Employing in Philippines - I'll never hire in UK again.

[JamesHall174]

that assumes that those on benefits want to work and the minimum wage isn't anywhere near as much as the total benefits package some people manage to get so why would they give that up to take even less than they could get currently

 

[bdw]

Listen, I am proud to carry my basically socialist principles. I believe the privileged "haves" should bear some sort of responsibility to the "have nots". I am not inflexible on this and I would not vote for a pig with a red rosette. There are anomalies and I believe that those who play the system must be weeded out. It is for the government to do that.

I am 62 years of age. I started work when I was 15 and I have never claimed a penny in unemployment benefit. I was made redundant in 2001 at the age of 52. Because I had some savings and a severance package I was not entitled to a brass farthing in benefits.

I grant you that there seems to be something wrong with an insurance system where those who do not pay any premiums get the benefits and those who do pay get nothing. This again is for the government to sort out but the fact is that I was in no danger of starving at that time. I was also privileged to have the background, training, education and luck that allowed me to start my own business and make a success of this. Not all people are in that position.

By Bill Hicks: I was in Nashville, Tennessee. After the show I went to a Waffle House. I'm not proud of it, but I was hungry . . . I'm eating and I'm reading a book. Fine. Right? Waitress comes over to me: "What you readin' for?" I said, "Wow, I've never been asked that. Goddang it, you stumped me. Not what am I reading, but what am I reading for? I guess I read for a lot of reasons, but one of the main ones is so I don't end up being a ****ing waffle waitress!

Now that may be funny but the bottom line is that we need waffle waitresses too. We cannot all be entrepreneurs.

 

[workingnomad]

I was also privileged to have the background, training, education and luck that allowed me to start my own business and make a success of this. Not all people are in that position.

I was not in that privileged position, but I've made it, and I know a lot of others who have too from nothing.

It's called getting off your backside.

 

[gmoto]

And lets be honest the minimum wage is a joke, it is not enough for people to live on.

I'd definitely say someone getting paid full time minimum wage is easily enough to 'live' on quite reasonably, as per my calculations above. Including running a vehicle (providing you're not doing loads of miles commuting, which would be silly)

Is it enough to pay rent or a mortgage and all bills on a full house? Not SO well.
Enough to pay for a family? Not very well, again.
Enough to live in an expensive city? Definitely a lot harder.
But then, for most people are choices, though admittedly the 'family' one isn't one you can really change; still the vast majority with families on low income weren't much different when they started a family (I appreciate there are some cases where circumstances have changed massively.)

I appreciate generally it is harder to find jobs in places where the cost of living is less too.

But, for one person to live on the minimum wage, it is not only possible, but very viable to do it pretty 'comfortably'.

 

[bdw]

But, for one person to live on the minimum wage, it is not only possible, but very viable to do it pretty 'comfortably'.

You are being totally unrealistic so here's my calculation.

Someone on a minimum wage (£5.93 per hour) will take home what, about £750 per month? Let's buy that car you mentioned on a £3K/ 3 year bank loan. That will take at least £100 of this. Typical petrol and running costs would be about £200 per month on average for a Renault Clio on the web site I looked at. So that leaves our happy chappy with £450.

Realistically you are not going to get a mortgage on this so let's look for a rented flat. I had a quick look at the lower end Glasgow listings and the cheapest you are going to get a flat in a seedy part of town is about £250 per month.

So we have £200 left. What about heating, lighting and power? A very conservative estimate would be about £40 per month. That leaves us £160. That's less than £40 per week to "comfortably" feed and clothe our friend. Comfortable? I think not.

 

[gmoto]

Why the hell would you buy a £3k car when on minimum wage? Ok, the last car I bought a few years ago was £7k, but I was on well over minimum wage and used some savings/treated myself. Car before that, when I'd have been on £28k I think, cost me £700. Lasted me 3 years, then most of a year when my mum had it until the head gasket started to go. Sold for £150 I think.
£200 a month on the car? I think that counts as 'lots of miles commuting' to my mind. Get a push bike and get fit! (Or a cheap scooter, I can't stand commuting through towns in a car anyway - c90 for £300 and it'll do over 100mpg.)

Then, why would you get a flat on your own? This is going to be expensive. Even when I was on £40k in my last job, I still had a lodger to help cover the bills. (There's many other things I'd like to spend money on than paying to heat a building I take a tiny bit of space in.)

Without trying to come across too self righteous - I COULD afford a much nicer place to live as I've got money in the bank, but have recently chose a room in a house all in for £225 all bills included, and it's 0.9 of a mile commute (never did see the point in long commutes if they could be avoided). Quick look and it seems there's even cheaper in Glasgow!
I could have gone for more expensive, but decided against it for the moment. I also looked at renting a whole house/flat to myself, but with the extras of all the bills, didn't seem worth it. Again, a luxury.
If I end up buying a house around here, I expect to have either a girlfriend (like I've got the time to socialise at the moment - at least when I spend it arguing on here ), or lodgers to share the costs with.

So lets take my minimum wage chap who is, according to some random website, getting £825.21 a month take home. They are spending £225 on accommodation, leaving them with £600 to cover sustenance, transports costs, other daily stuff, then fun, savings or both.

Frankly, most people I see on much more money don't have that much money left over to spend. Why? Because they CHOOSE to have the expensive car or the family, nights out at expensive clubs, the nice TV and Apple Mac laptop etc.
I don't think it's a case of people not being able to have a comfortable life. It's a case of people WANTING more luxuries than a low income can afford.
I don't think not having them should make life uncomfortable just maybe not luxurious.

I think, going back to the prior insult against me, your new-socialist tabloid expectations for the typical person are way over the top and just why we've got many of the problems we have. I would describe them as 'unrealistic', but unfortunately they are what a lot of people expect.

 

[bdw]

Why the hell would you buy a £3k car when on minimum wage?

It wasn't my idea. :|

I'd definitely say someone getting paid full time minimum wage is easily enough to 'live' on quite reasonably, as per my calculations above. Including running a vehicle (providing you're not doing loads of miles commuting, which would be silly)

 

[bdw]

I think, going back to the prior insult against me, your new-socialist tabloid expectations for the typical person are way over the top and just why we've got many of the problems we have. I would describe them as 'unrealistic', but unfortunately they are what a lot of people expect.

I am not sure what insult you mean but I have to admit that reading the cr@p above makes me have to try hard to resist insulting you. If you think the expectations and the situation I described are "way over the top" then clearly we must agree to disagree.

We live in different worlds. You seem to want our working people to live in third world conditions like those who are doing the outsourcing that the the thread is about. That says it all for me.

.

 

[MASSEY]

I was not in that privileged position, but I've made it, and I know a lot of others who have too from nothing.

It's called getting off your backside.

'made it' .. What is that?

 

[gmoto]

It would seem we do.

In my world spending £700 on a nice clean eight year old car rather than £3000 on a newer model (often just a newer numberplate, basically) does not make conditions 'third world'.

Getting somewhere to live close to your work just seems to be common sense for 'the environment' (if you're bothered by that) and finances. I know plenty of people in pretty high paying jobs that still get a room in a shared house close to work to use in the week because their family home is a long way away. Never seen them moaning that it's like being in third world.

Not buying "The best" ready meals, but cheaper food which you have to cook your self, again does not really make it "third world". That would be trying to grow your own vegetables, carrying them to the market some miles away so that you can afford a bit of variety from you grow yourself. And that's of course presuming you're lucky enough to live somewhere vegetables DO grow.

Have you been to any third world countries? I grew up in one and have seen the conditions many people do live in.
I think your distinction between essential and luxury when looking at third world countries is incredibly naive.

And finally, specifically in regards to the people who are doing outsourcing, well yes they, you would hope, do actually live pretty well in their country because they are getting paid (at least for those that can find a good private job, rather than being ripped off by an agency for call centre work) a very good wage compared to the cost of living in that country.

 

[Emcar Vending]

I'll chuck this little story in to give you something to think about.

My daughter is a primary school teacher in a, so called, deprived area. She was trying to encourage a child to learn to read. The child asked why she had to learn to read. My daughter replied "So you can get a good job and have a nice house, a car and holidays."

The child said, "We have those anyway and my mam & dad don't work"

 

[bdw]

Have you been to any third world countries? I grew up in one and have seen the conditions many people do live in. I think your distinction between essential and luxury when looking at third world countries is incredibly naive.

Errrmm yes! I was in Sri Lanka in December last year and I have also been to India amongst other places too many to mention. I have also worked in shipyards, civil service, electrical contracting, Ministry of Defence and consumer manufacturing. I suppose that is where my naivete was born.

.

 

[bdw]

My daughter is a primary school teacher in a, so called, deprived area.

For every story like this there are hundreds about people living in poverty in the UK but they don't get the press I am afraid. Or perhaps I should say that they don't control the press like those who promulgate the stories.

.

 

[James1980]

I'll chuck this little story in to give you something to think about.

My daughter is a primary school teacher in a, so called, deprived area. She was trying to encourage a child to learn to read. The child asked why she had to learn to read. My daughter replied "So you can get a good job and have a nice house, a car and holidays."

The child said, "We have those anyway and my mam & dad don't work"

Aforementioned child will be in for a rude shock if the benefits situation changes in the next twenty years.



James

 

[gmoto]

Then I have to wonder if you've seen the deprived areas that justify the term 'third world', or actually just been to the fairly well to do areas.
There are a massive amount of people that consider having your OWN room in a house shared with a couple of others in India having 'made it'.

I am aware that plenty of people in this country DO think that it's terribly undignified - to not have a late-numberplate car or to not have that shiny kitchen and modern accomodation all to yourself.
'Part of the problem', to my mind.

The reality is that it can just about be done still, but it doesn't leave you any money for anything else - and these people also do like 'other things'.

 

[bdw]

Then I have to wonder if you've seen the deprived areas that justify the term 'third world', or actually just been to the fairly well to do areas.
There are a massive amount of people that consider having your OWN room in a house shared with a couple of others in India having 'made it'.

Yawn!

Wonder away and try to accept that you are not the only one who has witnessed poverty.

 

[bdw]

Nearly 13 million people live in poverty in the UK - that's 1 in 5 of population

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/ukpoverty/povertyfacts.html

(But then they probably deserve it, eh?)

 

[gmoto]

Thankfully plenty of others have and DO believe that there is a significant difference between 'poverty' and only having an 03 plate car!

 

[Podge]

Then I have to wonder if you've seen the deprived areas that justify the term 'third world', or actually just been to the fairly well to do areas.
There are a massive amount of people that consider having your OWN room in a house shared with a couple of others in India having 'made it'.

I am aware that plenty of people in this country DO think that it's terribly undignified - to not have a late-numberplate car or to not have that shiny kitchen and modern accomodation all to yourself.
'Part of the problem', to my mind.

The reality is that it can just about be done still, but it doesn't leave you any money for anything else - and these people also do like 'other things'.

Who are these people ?
I would, if the law allowed it, refuse any benefits and fend for myself but the law doesn't allow me to do so, so tell me what I should do ?
Should I give up my benefits and sleep in the street ?
which by the way, would negate any possibility of me finding any type of paid employent.
Maybe you would prefer it if I were to take a razor to my wrists and do away with the problem that I am once and for all ?

 

[thecolorfulco]

Has anyone else given up employing in the UK?

We run a business which involves lots of different websites, so we don't require a physical presence anywhere for it.

Hiring in the UK brings far too many problems, with workers taking <<<profanity removed by mod>>> at every opportunity. You can get people abroad for significantly less money, and in general their work ethic is a lot better. Combine that with significantly lower costs and its a win win (for the employer, not the UK tax man or the UK as a whole...)

Employees here have just gone too far. From recent threads here alone, we've got this guy who was sacked for theft, but now preparing a discrimination case because he's not married...

Then we've got this chap who bad mouthed his boss to anyone who would listen, gets fired... and out comes the "discrimination" card as he's apparently a homosexual. It seems if you're gay, non-white, disabled or of a religious minority you're untouchable in the work place, regardless of your conduct. God help you if you have a one legged gay black Muslim working for you...

I could pick out dozens of threads where the employer is being shafted here but thats not really the aim of this thread... discussing outsourcing out of the UK completely is.

We already outsource extensively, but with most people reporting directly to me or my business partner. A lot of these people are hired on a per job basis.

We're now going to go one step further and hire a full group of people working from the Philippines. They won't be working from an office, they will all be home based but working full time for us.

From a job advert placed on onlinejobs.ph yesterday afternoon (note - you need to pay $50 to sign up there), we have 125 applications already.

We are going to hire one higher end employee with a fair amount of experience, and leave them in charge of 5 or 6 other employees. So we will only interact directly with one of them and let them delegate everything else.

One really good employee will cost 20-30k php a month, with the other 5 costing between 10-15k each. So that leaves us paying 70-105k a month, which is £1000 - £1500 total, for 6 employees. All of these people will be educated to a degree level. Most of them will have better English than a typical school leaver in the UK. All of them will have a better work ethic than someone the job centre could give me.

I can only see more and more internet based jobs going that way. Give the employers all the hassle, expense and risk and combine it with uneducated lazy people who think the world owes them a living and you'll only see more and more go offshore...

Has anyone else successfully went in this direction? Or tried it and switched back?

Do you think its "right" to do this? I don't feel I owe the UK, the taxman or the general public anything, so I'll do whats right for me alone. If its a choice between hiring 6 Brits or buying a Ferrari... well I hope those people know where the nearest benefits office is...

I've only got one thing to say. Your not helping the local economy, and if you don't help towards it, it won't evolve. Ive used over seas developers before but now trying to get more local to home. Just as much problems come with outsourcing to over seas. Stick with the UK and help our economy.


Yeah I spelt economy wrong.

 

[thecolorfulco]

There is no such thing as a third world country. With every country coes problems and advanctages, but with every advantage comes more problems. For example we can afford fish and chips, but there is tax on those fish and chips, and we need to work to buy those fish and chips and if we didnt work, we would be on the street and if we are on the street we are going against some law. Even the jobless have to pay tax.

With every country comes its problems and within reason were all a third world country at the moment.

The day a country's citizens can live in there home that they bought for free, without paying council tax, tax on wages etc, can drive a car through the streets without having to pay tax on that, the day a man can say, I dont want a house, I wanna live in a caravan, on this bit of un used, un owned land by any person without having to pay some sort of tax or dis obeying some law, the day a country is more open and free, that will be a country that isnt in some sort of poverty, that wont be a third world country.

Maybe a bit extreme but I feel expresses what is really happening.

 

[gmoto]

Who are these people ?

The people working full time on minimum wage. But, I'd say most people, it's a really rather general statement, the bit you highlighted.
I thought you could refuse benefits? I've certainly not claimed any in a couple of cases when I could, but that wasn't a case of stopping an existing claim.
BUT that really wasn't my point , as I was discussing people working on minimum wage and wasn't talking about unemployed people at all in that post.


Interestingly enough, one of the developers at a previous company got the job with my company, then chose to live in a tent in a farmers field (a very nice tent with a wood burning stove in, etc, apparantly). He got the job in October. He was getting a very acceptable wage.
Why? He wanted to save up for a house deposit quite quickly.
He also drove a one year old Lexus that he'd had from new.
Maybe this is a bit more 'third world'; but I didn't see him complaining. No doubt he could have got rid of the car, but that was his choice.

thecolorfulco: ironically enough, what you're describing can much more easily be done in a lot of 'third world' countries; where it's a lot harder to enforce regulations on small businesses and individuals.

 

[bdw]

Yes, precisely. The colourfulco is right.

In the words of JFK, "Think not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country."

.

 

[crossdaz]

Then I have to wonder if you've seen the deprived areas that justify the term 'third world', or actually just been to the fairly well to do areas.
There are a massive amount of people that consider having your OWN room in a house shared with a couple of others in India having 'made it'.

I am aware that plenty of people in this country DO think that it's terribly undignified - to not have a late-numberplate car or to not have that shiny kitchen and modern accomodation all to yourself.
'Part of the problem', to my mind.

The reality is that it can just about be done still, but it doesn't leave you any money for anything else - and these people also do like 'other things'.

I accept the point you're making but I've also seen what has happened over the last 20 years. We are constantly told that our standard of living has never been better although it now takes two wages to attain when it used to be just one.

In another 20 years it might be people in the Philippines who are outsourcing work to us?

 

[gmoto]

It takes two wages to sustain a BETTER standard of living than one did previously, I'd say - go back a decent few years and most people didn't have cars, they didn't have a kitchen full of gadgets. Their one luxury item might have the single small television - I think it's fair to say that with two people earning over all the 'standard of living' is a fair bit better now - with many of these gadgets it does make it a lot easier to have two people earning, rather than one having to look after the house.
Interesting to note that in India it's often common place for middle class families to have a full time maid. And you'll see people earning a lot less than most in the UK being surprised we don't have some home help.

As communication spreads I can see the world becoming a different and more equal place. Relatively our standard of living will go down (as we are no doubt at the top of the tree if you are looking at it on the basis of numbers of people.) Certainly it will take a lot away from our economy, but hopefully will lead to a more stable world over all.

We already see the Polish have gone home for the better wages (ok, not quite, but now not nearly as good in the UK for them) and now are coming over just to buy up our cheap cars!

Do see enough cases of outsourcing to the UK, but SO FAR at least it's for out experience/skill rather than being cheap. How that will work in a changing world is another matter.

And on colourfico's previous 'stick to the UK' comment - what I got from the OP was that for his business he just couldn't afford to pay UK staff to support his business - sticking to the UK could mean not expanding, which would mean not providing more jobs on the UK side as the company gets more clients.

 

[crossdaz]

It takes two wages to sustain a BETTER standard of living than one did previously, I'd say - go back a decent few years and most people didn't have cars, they didn't have a kitchen full of gadgets.

How much of this is on credit though. I grew up in a reasonable area, we had a semi detached house, a car and holidays. Only the house was paid for with borrowed money but was way beyond what an average working man would get a mortgage for now?
Ok I never had a mobile phone or an ipad but I'm sure I wasn't missing anything there.

 

[gmoto]

Yea, the property-greed of the general public has done no favours for this country over-all. But, it's what we get for living in a densely populated country - I'm not sure there's really any escape from it now.

For mortgages, it does depend on where you are. Where I've moved to (cheap business property) in the North, it's actually pretty reasonably priced. Where I've just moved from (Reading), it's ridculous - the minimum wage definitely is very liveable on up here, while I can see it being a lot harder in Reading (though I still know plenty that have managed it and less in the past, yet still also managed to have luxuries like sports motorbikes and modified cars, etc).

However, lets say India ends up having similar standards of living to the UK - their population density is actually only slightly lower than England's (well above the UK's, but obviously there's vast bits of Scotland with very low density) - I can see india then ending up with similar problems to the UK, where people are earning enough that they expect at least to have a room to themselves, rather than shared with their family and another family.

Kevin McCloud's 'slmmuning it' in India was a good example of real poverty, not "can't afford a new car poverty" - though even then, I suspect there are a lot who are a lot worse off than those shown.

 

[crossdaz]

Kevin McCloud's 'slmmuning it' in India was a good example of real poverty, not "can't afford a new car poverty" - though even then, I suspect there are a lot who are a lot worse off than those shown.

yeah I saw that - I guess compared to that someone on benefits here is a millionaire.

 

[gmoto]

Just watched this - http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00ykxg9/The_Chinese_Are_Coming_Episode_1/
And it makes interesting (and perhaps a tad concerning) viewing.
Ok, expecting it to be a bit biased and sensationalist (though of course don't know how much so, but - Chinese who are moving to Africa to farm chickens to sell in the local markets.
Ok, I suspect the local farmers market hasn't got too much to worry about now, but overall it does show the way it's going.

 

[jedz]

It's great to know that you preferred Philippines in outsourcing your business. Offshore staff leasing or offshore staffing enables you to set up your own offshore team in the Philippines consisting of employees hired on your behalf who will work for you exclusively. The offshore staffing process works very similar to how you would hire personnel locally.


Staff leasing is better than freelance work because leased staff are permanent workers of a company and are easy to reach in case you need them. Freelancers do not have employers so they do as they please and sometimes cannot be contacted for various reasons.
[FONT=&quot][/FONT]

 

[bdw]

Oh yes, and this is a balanced opinion, eh?

.

 

[adventurelife]

Oh yes, and this is a balanced opinion, eh?

.

A balanced experienced opinion comes from those that employ people both in the UK and overseas. How may on this thread employ anyone?

Opinions are great but reality is what delivers experience.

 

[Consistency]

A balanced experienced opinion comes from those that employ people both in the UK and overseas. How may on this thread employ anyone?

Opinions are great but reality is what delivers experience.

I think it is experience what delivers reality.

 

[adventurelife]

I think it is experience what delivers reality.

both agree

 

[bdw]

Experience has shown me on this forum that if I want a recommendation or an unbiased opinion on a product or service the provider of that service is seldom where to find it.

.

 

[OldWelshGuy]

But we should always listen to and factor in all sides of any argument. a good point is made there between freelancers and full time employees.

 

[stugster]

Experience has shown me on this forum that if I want a recommendation or an unbiased opinion on a product or service the provider of that service is seldom where to find it.

.

Did I not tell you how crap our web hosting service is?

 

[bdw]

What I am saying is that if someone from a hosting company or an accountant or whatever comes on board and offers technical advice on their specialist subject then of course, I am going to listen.

If they join a thread to tell me that their hosting company or accountancy service is the best just because they say so then I turn off immediately because what I see in that situation is someone who is only there seeking a cheap marketing opportunity.

But then that is only my personal approach to this. Others may thinks that it is valid to listen to these people and they are perfectly entitled to do so.

.

 

[bdw]

I should perhaps have added that at my age and personal circumstances I don't need to seek business from forums. I get all I want using other methods.

.

 

[stugster]

What I am saying is that if someone from a hosting company or an accountant or whatever comes on board and offers technical advice on their specialist subject then of course, I am going to listen.

If they join a thread to tell me that their hosting company or accountancy service is the best just because they say so then I turn off immediately because what I see in that situation is someone who is only there seeking a cheap marketing opportunity.

But then that is only my personal approach to this. Others may thinks that it is valid to listen to these people and they are perfectly entitled to do so.

.

I think most business-savvy people do this.