Employing in Philippines - I'll never hire in UK again.

[Consistency]

I think I'm going to stand for Westminster, all those in favour say aye!!

d

Aye..............

 

[An Oasis]

Er....Aye!

 

[unet]

Another Good site to outsource to is http://easyoutsource.com/ - you dont have to pay a penny to register etc. most people are from the philippines. I have used the site several times and have had a good experience

 

[Podge]

I know I'm a lone voice on these forums but I feel I must respond again.
I have no problem with capitalism, I don't mind people being wealthy, I don't want to see employers not make a decent return on their investments and I don't want to see all the countries wealth redistributed equally throughout society.
I know employment laws are a minefield for small companies but this can't be blamed on the employee (I would think new legislation on emplyment law comes as much as a surprise to employees as it does employers particularly as most of them will come from europe.) but it is. This is just one example where the uk employees reputation is smeared with no good reason.
Lazy.....
Yes there are lazy employees but would it make sense to believe all emplyees are lazy ? No, but 99% of the posts in this forum depict them as so. I find this depressing and have come to the conclusion that something has shifted between what the employee/employer thinks is a fair days work for a fair days pay.
The drive for profit - and I'm not saying it's wrong - means you have to reduce costs as much as possible. Once you have cut pay as far as you can and you need - yes, I understand your need to stay competative - to reduce costs further the answer is to improve productivity, this will mean either reducing staff conditions or increasing employee workload. It's fairly plain to see that the more pressure the employer is under to produce a profit the more they will squeeze the worforce.
So it would appear a lot of employers are demanding too much and when the employee objects is called lazy. Again another slur on the uk employee.

I know for a lot of small businesses it is just not cost effective to employ uk workers but the question is why is it not cost effective ? Well I think I answered that question with the drive for profit, and I fully understand that the profit you're driving for is, in a lot of cases, just enough to keep your head above water. I don't doubt in an ideal world if you were less squeezed you would take some of the squeeze of your employees.

I've rambled on a bit but before I go......
I'm no bleeding heart socialist although I do believe we have to have a ballance of both capitalism and socialism.
I'm approaching 60, I've worked for 40 years in generaly low paid jobs so have no money or property put aside for a rainy day. Athough I jump through all the hoops the dwp insist I do I still find myself unemployed. I recieve £65.00 in jsa plus my rent and rates are paid plus other associated benefits.
I don't want to rely on you to keep me alive but what other choice do I have ?

 

[JohnnyCash]

I know employment laws are a minefield for small companies but this can't be blamed on the employee

The laws themselves can't be blamed on the employee, but the attempted abuse of them can. What do you think of that thread I posted in my original post about the guy caught stealing and his response is to cry discrimination?

Yes there are lazy employees but would it make sense to believe all emplyees are lazy ? No, but 99% of the posts in this forum depict them as so.

Well that is because of two main reasons - this is a forum for employers, not employees. Plus you're only likely to see people making threads when they want to vent anger, or get some advice - my designer just delivered me a brilliant piece of work this morning, on time and under budget so I don't feel the need to create a thread about it…

I know for a lot of small businesses it is just not cost effective to employ uk workers but the question is why is it not cost effective ? Well I think I answered that question with the drive for profit, and I fully understand that the profit you're driving for is, in a lot of cases, just enough to keep your head above water. I don't doubt in an ideal world if you were less squeezed you would take some of the squeeze of your employees.

My shopping site is very profitable, but I can grow it better by spending money promoting the site rather than flushing the money down the toilet - which is what I'm doing if I hire in UK. In this case (working updating a website, no physical product) a Filipino will work harder than you, for a fraction of the money. Thats why there is no jobs for you. If they steal something and I fire them, they won't cry discrimination. If you done the same (as an example) you very well might.

 

[crossdaz]

I don't want to rely on you to keep me alive but what other choice do I have ?

Not much. I agree with a lot of what you say but the world has changed and if people are able to outsource work to places where people work for near to nothing there isn't much you can do, they are going to do it and have been for a long time.

There isn't a perfect answer - some people will say everyone should be a freelancer and compete on even terms. I worked in the construction industry for 20 years and know all too well what a road to hell that idea is.

Some people say there is too much regulation and the balance of power is in favour of the employee. This may be so to an extent but not lets forget why we had the benefits and advantages in the first place - it wasn't because of a free market that's for sure.

 

[Consistency]

I know employment laws are a minefield for small companies but this can't be blamed on the employee (I would think new legislation on emplyment law comes as much as a surprise to employees as it does employers particularly as most of them will come from europe.) but it is.


So it would appear a lot of employers are demanding too much and when the employee objects is called lazy. Again another slur on the uk employee.

I know for a lot of small businesses it is just not cost effective to employ uk workers but the question is why is it not cost effective ?

I've rambled on a bit but before I go......
I'm no bleeding heart socialist although I do believe we have to have a ballance of both capitalism and socialism.
I'm approaching 60, I've worked for 40 years in generaly low paid jobs so have no money or property put aside for a rainy day. Athough I jump through all the hoops the dwp insist I do I still find myself unemployed. I recieve £65.00 in jsa plus my rent and rates are paid plus other associated benefits.
I don't want to rely on you to keep me alive but what other choice do I have ?

It is hard to have the motivation to employ UK employees for several reasons, one of them being all the free money that they are entitled to such as holiday pay, notice periods when they leave etc. An employer has to pay taxes on all of this. It is worth noting as an employee that the TRUE COST of employing someone is very much higher than what the employee takes home in his wage packet.

I have always said that there are some marvellous employees who simply want to work for their wage but the unions have demanded this and that and there are all the nonsenses of risk assessments and so on and so forth. In one that we did recently a serious question was "Do we provide suntan lotion for workers, who work outside so they do not burn". It is sheer madness. Employees to a big degree have caused this with their lies and taking every little loophole to their advantage. I have always said that there are many employees who are losing out because of the ones that ruin it.

When somoeone has a business and has started from scratch, worked hard, been firm but fair and almost lose that business, that livelihood, because of employees then that is only when they will gather understanding of the harsh realities of being shafted by UK employees.

Try as we might to give the next employee a chance and not taint him with the same brush that the lost one wet all over, we do get tired when that employee turns out the same.

Both employees and employers suffer in all of this.

 

[3 MORE YEARS]

Being a service business...in the b2b market, most of our clients expect Brits, but the problem is that the demands of us "locals" is so high both in terms of wages and other expectations, that we often price ourselves out of the market. Higher wages mean you will end up passing that on to the client. The clients wants cheap as possible but wants local people. I could even higher wages if some people turned up to work. I put an ad up last week, for an IT job, out of roughly 100 people, I only saw 3 people who were "locals". The one local guy was a big dissapointment...he lost it on his first day. The guy who got the job...had bad English...but he was really keen, he chased me for the job. It showed that he wanted it. He showed determination. So I gave him a chance...so far so good. Time will tell.

 

[RBS]

I do agree on Philippines - very smart, polite, friendly people. Company I work for, outsource IT support to Philippines(Manila) - I talk to them every day on the phone sorting out our IT problems and logging faults - super effiecient and great guys there. Also, they speak perfect English.

 

[seanheather]

I'm afraid I'll have to disagree with you.
Yes in the short term it looks like it makes perfect sense but by saving money now (and that's what you're doing it for no matter what you say to the contrary) you are storing up trouble for the future, that is of course if you don't mind following your work out of the country.
For every job that get's outsourced that's another one added to the dole queue, how many until the benefit bill becomes to big and taxes have to be raised to supprt it ?
Take you as an example 6 for the price of one, thats 6 people you have taken out of the economy as well as adding £62.5k to the anual benefit bill, how long do you think that can be sustained ?
We will never again have a sizeable industrial workforce, we have turned into a nation of predominantly service providers with employers unwilling to provide us with employment, How is that sustainable ?
And let us once and for all blow this myth out of the water that all british employees are lazy exploitative scum. There are as many tribunal cases win as fail so it's no good just blaming the employee you are both as bad as each other, and I mean collective employers and not you personaly.
I'm not blind to your view but there was a time when most people were happy to make a living, now, it seems for a lot of people that's not quite enough.
Yes, for your business what you are doing makes sound economic sense and is good business practice and I'm not sure if I were in your position I wouldn't do exactly the same thing, however with this happening I don't think the long term future looks good for the country as a whole.

Yes but why on earth should the employers disregard the fact that they'll probably get sub-standard employees when hiring from the UK....It's the individuals responsibility to work hard to prevent the stigma in the first place.

I would say the majority of 16 - 24 year old's that are not working in the profession they want for a very long term career then you can probably bet they treat it very much as a 9 - 5, clock in, clock out... ''I don't care because it's 2 minutes past 5 and I'm going home'' attitude. You see it all the time, as employers and customers.

Example, I went into PC World to buy a laptop last year, the employee was leaning up against the counter talking to his colleague. I was in there for around 10 minutes, it was not very busy at all...He did not even acknowledge me, or offer to help, so I left and spent my money elsewhere. Why should I do his job for him because he was too damn lazy and un-interested?

Now I know not all people are like this and it was probably an isolated incident, but say the OP was the owner of a computer shop and because of his employee, they lost out on a quick sale of about £400 due to lack of acknowledgment and help. I sure as hell would prefer to minimize that risk buy employing outside the UK where the chances of that type of thing occurring is lower.

 

[crossdaz]

Now I know not all people are like this and it was probably an isolated incident, but say the OP was the owner of a computer shop and because of his employee, they lost out on a quick sale of about £400 due to lack of acknowledgment and help. I sure as hell would prefer to minimize that risk buy employing outside the UK where the chances of that type of thing occurring is lower.

It was a business that employed this person, a highly regarded and very valuable one. Are you so certain the problem lies exclusively with the person you encountered?

The OP isn't a business with a 200 big retail sheds and overheads - lets be clear of the facts before we start jumping on bandwagons?

 

[RBS]

http://easyoutsource.com/jobs/vitual-assistant-for-link-building-in-forums/

2$/h and there is list of people who applied...

Title: web developer (wordpress, drupal, joomla, php) , seo, VA, article writer, marketing assistant. keyword search expert Hourly Rate: $4.00 per hour

Title: Web and Graphics Artist Hourly Rate: $5.00 per hour

Title: SEOLinkbuilder/AutoCAD Drafter/SketchUP Designer Hourly Rate: $2.00 per hour
CAD guy in our company gets £27/h.....

 

[LinkBright Media]

In a previous business, I hired 2 staff based in India and I used to give them tasks and chat with them via Skype. I think it worked quite well but managing them took a lot of time as everything needed explaining to the nth degree. If you're going for a bigger team, I do like the idea of hiring one higher qualified person to manage the rest. I can't believe how low the rates are for the Philippines! These are WAY lower than India. I think I might give this a try for some regular admin tasks - thanks for the site link!

 

[JohnnyCash]

The wages are lower and the quality of work is better, along with their language skills. I'll never understand why anyone outsources to India any more...

I don't think it will take any longer than an hour a day dealing with one person who in turn will deal with the rest of them.

I've hired someone to start Monday for a trial for 22,000 per month (£310). And that is me paying a fair bit over the going rate, you can get people for a lot less if you want.

He's a qualified nurse, but been working online for various Western companies and has experience managing teams etc so he looks well suited to this.

Its amazing some of the applications you see - I was looking over the CV's of qualified teachers and accountants and for the last 6-12 months they've been spamming forums and writing blog comments for UK and USA companies.

We had more than 200 applicants in 3 days on this latest job.

 

[MASSEY]

I dont blame people for out sourcing. Im getting irritated with the uk myself. It would be interesting to see how good the filipino seo's are. I might post a job on there, the low hourly rates make me skepvicle though.

 

[crossdaz]

I dont blame people for out sourcing. Im getting irritated with the uk myself. It would be interesting to see how good the filipino seo's are. I might post a job on there, the low hourly rates make me skepvicle though.

If you hire someone in the UK then in the vast majority of cases they are just doing this and charging you a premium.

 

[JohnnyCash]

I dont blame people for out sourcing. Im getting irritated with the uk myself. It would be interesting to see how good the filipino seo's are. I might post a job on there, the low hourly rates make me skepvicle though.

I expect if you just hire someone then ask them to "do the seo on yourdomain.com" they're going to make a complete mess of it.

However if you plan out whats to happen and break it down into individual tasks that are easy to do on their own, it will work well.

All the skill (and the profit) of seo comes from the planning and preparation stages which you should be doing yourself. After that its just a series of manual, repetitive tasks that are easily outsourced. Work out exactly how many links you need of whatever type, then send the Filipinos out to find them for you.

 

[Psl]

If you hire someone in the UK then in the vast majority of cases they are just doing this and charging you a premium.

That thought was running through my mind as I read this very informative thread.

 

[gmoto]

A very interesting thread.
Been having a bit of a google around, but can anyone offer any personal recommendations for 'guides' to outsourcing in the Philippines etc?

I have worked with people/teams in India and Pakistan and in the majority of cases have found that while the work is good, as others have noted the effort needed to get the desired results isn't.

Now that I'm starting a (non-IT) business myself I'm looking to get some website development done.
I had hoped to do it myself, as I can handle a bit of PHP/mysql, but the reality is that it's unlikely I'll have the time needed any time soon.
From my previous experiences/research with this sort of outsourcing (and some similar things involving East European companies) I had been put off it as it seemed like there'd be way too much chasing.

Was going to maybe look at some talented uni students and similar that I know in the UK, as no way I can justify the normal sort of rates for a British contractor/firm. However wasn't sure if I'd be able to make that work, so this sort of thing seems ideal - at these sort of rates I would hope (if all goes well), that I could probably afford to employ someone pretty much full time, which would be a decent benefit to my plans.

 

[LinkBright Media]

I expect if you just hire someone then ask them to "do the seo on yourdomain.com" they're going to make a complete mess of it.

However if you plan out whats to happen and break it down into individual tasks that are easy to do on their own, it will work well.

I do believe this is the key to the success of any job you outsource. Provide very detailed instructions and you can't really go wrong.

I guess the uncertainty starts when you're trying to hire a professional (SEO consultant or other) and you are looking for guidance from them rather than the other way round.

 

[LinkBright Media]

An interesting bit of feedback from my other half here, who (remotely) managed a team of technical support staff in Manila, Philippines when he worked in a company offering services similar to IBM. He says the team members had an excellent standard of English, they are dedicated and often think outside the box and use their own initiative (which I found was acutely lacking in ALL the full time and freelance Indian staff I have dealt with in the past). He gave me the thumbs up for giving this a try

 

[seanheather]

It was a business that employed this person, a highly regarded and very valuable one. Are you so certain the problem lies exclusively with the person you encountered?

The OP isn't a business with a 200 big retail sheds and overheads - lets be clear of the facts before we start jumping on bandwagons?

I am aware of that, but the key principles are just the same whether you have a multi million pound profit business or not. It was only an example.

 

[crossdaz]

I am aware of that, but the key principles are just the same whether you have a multi million pound profit business or not. It was only an example.

I know what you're saying but maybe pc world wasn't a great example. They need to employ better people not cheaper people.

 

[bdw]

It does not take a top economist to realise that when we start moving jobs abroad employment in the UK suffers (think banking, insurance and call centres) as does our economy and hence your business. It really is quite simple. Your customers need money to spend on your products. If all of the UK jobs that have been taken out of the UK were returned we would be in clover.

What would be interesting is to allow employees to "opt out" of the protection of maternity leave, sick pay, holidays, minimum wage etc. rather like they do with minimum working hours legislation, and let them make the choice whether they want to work for a company who offers those benefits or for someone who doesn't.

Interesting? More like a doomsday scenario for employees. This would create an employee underclass and the people who would suffer most would be those who were so desperate for a job they would sell their rights (like the immigrants currently in the UK).

I am sorry but reading this thread I can't help but get the picture of many you rubbing your hands in glee at this prospect and it is not a nice picture. I agree that there is a problem but it is not a people problem. It is a government (and management) problem so perhaps you should be directing your ire at those who caused it.

I am commenting on this as someone who has worked in the UK since 1964 and never been unemployed. I have also been self employed since 2001. I have as they say, had a good look around and I have seen what many employers will do when they are allowed to get away with it, like knowingly killing people. We don't want to get back to that do we?

The list below includes just a few examples of what happens in our society with employee rights and minimum wage. Think what it would be like without it (and note that Filipinos are one of the largest groups to be exploited, not just here but Worldwide).

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/8171318.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7150468.stm
http://www.december18.net/article/u...t-and-exploitation-migrant-and-agency-workers
http://www.foodproductiondaily.com/Quality-Safety/Exploited-workers-found-at-major-UK-food-firms
http://www.heraldscotland.com/tesco-urged-to-end-worker-exploitation-1.913705
http://www.building.co.uk/news/whit...e-foreign-worker-exploitation/3037172.article

So if you want circumvent human and employee rights I suggest that you get in touch with some of these people. they will show you how it's done.

.

 

[BizGurl]

From what I'm reading on this thread, the general feeling is that Filipino's are merely more then cheap production machines to be used to make a quick buck or two.

 

[DesignerNick]

A Philipino person I spoke to was qualified in law. They didn't want to work in law as it meant 70 hours a week so they were happy to work 35 hours a week for only slightly less money then if they worked 70 hours a week as a lawyer and they didn't have to leave their house.

They were always ready to help and they felt lucky to have the job. It was a pleasure to work with them.

It isn't really exploitation is it?

 

[MASSEY]

From what I'm reading on this thread, the general feeling is that Filipino's are merely more then cheap production machines to be used to make a quick buck or two.

They make out of the deal to dont they. Cost of living is to high here. Im lucky no one can out source my services.

 

[luckyg]

Very interesting thread. I let my only full time staff member go after repeated warnings for using facebook too much and not doing his job as he was on FB too much. Since then I have been unable to find the right candidate who I feel will do the job right.

Do you think outsourcing to Phillipines could work for the customer service phone part of an online business? Taking queries, giving profuct advice etc?

Accents might put UK customers off?

Maybe it is only usable for admin and IT work?

 

[RadiusBPO]

Exact SD. Some of my guys were working 50-60-70-80 hours per week for $0.50-0.70 per hour. They now earn twice as much for half the work and get to work whenever they want.

 

[JohnnyCash]

From what I'm reading on this thread, the general feeling is that Filipino's are merely more then cheap production machines to be used to make a quick buck or two.

Is that not what all employees are?

 

[RadiusBPO]

Very interesting thread. I let my only full time staff member go after repeated warnings for using facebook too much and not doing his job as he was on FB too much. Since then I have been unable to find the right candidate who I feel will do the job right.

Do you think outsourcing to Phillipines could work for the customer service phone part of an online business? Taking queries, giving profuct advice etc?

Accents might put UK customers off?

You have to spend a bit more and look harder (and I wish I still had the contact) but there is a school in PH somewhere which teaches the english accent (most have US accents) and they are used by UK companies.

Would an American accent put your customers off?

 

[luckyg]

You have to spend a bit more and look harder (and I wish I still had the contact) but there is a school in PH somewhere which teaches the english accent (most have US accents) and they are used by UK companies.

Would an American accent put your customers off?

Yes I think it would. I feel with an online business customer wants reassurance they are buying from UK business and the UK accent will reassure them.

If you remember the contact I would be grateful for it. This thread has really got me thinking!

 

[gmoto]

From what I'm reading on this thread, the general feeling is that Filipino's are merely more then cheap production machines to be used to make a quick buck or two.

My thought was with that for this I could afford to employ someone full time, hopefully ongoing; rather than getting someone that has less qualifications to work for less time because they need more money per hour just to keep a roof over their heads.

I was born in Botswana, though only lived there for the first four months of my life and haven't returned to that country since. However I've always had a pipe dream of building a manufacturing plant, or whatever there - cheap labour that for a very small wage (for the UK) would actually be made quite wealthy by local cost of living standards. Also, I feel that sort of thing would do a hell of a lot more than a lot of 'charities' manage.

 

[LinkBright Media]

However I've always had a pipe dream of building a manufacturing plant, or whatever there - cheap labour that for a very small wage (for the UK) would actually be made quite wealthy by local cost of living standards. Also, I feel that sort of thing would do a hell of a lot more than a lot of 'charities' manage.

You're absolutely right. Charitable donations only work short term. To create long term results you have to stimulate the local economy with new business. You only have to look at the positive effects of Kiva.org to see this works.

 

[Consistency]

From what I'm reading on this thread, the general feeling is that Filipino's are merely more then cheap production machines to be used to make a quick buck or two.

Not at all, we would have every respect for them and pay a fair wage for a fair days work but within the affordability of the business. This is not an option open to us but I fully understand.

It is not slave labour at all but it is cheaper work where we do not have to wipe their backsides as they can do this themselves without the nanny state suing us because they wiped it on company premises and suffered arm ache during the process. Slight exagerration but only slight.

We as employers are tired of all the red tape and with holiday pay, notice pay i.e. money not worked for, the government do not care less as they still get all the taxes from it. It is not a tax free payment and so the money that the employee gets in his pocket, the true cost of this free money to them is substantially higher. It is the business that makes a direct loss.

One of the joys of working for a small business used to be that the employees and employers bonded, got to know each other, worked together and had a friendship and mutual respect. This balance is no more and a new wave of behaviour seems to have taken over.

Employees know they have so many rights and so know that even if they do wrong they can still win a tribunal if the employer has not followed a section of a technicality. The employer knows that a smaller business has a lot of responsibility and that employer may be granted a bit more freedom and goodwill. Therefore there is more to take the pee out of.

An employee should therefore start at the bottom and earn a respect that works both ways as there are some marvellous employees out there, I know because I have one and he is worth his weight. He is an absolute credit and when we have employed new people, and they have been no good, it is his hard work that has carried us through. The good employees are not being given the chances as well now because even employers who were once patriotic and were adamant they would never employ out of their own country, are now throwing that sense of loyalty away because the employee mentality is too often being thrown back in the employers face.

It is a sad state indeed, as both employee and employers lose out. When a small business has a good employee, it can work so well. Having a laugh and bouncing off each other, looking out for each other, a sense of belonging, pride, caring is all good to a small business and opens up the business to expansion but because of laws, and sneaky employees and employers being considered the big bad bosses, good employers are forever watching their back when they should be watching their business.

Tribunals from what I have read have increased by 56% last year. I do not think there are 56% more bad bosses.

 

[iArtist]

Has anyone else given up employing in the UK?

We run a business which involves lots of different websites, so we don't require a physical presence anywhere for it.

Hiring in the UK brings far too many problems, with workers taking <<<profanity removed by mod>>> at every opportunity. You can get people abroad for significantly less money, and in general their work ethic is a lot better. Combine that with significantly lower costs and its a win win (for the employer, not the UK tax man or the UK as a whole...)

I guess this cartoon says it all

Sadly this is what we're becoming known for, vast differences and inconsitencies with prices, lazy workers and...well...poor quality service providers. I don't believe this is TRUE, but it is a belief that is gaining hold.

 

[bdw]

Sorry, perhaps it's just me but I don't think that cartoon is funny at all and you have already posted it elsewhere.

Tribunals from what I have read have increased by 56% last year. I do not think there are 56% more bad bosses.

Well, anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for forming a different opinion.

.

 

[iArtist]

Sorry, perhaps it's just me but I don't think that cartoon is funny at all and you have already posted it elsewhere.

Well, anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for forming a different opinion.

.

You don't have to think it's funny, it's a statement not a 'joke'.

Meanwhile on the subject of repetiveness...aren't you always complaining about what forum members do? That is repetitive and dull..

 

[workingnomad]

I have started using odesk and have been very impressed with Philopinos so far.

 

[realmaverick]

The downside, is you never get to work as a proper team. I'm personally in a similar position. But I would like eventually move to an office, and have everybody work together, all buzzing off one another and creating excitement of the projects.