be in a a few dozen branches, which is how chains work, as a new product he isn't in all 600+ branches at a half a dozen units per branch over a three month trial!!!

 

[Bob]

And no retailer can possibly know the potential from half a dozen sales per branch. Simple. He may well be in a a few dozen branches, which is how chains work, as a new product he isn't in all 600+ branches at a half a dozen units per branch over a three month trial!!!

But a. Do we care? b. Does it matter?
@Pish_Pash can say what he wants. Only he knows what he is actually doing.
Whatever you say will change nothing and hopefully you will be proved wrong. He certainly wouldn't be the first member to make a million against all the odds and I hope he joins them.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

But a. Do we care? b. Does it matter?
@Pish_Pash can say what he wants. Only he knows what he is actually doing.
Whatever you say will change nothing and hopefully you will be proved wrong. He certainly wouldn't be the first member to make a million against all the odds and I hope he joins them.

He won't be making million if £10k is a risk.

Why the fick are you unable to simply look at his figures to see the op is on a non starter. I thought this was business forum!

 

[beasty]

Dear BIG SUPERMARKET
(Not sure which one)

I do not know why you have agreed to take delivery of 10k of product from PISHPASH,

Let me point out I do not know what he shipped you is exactly (Or at all really), also i have no idea what it does if i am being honest, i cannot know who it might appeal to which logically means that yes i cannot know what it may or may not replace.

I am writing to you simply to tell you that you with 100% certainty that it will not be put into 600 stores and he cannot and will not make a million

I GUARANTEE IT

(Because I do not know what we are talking about i cannot say how you would use them, how you could use them or how you will use them but my GUARANTEE requires almost no information to be valid.


You may ask me how I know
I just know OK

Your Sincerely
DICK HEAD

 

[Bob]

Your Sincerely
DICK HEAD

I was going to use that but I held back. My mother called me Robert but my friends call me Bob.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Dear BIG SUPERMARKET
(Not sure which one)

I do not know why you have agreed to take delivery of 10k of product from PISHPASH,

Let me point out I do not know what he shipped you is exactly (Or at all really), also i have no idea what it does if i am being honest, i cannot know who it might appeal to which logically means that yes i cannot know what it may or may not replace.

I am writing to you simply to tell you that you with 100% certainty that it will not be put into 600 stores and he cannot and will not make a million

I GUARANTEE IT

(Because I do not know what we are talking about i cannot say how you would use them, how you could use them or how you will use them but my GUARANTEE requires almost no information to be valid.


You may ask me how I know
I just know OK

Your Sincerely
DICK HEAD

Brilliant, another post that 'just knows"!!!!

Of course your word is better than mine because you "just know".

 

[beasty]

I know what you know about this
not much

 

[Bob]

He won't be making million if £10k is a risk.

Why the fick are you unable to simply look at his figures to see the op is on a non starter. I thought this was business forum!

I didn't think Duane Jackson would make any money as his company was technically insolvent so why would anyone think that I knew anything about figures

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I know what you know about this
not much

That is true, the op has been all over the place with this thread, even he doesn't know where he's at.

 

[Twinkle Toes]

I didn't think Duane Jackson would make any money as his company was technically insolvent so why would anyone think that I knew anything about figures

Don't know who Duane Jackson is, and even less idea what he might have to do with this thread.

 

[Pish_Pash]

Since this whole thread now seems to have morphed into how this retailer is going to distribute my stock amongst their branches, I can hereby declare that the buyer - when asking for £25k of stock (for the trial period) - did say they'd be going into all branches ...upon reflection, - & for the sake of balance - when I culled their requirement offer back to a more palatable £10k of stock, I don't recall having further dialogue about distribution strategy ....... I think Richard is missing the point of the thread - he seems more keen to cast doubt on all of this (& contribute in a 'know it all' style)...I'm all ears (to all & sundry), but frankly, some Richard's numbers are way out (e.g. me having to sub them £900k of stock)...yes I'll be on the hook for extending them a LOT of credit (& storing a lot of product) but bring these challenges on

He won't be making million if £10k is a risk.

£10,000 is a risk when it's 'sale or return' into a 'unknown quantity' (I have no idea how respectful they will be of my stock...& several contributions near the beginning of this thread advised me to assume the worst - there's little point in having a thread if I'm going to ignore the recommendations!)...so I have no idea why you keep banging on about this part?!

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Since this whole thread now seems to have morphed into how this retailer is going to distribute my stock amongst their branches, I can hereby declare that the buyer - when asking for £25k of stock (for the trial period) - did say they'd be going into all branches ...upon reflection, - & for the sake of balance - when I culled their requirement offer back to a more palatable £10k of stock, I don't recall having further dialogue about distribution strategy ....... I think Richard is missing the point of the thread - he seems more keen to cast doubt on all of this (& contribute in a 'know it all' style)...I'm all ears (to all & sundry), but frankly, some Richard's numbers are way out (e.g. me having to sub them £900k of stock)...yes I'll be on the hook for extending them a LOT of credit (& storing a lot of product) but bring these challenges on

If you've got funds in place to make this a goer then all power to you. If you don't have £900,000+ to play with then seriously ditch it now.

 

[Pish_Pash]

If you've got funds in place to make this a goer then all power to you. If you don't £900,00+ then seriously ditch it now.

Hmm, the story so far...

Find a dependable supplier with a great product - check!
Trial the market - check!
Build overall sales towards bagging 'exclusivity' on the product - check!
'Get creative' towards getting a foot in the door with large retailers - check!
Bin the whole idea because I may need £900k due to a possible massive order - whoaah...I'm outta here dude!!

Seriously, ask just about anyone on this forum if they'd like to be faced with that last issue?!!!!

 

[MOIC]

Isn't it time for a moderator to intervene and keep the thread on the right track and not end up in a slanging match, which it seems to be heading?

 

[beasty]

Hmm, the story so far...

Find a supplier with a great product - check!
Trial the market - check!
Get exclusivity on the product - check!
'Get creative' towards getting a foot in the door with large retailers - check!
Bin the whole idea because I may need £900k due to a possible massive order - whoaah...I'm outta here dude!!

Phew, that was close, you need to be careful or you might get rich

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Hmm, the story so far...

Find a supplier with a great product - check!
Trial the market - check!
Get exclusivity on the product - check!
'Get creative' towards getting a foot in the door with large retailers - check!
Bin the whole idea because I may need £900k due to a possible massive order - whoaah...I'm outta here dude!!

No, the £900,000 is simply to maintain your very low initial sales.

 

[Pish_Pash]

No, the £900,000 is simply to maintain your very low initial sales.

I'm all ears ...because (to this noob at least) that doesn't read as making much sense.

I think they've probably caught whiff that I'm small fry due to me baulking at offering them £25k on 'sale or return' - they didn't walk away when I stood my ground at £10k (edit: actually, they know my company is small, because my initial email started something like "We're a small UK based distributor of...."). So I'm very much doubting that they are going to come back to me & say ..."well, the trial went well...c'mon get your wallet out...we wanna see your pony up £900k to maintain low initial sales"

 

[Breaking Good]

No, the £900,000 is simply to maintain your very low initial sales.

How do you have time to care about this so much? I think that's the most amazing part about this thread.

 

[Bob]

Don't know who Duane Jackson is, and even less idea what he might have to do with this thread.

You don't know everything then. A member with a few more posts than you and probably slightly more successful

 

[Twinkle Toes]

Isn't it time for a moderator to intervene and keep the thread on the right track and not end up in a slanging match, which it seems to be heading?

So a difference of opion requires moderation, to which point of view?

I know retail, the op has admitted he/she doesn't. Who is right? I'd say it it's myself, having experience I'm retail. The op has admittedly he doesn't.

Of course if different opinions count as trolling then you are welcome to your own little glee club!!!!?

 

[Pish_Pash]

I concur I don't know (large scale) retail...that's why I started the thread (but that said, I'm doing ok at small scale retail) ...but let's be candid - you called the bit about me making this all up totally wrong, so (in my eyes at least) your batting average isn't so strong!

Like I say, please explain "£900k to maintain low sales" ...I actually would like to know what you mean?

(No need for a mod in my opinion, out of all of this I might pick up something I hadn't foreseen)

 

[Twinkle Toes]

You don't know everything then. A member with a few more posts than you and probably slightly more successful

Didn't realise number of posts = business experience.

 

[Bob]

I know retail, the op has admitted he/she doesn't. Who is right? I'd say it it's myself, having experience I'm retail. The op has admittedly he doesn't.

Maybe it would help if you expanded on your experience and cv or do you also wish to maintain confidentiality. Your profile only refers to publishing not retail

 

[Bob]

Didn't realise posts = business experience.

He probably has far more business experience at the sharp end than you. Started off with a Prince's Trust loan. Doesn't need it now