Grievance and Dismissal.

Discussion in 'Employment & HR' started by Malang Baba, Mar 3, 2018.

  1. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    I worked for a Local Authority for over four years. In 2016, our Technical Officer was promoted and his position was vacant. Management planned to appoint their favourite person on the post. As the candidate was not good in IT, Management changed the Position to Operations Support Officer. I applied for for the post but was not selected.
    This new role was supposed to be high grade with low money. As in my current role there was some contractual OT and evenings n weekends. But the selected candidate was paid according to previous role even working for less hours. It continued for over 6 Months.
    During job advert, it was made very clear that money will be low.
    I raised a grievance for unfairness and corruption against management.

    In the meantime, I travelled for extended holidays abroad and was involved in Motorbike accident. I was sick for over two months abroad. I sent the medical certificates.

    On my arrival, investigations started.
    And I was alleged for Fraud and Dishonesty.
    I was suspended, and finally Dismissed for Main allegations were
    Medical Certificates are not valid.
    Hospital does not exist.

    During this period, grievance investigation was concluded that selection was not unfair, although Candidate was getting extra payments.

    I took the Grievance to Stage 2.
    In the meantime, I am dismissed.

    After dismissal, I received letter that I can no longer continue with the grievance, as I am no longer employee of the Organisation.
    Can organisation do that???

    I appealed against my dismissal.
    Also, I involved ACAS for early reconciliation.
    If I get reinstated, what options I have???

    If They agree for some sort of settlement, how can we calculate the settlement???

    I need advice please.

    Thanks a lot in advance.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #1
  2. Mr D

    Mr D UKBF Legend Free Member

    9,034 911
    Were you in a union?

    I'm confused by what seems to be 2 stories here.
    The one about you injured and on the sick.
    And a separate one about someone else doing a job that you applied for and didn't get?
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Mr D Member since: Feb 12, 2017
    #2
  3. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Sorry for confusion.

    In short,
    I raised a grievance for unfairness.
    Then, I went sick.

    Management got rid of me alleging that Medical Certificates are not valid and Hospital doesn’t exist. They said, Medical Certificates need to be certified by High Commission of the Country.

    Anyways, I am dismissed.
    Now I appealed,
    Now My Medically certificates are certified by High Commission as well.

    My stance is
    They targeted me for raising the grievance.

    And after dismissing me, within one week they sent me letter,
    That They can not go ahead with stage 2 grievance, as I am no longer employee.

    Also,
    After getting dismissed, I didn’t receive dismissal letter for three weeks.
    After three weeks, when I appealed and raised the concern that why dismissal letter is not sent.
    They responded that dismissal letter was sent on wrong address by mistake.

    Thanks.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #3
  4. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    9,674 2,442
    A grievance is a complaint from an employee to an employer. If the employment relationship no lomger exists there can be no grievance.

    If your ex employer looks to settle your unfair dismissal case they will consider the amount you will be likely to win at tribunal and either offer you less if they think you won't win, or more if they think you will win.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #4
  5. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    Thanks a lot for your response.

    ACAS contacted the HR for early reconciliation.
    HR has asked, what sort of settlement I am looking for???

    ACAS wants to know from me.

    I am thinking to seek advice from employment lawyer, but don’t know how much lawyer will cost me???

    I believe,
    My case is straight forward, and HR will do one of two options.

    1. Reinstate me through internal appeal.
    2. Settle through ACAS.

    I will be happy for option 2.

    If they go for option 1, I really don’t know, what options I will have.
    I believe, if I get reinstated and start my job, I won’t feel secure there.
    Although, I don’t think that they will choose option 1. The reason is, if I get reinstated, they will have to investigate the grievance, and Management can be in trouble in that case.

    If they reinstate me, what options do I have???
    Honestly speaking, I won’t feel secure at workplace. I will get targeted, and will not last for six months. Same place, where I enjoyed more than four years of work. Where, I love all the staff, and all staff loves me.

    Thanks.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #5
  6. Toby Willows

    Toby Willows UKBF Regular Free Member

    759 164
    You’ve been sacked.

    You wouldn’t be welcomed back.

    You had a awful lot of time off. Was your “extended holiday” approved?

    You got a grump on because you didn’t get a promotion.

    What do you do now? You get another job and move on. Just because ACAS are involved doesn’t automatically mean you’ll get any compo’.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Toby Willows Member since: Jun 20, 2016
    #6
  7. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    Thanks for your response.

    1. Yes, Extended Holidays were approved.
    2. I had grievance against management, because they treated me unfairly. I would have absorbed it, but they continued to pay their favourite person more, even she never worked contracted overtime and evenings and weekends. I believe, this is fraud and corruption.
    Management at our workplace acts like untouchables. No one challenge them.
    I challenged it.
    I don’t think, it is wrong.
    3. What am I doing now? Within three days of dismissal, I started temporary job with agency. I also apply for the jobs, and working hard as well. I manage to pay my bills.
    I strongly believe, when one door closes, 10 new doors open for you.
    I agree that, I must look for another job and move on. I am definitely doing that.
    But, I also believe that never compromise on your rights.
    4. I know, ACAS reconciliation doesn’t mean that I will get compensation. But, I know strength of my case as well. I know, my ex employer will not go to tribunal.
    When I was dismissed, HR was accusing me of presenting fake medical certificates. They claimed that those certificates must be attested by High Commission to be accepted by organisation.
    Now, they have been arrested by High Commission. Now on what ground, they will reject my appeal???
    Also, when I returned from Holidays and Sickness, Management should have referred me to Occupational Health to get assessed. They asked me at four different occasions, my response was to refer me for assessment. But they did not refer me. I don’t know the reason, but I have raised this in my appeal.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #7
  8. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    9,674 2,442
    If you win a tribunal you would get:
    Redundancy money 1 week for every full year employed, or 1.5 weeks for every full year when you were over 41.
    Notice pay, if you were not given notice. Either what is in your contract or 1 week for every full year employed, whichever is higher
    Compensation calculated on your lost income between dismissal and you getting another job. If you haven't yet got another job, then a date by which you are likely to get a job provided you are looking.
    If there is a discrimination element, a sum fo injury to feelings.
    £250 odd for loss of statutory benefits.
    Work that out, add 50% and tell them that is how much you want. Then start to negotiate.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #8
  9. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    Thanks a lot for advice.
    I was reading on CAB website.
    If I have job offer, and the pay difference in Future job and previous job is £6000 / Annum,
    Can I add that as well???
    How that can work???

    Thanks.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #9
  10. Eliza2509

    Eliza2509 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    7 0
    I am slightly confused as to why a tribunal would calculate redundancy pay when the case doesn't involve redundancy at all? And it wouldn't give redundancy pay (for a redundancy that hadn't happened) and compensation for loss of earnings - it would be one or the other.

    I think that the story here is muddying the waters. The grievance is totally irrelevant. And it would be irrelevant even if the terms agreed with another employee were any of Malang Baba's business. But they weren't. There are many reasons why someone may be paid in accordance with other policies or work hours that are non- standard, and when those are applied to an employee, it is a matter between the employer and the employee. Nobody else. Malang Baba had no right to even know what those terms were, never mind object to them. Any mote than a third party had any right to comment on their terms of employment.

    But that is irrelevant. It is very simple. Were the medical certificates provided legitmate and properly certified? Did the hospital exist? Let's face it - alleging a hospital doesn't exist is a huge risk for the employer; it is something so easily proven. In this connected world, finding the hospital and providing proof of its existence and your admittance and treatment there will be easy. In the same way, the certificates were either attested by the High Commission or they were not. If they were not, even if they have now been (which is what you say here), they were not at the time of the dismissal, and that would make the dismissal fair. The information that the employer had at the time they made the decision would have been correct, and subsequent attestation wouldn't count. You can't turn back the clock and say they were valid if they weren't at the time.

    In many cases local authorities will offer an economic settlement, because that is the cheapest option for them. But it will not be generous. And since you have obtained work quickly, neither would any tribunal settlement be large. Based purely on what you have said here, you really don't know the strength of your case - because it's weak!

    I think the thing that you need to be more concerned about is not "justice" or "rights". Because even if you had a case, these are cold comfort. And just to be clear again - what arrangements they made to promote someone else, what they paid them, and what hours that person worked were never any of your business and still isn't any of your business. What you should be concerned about is your reference, something a tribunal cannot order as part of a settlement. That reference is worth far more than money. And right now it will truthfully say that you were dismissed for gross misconduct, and no tribunal can change that. Only negotiation can do that, and in your shoes that would be what I would be negotiating...

    And just for future reference, you accused your management of fraud and corruption. In the UK, what you have described is not fraud and corruption! Even if you are correct about everything, it is actually very common - and entirely legal! Accusing your employer falsely of fraud and corruption will get you dismissed one way or another in any workplace. Lessen the lesson and don't do it again!
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Eliza2509 Member since: Feb 23, 2018
    #10
  11. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Thanks a lot.

    1. I agree, That Mediacl Certificates were not certified at time of dismissal. Ok. No unfair dismissal.
    Hospital exists, you can find it in google Map as well.
    At appeal stage, Medical Certificates are certified. So, they don’t have any more grounds to keep their decision of dismissal. That’s why I believe,
    a. They will reinstate me.
    Or
    b. They will negotiate.

    2. Grievance. It is local authority, not a local shop.
    When they advertised the job internally, they informed all of us about pay and hours etc. I kept copy of that. Most of my colleagues didn’t apply due to pay difference.
    When I raised the grievance, after that management tried to scheduled their candidate to work some weekends to justify her pay.

    But, when I took the grievance to Stage 2, Management removed the Position for their candidate, and brought her back to her previous position.

    At stage 1 of grievance, management has already accepted that the candidate was receiving enhanced pay, but they tried to justify it.
    I challenged it at stage 2.

    At the same workplace, same Management had dismissed one of their staff few years back for finishing job one hour before time, and getting paid for one hour. He was accused of fraud.

    This case is not simple. The person was getting extra pay with no work for over 6 months. At that stage, I raised the grievance. After 6 months, she was scheduled for weekends. Management had defended by saying that she is doing weekends.

    At stage 2, when I raised few more points, including
    “Person had never done any weekend for six months until grievance, now management has scheduled her for weekends to cover up their action”.
    Immediately after that position is deleted, and the person is brought back to her previous position.

    Last but not least, I will fight for Right & Justice up to the highest level. It is not about money / compensation. It is about being fair. As far as reference is concerned, I strongly believe in Almighty LORD, who feeds the insects under the soil.
    I am ready to struggle. I can never compromise due to reference.
    Everyday, 1000s of workers go through injustice and unfairness and can’t speak, because they need to feed their families.
    This makes the managements dictators and untouchables. I don’t wanna live in this sort of world.
    I will prefer being self employed, and work harder with less money.
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2018
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #11
  12. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    It is called the basic award, which is calculated in the same way as redundancy. It is in addition to the compemsatory award.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #12
  13. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

    9,674 2,442
    The relevance is the possibilioty that the dismissal was motivated by the grievance. Whether the grievance was justified or not doe not matter.
    Where in any sickness procedure have you ever seen a requirement that medical certificates have to be attested by the High Commission? Why should they be? If they needed to be why wasn't the employee askewd to get them attested?
    A tribunal cannot order a settlement at all. A settlement is agreed outside the tribunal and can include a reference. A tribunal makes an award, the elements of which I set out above.
    I ould not see anything suggesting that the employee has obtained alternative employment. If they had why would they be including an option of reinstatement in their consideration? However if they have obtained alternative work, why are you so concerned about a reference?
    Within local government appointing someone to a post for any reason other than their being the bnest candidate would be considered fraud and corruption.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #13
  14. Eliza2509

    Eliza2509 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    7 0
    1. The certificates were not valid at the time of dismissal. Local authority disciplinary procedures are long drawn out. There must have been adequate time to supply valid ones before the dismissal - the appeal does not need to consider new evidence that could have been available at the time. And given this is a case of late issued certificates in another country, it won't take rocket science to work out what they - and quite possibly a tribunal - think happened. Such things can be purchased for a price. I'm not suggesting that you did this, but the evidence that you didn't is flimsy. And I've come across such cases of paid for certificates, so it happens...

    Yes I can Google any hospital on a map. It doesn't prove it exists or that I was there. Does it?

    2. Yes, I am well aware that it is a local authority. As a local authority union official I recognise it isn't the local shop. But that is irrelevant. The allegations that you have made are about matters that are none of your business, the outcomes are none of your business, and the reasons for the outcomes are none of your business. That is how confidentiality works. These things that you describe are not fraud and corruption. Those are allegations of criminal behavior. No criminal behavior happened. And they have nothing to do with the dismissal.

    Falsification of a timesheet - taking pay for a period you say you are working when you are not- is fraud!

    The case is simple. You are confusing things by trying to add irrelevancies. In relation to your "unfair" dismissal, the only relevant matters are those that you were dismissed for. Even if there are other issues, it is only the matters you are dismissed for.

    Newchodge- thank you. Yes I understand the basic award. It was the talk of redundancy pay that confused me.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Eliza2509 Member since: Feb 23, 2018
    #14
  15. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

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    Thanks a lot.

    That is your opinion,
    I can’t comment on that.

    My views are totally different from you.

    So,
    Let’s keep our difference of opinion.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #15
  16. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    Newchodge.

    One Question please,
    If I get new job offer,
    and I am trying to negotiate with ex employer,
    Can I include loss / difference of future pay???
    If it is £6000 / annum.

    How this can work???

    Thanks a lot.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #16
  17. Eliza2509

    Eliza2509 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    7 0
    Newchodge - sorry but I can't work out how to quote things.

    We will have to disagree. If the reason for dismissal is fair in law, then any motivation over the grievance is irrelevant. A motivation that can't be proven, over evidence that can?

    What a valid medical certificate consists of is laid down in national conditions for local authorities. When abroad there are conditions that must be met. The employee would have had time, when the allegations were made, to get the certificates properly attested. Local authorities take plenty of time overt these procedures, and all they had to do was ask for a postponement if they were able to obtain them. Not produce then at appeal. At that stage they are not new evidence. They could have been obtained for the hearing. And actually, given I work with local authorities I have seen the requirements for properly certified medical certificates used many times - there are huge numbers of staff affected by these conditions and its far from uncommon.

    You are correct. I used a wrong word. I said settlement instead of award. It's easy to use the wrong word. But the point is simple - you don't get a reference as part of an award, and the reference is worth a lot of money. The lack of it is worth a lot of unemployment.

    The poster said that they have obtained temporary employment in their post, within three weeks. That is what I based my comment on. Temporary employment still counts as income, as does benefits. However, because I understand how local authorities work, and I'm sure you do to, references from other authorities, or the same one even, get noticed if they are missing, and also things that perhaps shouldn't happen also happen! Phone calls, for example. And unless the poster has some way of covering up their four years in this employment, not something I'd recommend trying, currently their applications will need to explain their dismissal in many cases. So I'd consider a reference very important.

    I'm sure that you are aware that in local government, as elsewhere, the best candidate does not always get the job for many reasons. It might not be fair, whatever that means, but it's true. It is neither fraud, nor corruption. Those have specific legal meanings. Simply because this is the public sector doesn't change that. If appointing someone who isn't the best candidate were a criminal act, half the employers in the country would be behind bars.

    But as I said, we'll have to disagree. I wasn't looking for an argument. Just sharing my experience of many years of employment issues in local authorities, and how these things work.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Eliza2509 Member since: Feb 23, 2018
    #17
  18. Newchodge

    Newchodge UKBF Big Shot Free Member

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    If your case went to a tribunal, the tribunal would use their 'industry knowledge' to try to work out how long it would take to get you up to the salary level you had lost, and compensate you accordingly.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Newchodge Member since: Nov 8, 2012
    #18
  19. Eliza2509

    Eliza2509 UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    7 0
    Melang Baba - yes there are differences of opinion. I am going to give you one final piece of advice. Only listening to advice that is what you want to hear is the quickest way to making an even bigger mess of things. And this can get worse, even if you think it can't. Do not disregard opinion you don't agree with.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Eliza2509 Member since: Feb 23, 2018
    #19
  20. Malang Baba

    Malang Baba UKBF Newcomer Free Member

    12 0
    Thanks a lot.

    Newchodge.

    During ACAS reconciliation,
    Can I add that up as well???

    Loss of Future earning???

    Thanks.
     
    Posted: Mar 3, 2018 By: Malang Baba Member since: Mar 2, 2018
    #20