Entrepreneurship, a dying art?

[NotSo]

Is business becoming an increasing difficult endeavour to get your foot into ?

It feels like a lot of the new stuff isn't really new, but a continuum of old ideas enveloped in a different cloak (read brand, packaging). This is, at least in my mind, creating an interesting dilemma since creativity is becoming an ever elusive trait.

A quick cursory look at Amazon or your local supermarket, or the countless apps, cosmetics, skincare, or health brands asserts an endless stream of products which do mostly the same thing. Maybe it's a great thing for the consumer, but environmentally and for the entrepreneur this poses a number of key challenges.

It's almost as though business as an idea itself is being monopolised, and unless you are really able to innovate, you're in for a tough battle as the key players are thoroughly established. And even if you do innovate, the hawks seated on the global piggy banks will latch on and devour you. It's vicious, cold, calculated, and heartless; ultimately, a race to the bottom - and creativity, much like everything else, seems to be running out of fuel.

Where do you think this going ? can this be a good thing ? is our fixation on capital, business, and consumption a healthy thing ? I feel like the modern world is too fixated on money, opulence and consumption and this is creating very strange dilemas, whether for the average worker, or a business minded individual. Discuss.

 

[Mark T Jones]

If by 'entrepreneurship' you mean business ownership then all the evidence is that its continuing to grow at a lively rate.

If you are referring to true entrepreneurs, who spot opportunities/trends and build on them, then there is still plenty of scope.

Your last para seems rough say you are the opposite of an entrepreneur (which socially is probably a good thing but not great for business)

 

[fisicx]

Loads of business opportunities still out there. There is a shortage of many skilled trades, IT, teaching and more. We go to farmers markets and see small business selling their products.

 

[AllUpHere]

Being an 'entrepreneur' has become a band wagon followed blindly by viewers of dragons den. You can study entrepreneurship at University these days, taught presumably by someone with more qualifications than experience in making money.

 

[NotSo]

If by 'entrepreneurship' you mean business ownership then all the evidence is that its continuing to grow at a lively rate.

If you are referring to true entrepreneurs, who spot opportunities/trends and build on them, then there is still plenty of scope.

Your last para seems rough say you are the opposite of an entrepreneur (which socially is probably a good thing but not great for business)

The lively growth is the issue, no ? since growth in new businesses = saturation = more competition = less cut, and a potential for monopolisation, and therefore harder for any newcomers to get a foothold.

There is scope for true entreprenaurship, but it is becoming increasingly difficult and others will quickly latch onto those trends and you very quickly lose the value that set you apart, whether from newcomers or the big players.

Given, it doesn't follow through for every industry, and consumables seems to be hit the worst.

I don't think there is a silver bullet to this problem, but it is an interesting point of discussion.

 

[Mark T Jones]

The lively growth is the issue, no ? since growth in new businesses = saturation = more competition = less cut, and a potential for monopolisation, and therefore harder for any newcomers to get a foothold.

There is scope for true entreprenaurship, but it is becoming increasingly difficult and others will quickly latch onto those trends and you very quickly lose the value that set you apart, whether from newcomers or the big players.

Given, it doesn't follow through for every industry, and consumables seems to be hit the worst.

I don't think there is a silver bullet to this problem, but it is an interesting point of discussion.

The issue is people thinking that entrepreneurship is something that happens, rather than something that is worked for.

Markets change, the fundamentals are the same as ever - with change comes opportunity

JD Sport buys Evans Cycles - non entrepreneur 'oh dear, there is no opportunities in bike shops, now JD Sport are making it cheap'

Entrepreneur 'wow, that will reduce service standards. Time to open a chain of bike shops offering personal service, home demonstrations etc, etc"

There are opportunities everywhere. And closed doors where you choose to place them

 

[NotSo]

The issue is people thinking that entrepreneurship is something that happens, rather than something that is worked for.

Markets change, the fundamentals are the same as ever - with change comes opportunity

JD Sport buys Evans Cycles - non entrepreneur 'oh dear, there is no opportunities in bike shops, now JD Sport are making it cheap'

Entrepreneur 'wow, that will reduce service standards. Time to open a chain of bike shops offering personal service, home demonstrations etc, etc"

There are opportunities everywhere. And closed doors where you choose to place them

Until another 2 or 3 pop up next door. There are opportunities, but the risk and cost is much higher due to monopolisation and fiercer competition. Amazon is a prime example of this phenomenon. There is also another example a few days ago of cheaper gas companies tanking when the prices spiked.

 

[Mark T Jones]

Until another 2 or 3 pop up next door. There are opportunities, but the risk and cost is much higher due to monopolisation and fiercer competition. Amazon is a prime example of this phenomenon. There is also another example a few days ago of cheaper gas companies tanking when the prices spiked.

You will find problems everywhere you look.

Or you can find opportunities.

I'll let you guess which an entrepreneur will do.

 

[InsuranceBroker]

You will find problems everywhere you look.

Or you can find opportunities.

I'll let you guess which an entrepreneur will do.

So, true. If you see more problems than opportunities, then you need to ask yourself why. Are you creating the problems or putting these under a microscope because sorting these out are beyond your ability, dedication, knowledge? If that's the case, what are you doing to address your personal deficits? If it is to just give up, then it's okay to be okay with not being something or someone but just be honest about why that is and externalizing issues or barriers to success, in my opinion, is not being honest.

 

[fisicx]

Just stop using the word ‘entrepreneur’. It’s both overused and misused and doesn’t apply to just about everyone.

It seems @NotSo you are looking in the wrong places. Away from the computer and outside the door there are hundreds of things you can do. I’ve just had a phone call from a local business that needs some help. Means I’ve got to get off my bum and leave the house but it going to be very lucrative.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Entrepreneurship, a dying art?

No instagram is full of t££ts claiming to be Entrepreneur

I have only ever been in business so I know nothing about it
and why is the writing so feckin big !

 

[InsuranceBroker]

Where do you think this going ? can this be a good thing ? is our fixation on capital, business, and consumption a healthy thing ? I feel like the modern world is too fixated on money, opulence and consumption and this is creating very strange dilemas, whether for the average worker, or a business minded individual. Discuss.

Also, would like to point out that I'm increasingly bored of those who cannot or will not succeed in certain areas, bemoaning 'fixation' on consumerism etc. The biggest socialist leaders are the richest. That is no coincidence. If I'm happy on £30k a year, £10k a year or £100k a year and I'm earning it, then it's no one else's business on where I invest my income. 'Fixated on money and opulence'....that quote makes me want to spit. It's people 'fixated' who contribute so that others don't have to....that is where the system is broken.

 

[John Hemming]

I always think people need to consider why it is that people want to get away from socialist and communist countries and live in capitalist countries. It is only the really strongly communist countries that need harsh laws to stop their population from leaving.

Being a capitalist does not mean not wanting to look after vulnerable people. It does mean, however, that the state should not be all powerful.

 

[Paul Kelly ICHYB]

JD Sport buys Evans Cycles - non entrepreneur 'oh dear, there is no opportunities in bike shops, now JD Sport are making it cheap'

Entrepreneur 'wow, that will reduce service standards. Time to open a chain of bike shops offering personal service, home demonstrations etc, etc"

Excellent view!

As stated, no one wants to open a business anymore - everyone wants to be an entrepreneur.

 

[NotSo]

You will find problems everywhere you look.

Or you can find opportunities.

I'll let you guess which an entrepreneur will do.

There is blind sighted optimism and then their is a more tempered optimism.
BTW, I am not talking about myself - we are going through a rough patch but we're marching through and adapting/cutting losses to keep the momentum going. I was simply makes an observation that there is massive saturation in quite a significant number of fields, especially with the emergence of the internet and the ease with which things can be sold/bought, and that coupled with monopolisation is giving arise to dilemmas which we should be thinking about even if we are not immediately or directly affected by it.

 

[NotSo]

Also, would like to point out that I'm increasingly bored of those who cannot or will not succeed in certain areas, bemoaning 'fixation' on consumerism etc. The biggest socialist leaders are the richest. That is no coincidence. If I'm happy on £30k a year, £10k a year or £100k a year and I'm earning it, then it's no one else's business on where I invest my income. 'Fixated on money and opulence'....that quote makes me want to spit. It's people 'fixated' who contribute so that others don't have to....that is where the system is broken.

Well, you might as well swallow it.

Surely, 100s items doing the same thing with a minor tweaks is a bit excessive ? And are we not fixated on money ? everyone I know wants the latest fad, latest car, phone, latest this and that. I guess that is the hallmark of a frugal society. The only difference is you can fork out the money, whilst other bums leech off you to finance it.

I don't know why your likes adopt a reductionist/binary approach to things - there is such a thing as nuance, and discussing and not everything is a socialism schism - it's getting quite boring.

 

[Ryan Paul]

To go back to your original point, I agree there are a lot of folk doing the same thing.
A simple example being wax melts or candle accessories. The market is saturated and it comes down to, who is the most popular on social media - as they're all selling the same thing with only a personalised sticker to differentiate. Arm chair entrepreneurs.
No originality.
I'll add that I don't have a problem with this, often it's folk looking to supplement their income but you wonder what % of people see this as a viable business.

On another note, business rates and rent on the high street is forcing folk be online only. The government have got to step in to make it easier for entrepreneurs to, literally, setup shop.

 

[AllUpHere]

There is blind sighted optimism and then their is a more tempered optimism.
BTW, I am not talking about myself - we are going through a rough patch but we're marching through and adapting/cutting losses to keep the momentum going. I was simply makes an observation that there is massive saturation in quite a significant number of fields, especially with the emergence of the internet and the ease with which things can be sold/bought, and that coupled with monopolisation is giving arise to dilemmas which we should be thinking about even if we are not immediately or directly affected by it.

Whilst it may seem as though markets are saturated, there are still so many opportunities. In fact, my biggest problem is whittling down the list of opportunities to find the stuff on which I should concentrate.
Not sure if it's useful, but I always look for promotional marketing opportunities and then work a strategic marketing plan to take advantage of the opportunity. The product or service comes last, once I know how to take advantage of the promotional opportunity.

 

[Mark T Jones]

There is blind sighted optimism and then their is a more tempered optimism.
BTW, I am not talking about myself - we are going through a rough patch but we're marching through and adapting/cutting losses to keep the momentum going. I was simply makes an observation that there is massive saturation in quite a significant number of fields, especially with the emergence of the internet and the ease with which things can be sold/bought, and that coupled with monopolisation is giving arise to dilemmas which we should be thinking about even if we are not immediately or directly affected by it.

A little back story

About 6 years ago I hated my industry

Too many competitors
Too much rate cutting
Too demanding customers
Stupid lenders etc, etc

So I gave up

Went and drove vans. I actually thought that was my future

Whilst driving I thought about stuff - lots.

The hardest pill to swallow was that the problem was me - not the competition or the lenders or the customers, me.

Once I'd accepted that, things came together slowly but surely (it actually took 18 months)

Now, in theory I'm in exactly the same business doing exactly the same thing, but my business world is completely different

Just a handful of competitors (there's room for all of us)
No silly rate wars
No chasing around after deals
And above all, an absolutely clear position in the market.

Is it them, or is it you?

 

[InsuranceBroker]

Well, you might as well swallow it.

Surely, 100s items doing the same thing with a minor tweaks is a bit excessive ? And are we not fixated on money ? everyone I know wants the latest fad, latest car, phone, latest this and that. I guess that is the hallmark of a frugal society. The only difference is you can fork out the money, whilst other bums leech off you to finance it.

I don't know why your likes adopt a reductionist/binary approach to things - there is such a thing as nuance, and discussing and not everything is a socialism schism - it's getting quite boring.

No, I really don't have to 'swallow' you or anyone else being jealous of success when they can't, or won't attempt to achieve it, or realize failure is part of succeeding and we're not entitled to everyone else's success etc and this is what I would call reductionist/binary. I'm sorry I hit a nerve. Maybe some introspection will allow you to admit to yourself why that is instead of, again, projecting. Good luck.

 

[Ozzy]

I dislike the use of the word Entrepreneur because the definition has become lost as a commodity. However the real definition in my opinion is someone who takes personal risks to create an enterprise bigger than themself to create jobs and wealth, despite adversity. A good business person just grows a good business.

The world is changing though, big organisations aren’t employing staff like they used to. Most of our clients (banks and insurance) employ self employed individuals on contract. We are heading into a micro economy, which is going to significantly change the business landscape.
As for your question of saturation, yes we are going to have a continued increasing number of businesses starting. @Mark T Jones makes the perfect differentiation above, an entrepreneur sees the opportunity no matter what the competition is doing.

 

[NotSo]

I dislike the use of the word Entrepreneur because the definition has become lost as a commodity. However the real definition in my opinion is someone who takes personal risks to create an enterprise bigger than themself to create jobs and wealth, despite adversity. A good business person just grows a good business.

The world is changing though, big organisations aren’t employing staff like they used to. Most of our clients (banks and insurance) employ self employed individuals on contract. We are heading into a micro economy, which is going to significantly change the business landscape.
As for your question of saturation, yes we are going to have a continued increasing number of businesses starting. @Mark T Jones makes the perfect differentiation above, an entrepreneur sees the opportunity no matter what the competition is doing.

Thanks for the input. What makes you think we are headed towards a micro economy ? and how do you think this will change the landscape?
I do agree with entrepreneurs seeing the opportunity but the point of the clash is really the risk associated with it. I believe it is harder dur to monopolisation, fiercer competition, more market offerings, and the internet. The market forces of say the 1960s are markedly different to those of today. There are a lot more of us, there is globalisation, the internet makes it easy to setup a standing, more people competing, more money needed to market etc etc.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

I dislike the use of the word Entrepreneur because the definition has become lost as a commodity. However the real definition in my opinion is someone who takes personal risks to create an enterprise bigger than themself to create jobs and wealth, despite adversity. A good business person just grows a good business.

The world is changing though, big organisations aren’t employing staff like they used to. Most of our clients (banks and insurance) employ self employed individuals on contract. We are heading into a micro economy, which is going to significantly change the business landscape.
As for your question of saturation, yes we are going to have a continued increasing number of businesses starting. @Mark T Jones makes the perfect differentiation above, an entrepreneur sees the opportunity no matter what the competition is doing.

I would add a very good entrepreneur takes the same risks but with everybody elses money !

 

[Ozzy]

What makes you think we are headed towards a micro economy ?

Exactly as I said early, it’s already happening because I see it and come across it every day. The statistics freely available from ONS and Companies House also confirm this, and it’s also quoted and confirmed by many others. Some may say it’s also a way to massage unemployment figures too, maybe it is.

You say there is more competition. Yep, that’s good. You say there is more of yes, yep there is more business to go round. More business needs more competition, it all balances out.

 

[Ozzy]

I would add a very good entrepreneur takes the same risks but with everybody elses money !

Not in my book they don’t.
Granted the definition of an entrepreneur has changed and everyone has their own version, but in mine they take the risks. At least the early day risks anyway.

 

[fisicx]

I do agree with entrepreneurs seeing the opportunity....

You keep using this word. People see opportunities not entrepreneurs. And you complain about the might of Amazon but what you should be doing is embracing the power of Amazon to sell on your behalf.

 

[Mark T Jones]

You keep using this word. People see opportunities not entrepreneurs. And you complain about the might of Amazon but what you should be doing is embracing the power of Amazon to sell on your behalf.

Either that or offering the type of service that Amazon can't

There was always competition
There were always muppets who would undercut and carve up the market until they go bust
There have always been predatory giants who will first try to ruin you then try to buy you out of the way

You are so blinded by your perception of the problems that you have limited yourself

 

[Peter Morris]

Is business becoming an increasing difficult endeavour to get your foot into ?

It feels like a lot of the new stuff isn't really new, but a continuum of old ideas enveloped in a different cloak (read brand, packaging). This is, at least in my mind, creating an interesting dilemma since creativity is becoming an ever elusive trait.

A quick cursory look at Amazon or your local supermarket, or the countless apps, cosmetics, skincare, or health brands asserts an endless stream of products which do mostly the same thing. Maybe it's a great thing for the consumer, but environmentally and for the entrepreneur this poses a number of key challenges.

It's almost as though business as an idea itself is being monopolised, and unless you are really able to innovate, you're in for a tough battle as the key players are thoroughly established. And even if you do innovate, the hawks seated on the global piggy banks will latch on and devour you. It's vicious, cold, calculated, and heartless; ultimately, a race to the bottom - and creativity, much like everything else, seems to be running out of fuel.

Where do you think this going ? can this be a good thing ? is our fixation on capital, business, and consumption a healthy thing ? I feel like the modern world is too fixated on money, opulence and consumption and this is creating very strange dilemas, whether for the average worker, or a business minded individual. Discuss.

It isn't dying. Entrepreneurship can never die, it's just evolving.

 

[NotSo]

A little back story

About 6 years ago I hated my industry

Too many competitors
Too much rate cutting
Too demanding customers
Stupid lenders etc, etc

So I gave up

Went and drove vans. I actually thought that was my future

Whilst driving I thought about stuff - lots.

The hardest pill to swallow was that the problem was me - not the competition or the lenders or the customers, me.

Once I'd accepted that, things came together slowly but surely (it actually took 18 months)

Now, in theory I'm in exactly the same business doing exactly the same thing, but my business world is completely different

Just a handful of competitors (there's room for all of us)
No silly rate wars
No chasing around after deals
And above all, an absolutely clear position in the market.

Is it them, or is it you?

I'm glad you sorted it out. No doubt there is a need to introspect and business ownership is almost a spiritual exercise, but does it need to be that straight forward in all cases ? It could be the biz owner, it could be the markets, it could be a combination of things. Singular anecdotes cannot be used to classify larger trends, I'm interested in the latter.

My proposition isn't that all markets are saturated, my proposition is many fields becoming increasingly saturated. Your anecdote is actually affirming my point, namely, there is need for more creativity than say you would need 40 years ago, and monopolisation & certain technologies are making it increasingly harder.

 

[Mark T Jones]

I'm glad you sorted it out. No doubt there is a need to introspect and business ownership is almost a spiritual exercise, but does it need to be that straight forward in all cases ? It could be the biz owner, it could be the markets, it could be a combination of things. Singular anecdotes cannot be used to classify larger trends, I'm interested in the latter.

My proposition isn't that all markets are saturated, my proposition is many fields becoming increasingly saturated. Your anecdote is actually affirming my point, namely, there is need for more creativity than say you would need 40 years ago, and monopolisation & certain technologies are making it increasingly harder.

I think you are desperate to find problems & excuses, so I will bow out.

 

[NotSo]

Either that or offering the type of service that Amazon can't

There was always competition
There were always muppets who would undercut and carve up the market until they go bust
There have always been predatory giants who will first try to ruin you then try to buy you out of the way

You are so blinded by your perception of the problems that you have limited yourself

Again, I don't know why you keep personalising this. This is NOT about me, this is more a philosophical discussion about where this may be going and possible consequences for the future.

Amazon is one of my the major motives behind this thread.

First, there are so many variations of the same products. If someone brings out a product that is a best seller or selling significant amounts, all other sellers will know and will thus focus on selling the same item, and if Amazon itself starts to sell that item they usually undercut the seller by a sizeable amount. In many instances, it becomes a race to the bottom.
You have alternatives like Ebay, but the market share is no way near Amazon.

Now, if I start doing something Amazon doesn't it will take a huge amount of money and time convincing them why to use us, and Amazon can always offer something similar, take us out by undercutting us, or buy us out.

I could offer a service that compliments Amazon, say tax calculation/vat handling for sellers, but then Amazon can build that into their own system and offer it as an add on service. It might not kill the business but it will take a sizeable chunk out.

When have you ever seen a company the size of Amazon? we haven't. What is happening now is these giants are consolidating their markets and completing with each other.

So you are affirming my point, it's getting harder, and requires more money, more creativity and the risk is also much higher.

 

[NickGrogan]

When have you ever seen a company the size of Amazon? we haven't.

I'd suggest you read more. There have been many companies that were bigger and more important than Amazon and there will be new companies that are bigger still.

You talk about Entrepreneurship a lot but don't seem to know what it is. What you're describing is just someone who starts a business.

You seem to be unhappy with Amazon because if you piggyback on their success, someone else might do the same or Amazon might stop you.

Amazon doesn't owe you a living, they don't owe you anything. Why shouldn't they compete with you? If they can offer the same thing cheaper or better why shouldn't they?

It's easier to start a business now than it's been for a long time.
It is cheaper to start a business now than it's ever been.
No creativity is needed.
Risk is always 100%, it just depends on who takes it.

 

[NotSo]

I'd suggest you read more. There have been many companies that were bigger and more important than Amazon and there will be new companies that are bigger still.

You talk about Entrepreneurship a lot but don't seem to know what it is. What you're describing is just someone who starts a business.

You seem to be unhappy with Amazon because if you piggyback on their success, someone else might do the same or Amazon might stop you.

Amazon doesn't owe you a living, they don't owe you anything. Why shouldn't they compete with you? If they can offer the same thing cheaper or better why shouldn't they?

It's easier to start a business now than it's been for a long time.
It is cheaper to start a business now than it's ever been.
No creativity is needed.
Risk is always 100%, it just depends on who takes it.

You've just demonstrated my point, and risk is not 100% otherwise loss would be 100%. It seems the folk on here are too practical for this discussion and everything devolves into some personalised deficiency.
Anyway, its been somewhat fruitful nonetheless and provides some food for thought.

 

[fisicx]

Everyone here simply sees this as business. It's been like this for hundreds of years. Nothing to do with being an entrepreneur. The trick to success isn't the service or product you provide - it's marketing. If you are better at marketing than your competitors you will succeed.

This is NOT about me, this is more a philosophical discussion about where this may be going and possible consequences for the future.

Don't think it is. It's just a discussion on how to succeed in business.

 

[NickGrogan]

It seems the folk on here are too practical for this discussion and everything devolves into some personalised deficiency.

Business people tend to be practical.

Rather than trying to use big words to make excuses, we're mostly interested in getting things done.

Perhaps you should look at yourself rather than blaming Amazon or the future.

 

[JEREMY HAWKE]

Not in my book they don’t.
Granted the definition of an entrepreneur has changed and everyone has their own version, but in mine they take the risks. At least the early day risks anyway.

No Boss No !

You take the risk
I take the profit

 

[SillyBill]

I think I get the OP's point. We are active in a market which is probably only £20M total for the UK and only 3 companies in it who divide that pie between ourselves. I say that as to hopefully illustrate we know these products intimately, one of very people/companies globally qualified to know them, and have manufactured them for over a century. The products are fundamentally fully developed now, have been for many years; we've all (I think) known in the latter years it is all about marketing gimmicks now as opposed to meaningful improvements. The latest is "green" or "eco" which I think is going to sustain the next bandwagon of "innovation" for a good while yet. I am not sure what comes after (green) with some household/industrial type products as efficacy vs price we've already nailed a long while back (comes down to what the punter wants to pay). And truth is we've also known green for years, just nobody was interested in it until now due to being at a price premium for the most part. I do think there is always room for some innovation but I think in certain markets it is fair to say we're now playing around the edges where the 99% gain has already been factored in. And thusly we're fighting to place our product top based on a fairly meaningless 1% additional gain. Now if marketed right that 1% gain ofc isn't meaningless...but for those of us who know our products and what we'd personally pay for, bang to buck, well, its a different matter.

 

[Dinky]

A little back story

About 6 years ago I hated my industry

Too many competitors
Too much rate cutting
Too demanding customers
Stupid lenders etc, etc

So I gave up

Went and drove vans. I actually thought that was my future

Whilst driving I thought about stuff - lots.

The hardest pill to swallow was that the problem was me - not the competition or the lenders or the customers, me.

Once I'd accepted that, things came together slowly but surely (it actually took 18 months)

Mr T Jones, I just want to say I really like your posts! I too come to realize the problem was me, not just in business but in life! 'Hardest pill to swallow' is an understatement as it's probably the biggest and most difficult eye opener in my life so far, and two years in I'm still working on that, but business wise it has helped massively! Instead of blaming on this and that, I've taken responsibility for everything and this has been a huge help! One positive is my products improved which means my customers are happier, which means my job is easier, which in turn makes me happier! Win win!

I'd agree with op that innovation is becoming more difficult as chances are that it's already been done, or if it hasn't your idea will be copied in an instant, but that doesn't mean you cannot do it better and become the market leader. Many people has business ideas but only a small percentage actual execute, and this is the biggest factor to success.

Sure your idea could fail, but that's part of the process. Sure there is saturation especially with the emergence of the internet, but the internet has created more millionaires in a shortest space of time than any other time in history. The internet is a gold mine for those whom can adapt! Like another poster touched upon, I personally find it overwhelming with the amount of opportunities there are now where you don't need much capital to give it a try. I've had products that I didn't think would really sell much, but as it wouldn't cost much for me to try, I gave it a shot and was amazed when some become my best sellers! Let the market decide what works and what doesn't... but try.