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Eco2You
BUT - I'm not getting into an argument - this thread is too important
Yes best get back to arguing your case not arguing with me, especially when the yes vote is falling.
Chris Kaday
Chris, how does 13 votes for and 13 votes against, come anywhere near falling?
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Had a short break in Anglesey last week the Welsh could not give a stuff about eco & recycling. Made me wonder... England is obsessed with it, Scotland? Ireland? If yes for the later what is happening in Wales?
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RayB
BUT - I'm not getting into an argument - this thread is too important
Yes best get back to arguing your case not arguing with me, especially when the yes vote is falling.
Chris Kaday
Chris, I think you are an advocate of positive thought/mentoring etc.
Do you think I am going to give up on this debate?
I am really not meaning to have a pop at you - heck I respect you - but I'm entitled to say/think you called it wrong this time (with your input, not the outcome) - regardless of the majority feeling on this debate (either way)
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Chris Kaday
Simple it is a minority actually in favour when the don't cares are taken into account.
Chris Kaday - fellow of the market research society! (sorry could not resist that - off to bed now!)
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RayB
Keith - your views are always bang on and to the point (especially where tea is concerned) - and I agree people will not pay extra.
But I have built an eco business where the extra cost is ZERO - just by making it my core objective.
Now - we cant all do that - it depends on our line of work. BUT, this sort of stuff has an audience in samll business - and I'd simply rather it was here
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Eco2You
Don't care, means don't care, if there was a feeling against it, they would vote no.
Simple.
fellow of marketing should get to know more about the relevance of statistical 0's - don't cares or on the Likert Scale 1- 5 a 3........
Null and void, not counted etc.
I'd love to see some market reasearch or EBP that counts the 3 on the Likert Scale/ dont care's.
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lewey
There seems to be 2 parts to the idea of having a separate 'eco' forum section that are not properly being treated separately.
- a separate part for eco style businesses - for which my opinion is no, I don't see enough different that they require any other special are. i.e there still have the same marketing, or seo questions as any other business segment.
- 'Eco Issues' that can (and should) be relevant to all businesses - for which I am more inclined to think yes, in order to promote their debate, although do agree that making business 'greener' in its operations should be part of mainstream thinking. Where I am not sure, is for example if someone wants to know how which are the most energy efficient lightbulbs, and where to buy them in bulk - is that a question for a seperate area? or to sit nicely in the existing general business area?
- a separate part for eco style businesses - for which my opinion is no, I don't see enough different that they require any other special are. i.e there still have the same marketing, or seo questions as any other business segment.
- 'Eco Issues' that can (and should) be relevant to all businesses - for which I am more inclined to think yes, in order to promote their debate, although do agree that making business 'greener' in its operations should be part of mainstream thinking. Where I am not sure, is for example if someone wants to know how which are the most energy efficient lightbulbs, and where to buy them in bulk - is that a question for a seperate area? or to sit nicely in the existing general business area?
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RayB
Great post, and had got me thinking, then agreeing with you. IF, we had a "green room" it should be for any business needing/wanting to solve an eco problem rather than just for those providing green services.
Good call!
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Very real, very rational, very needed.
Can I ask you guys to spend 5 mins looking at the link below?
It requires some attention, there are no gimmicks, no bare breasted ladies, just a guy being rational about our very real future.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDsIFspVzfI
The message is simple.
An 'eco' presence here will only accomplish good things, so why not stick a label on it, as the way we are all heading at the moment, its a subject that could consume our lives utterly in the very near future.
I voted for yes, (not just for eco businessess tho, but for eco conscious questions that will ultimately effect us all)
spread the word.
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RayB
From what I hear most green rooms contain great legs
Not sure that will help the debate though
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Depends what the green room offers as sustenance.....
Quadruples in my experience
Think this would be a progressive step, something to commend & encourage.
Quadruples in my experience
Think this would be a progressive step, something to commend & encourage.
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RayB
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What devastation? Have you ever seen any first-hand? Is Britain being devastated? Can we believe anything we see on TV? Sorry, but scare-mongering language doesn't justify a new forum category - or a business case for that matter.
I'm sorry, but that's pure invention on your part and a load of old phooey. Ethics has nothing to do with it, and I actually find your suggestion rather distasteful. Are you implying that companies that are not eco-friendly are less ethical? I'll bet you there are just as many frauds in eco-businesses as in any other.
I voted 'No' - sorry Ray. There are plenty of other types of business that could warrant their own forum too. I don't see what benefit an eco-business section would bring - although I do wish you well with your own venture. I'm not against eco-friendly businesses; far from it. I just don't see why they warrant their own section.
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Eco2You
I've witnessed plenty first hand, from raw sewage on beaches, to seasonal changes, thankfully I've not been caught up in anything major.
The TV also has people saying that this is just part of nature's cycle, that the earth does heat and cool, that people are only interested in keeping the "green myth" going for money.
Have a look around you, not just directly, but think for a second what we do now as a world compared to say15 or 20 years ago ( excluding the storms of 87
Oh and Chernobyl, don't let me mix this topic up too much though, I mean after all we were the first with Calder Hall... Mind you after all the cancer and death it seems its now becoming some kind of nature reserve.
Some things seem have got better, the smog in London in the 50's and 60's was pretty lethal apperently, still not as lethal as stockpiles of used Nuclear Fuel rods, but there you go.
There's a good probabilty that I may go off on a tangent and rant about all sorts now. Best I just stop my mumbling there.
Sorry
On a sidenote, I was out on a boat in Fowey, and we saw hay bales being lifted by the wind, very odd, even stranger when it started to rain down. It was one of those mini Typhoons. Not exactly anything to do with the main topic, but interesting to see.
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And this has been the case from time immemorial. When do you think Crapper invented the modern toilet?
Anyway, I don't want to distract from Ray's worthy goal. The case needs to be made based on the business benefits.
Funny you should mention this. I thoroughly enjoy surreal moments like that. It happens a lot when you fly, and I can recall many memorable moments. Thanks for mentioning it.
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Oh come now Chris, for petes sake, anyone can see that Ray's response was a reasonable one. Where on earth was he going off the deep end?
Why am I chiming in on this? As you know, we recently disagreed on several points, however, just because someone does not agree with everything you say Chris, does not mean that all their comments come from a mad or angry perspective.
What is wrong with a bit of passionate discussion?
This habit of bandying everyone as having a temperament based on anger simply because they do not agree with you is, well, just not on.
That's a rather childish response, no offense.
Why not have a section of the forum for eco businesses? What possible harm can be caused by having this section? And with the split being almost exactly 50/50, it certainly looks like there could be a call for it. Why not trial run the idea for four weeks and see how it goes?
Personally, I think it's a great idea that should be adopted. We need more diverse discussions upon subjects that matter to us, rather than this old British stiff upper lip mentality.
Thought I better include an emoticon before one gets the wrong end of the stick. Here's another one, just for good measure.
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You are being far too 'English'! There's nothing to apologise for; if it was the case, I'd be apologising all the time at these forums! We're adults having a reasoned discussion.
It's half past midnight here, and I'm still participating in a forum discussion. Sad, isn't it.
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Eco2You
What was the average life expectancy at that point in time?
Poor sanitation is a problem that the 3rd world have to still endure.
One word for you, and then I'm shutting up.
Dysentery
More to the point, being a kid, living on the beaches during the summer, not great when your having all sorts washed directly back into where your swimming.
It's where it all started for me.
It's 5.31 am here, and your welcome, debate is what makes forums great.
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I voted not fussed, as their are not many eco posts anyway, but if there was a eco forum, it could attract some, or it may not.. Either way, the posts would end up somewhere, be it in a eco forum or not, so not fussed either way.
What I am bothered about is so called eco friendly firms that are not really eco friendly, like some firms that instead of passing on old equipment that is still perfectly salvagable (ok a little data cleaning may be needed, and a quick electrical safety check) to a charity, or those who would benefit from it they would rather it was actually recycled, and thats not exactly efficient to scrap something and only recover a small fraction of usuable stuff, when the whole thing could continue a useful life.
What I am bothered about is so called eco friendly firms that are not really eco friendly, like some firms that instead of passing on old equipment that is still perfectly salvagable (ok a little data cleaning may be needed, and a quick electrical safety check) to a charity, or those who would benefit from it they would rather it was actually recycled, and thats not exactly efficient to scrap something and only recover a small fraction of usuable stuff, when the whole thing could continue a useful life.
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One of the images that still haunts me is of a family in Mumbai living in the median of a major highway. About six lanes of traffic were travelling in each direction while a mother was sitting and her two boys were jumping in the 2-foot wide median while buses and lorries sped past. The boys were naked and covered in their own filth: no sanitation whatsoever. Plus, the quality of air being breathed by these young souls must have been abysmal.
It's one of those images that makes you want to change the world - and I have every intention of doing my part. And I have great respect for those who have the same motive when spawning eco-friendly businesses. First and foremost, though, they must be viable businesses, not eco-friendly.
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This subject has me riled up now.
And, as a former member of the Community Action Network CAN - social entrepreneurs, I'm going to stick my neck out here.
Ok, we needn't call it an Eco section whatever, how about a section dedicated to all Green subjects, for I do believe that there is a distinction between city slickers business, and business in the countryside of this great country of ours.
Too often and I think this forum falls into this trap somewhat, the assumption is made that the only real business that goes on, is business associated with cities and towns, whilst issues affecting businesses in the countryside get waylaid, and pushed to one side.
Business isn't just about advertising and media companies, tv production, the latest graphic design or any number of new fangled business enterprises that are associated primarily with city and town life, connecting the people therein.
There should too be a place to discuss issues affecting business out in the country, and naturally, I don't care what townies might say, people that live in the countryside usually have a lot more knowledge about the guardianship of the countryside and the importance of striking a balance with mother nature.
Why should eco businesses and countryside businesses, individuals be socially excluded from talking about their understanding of matters, that pertain to real care for the environment? It stands to reason, that people living in the country are going to be more knowledgeable upon these matters than joe public living in the cities, where you are more prone to be disassociated from the natural cycle of things.
Why should we not have our voices counted too? Why should our opinions get soaked up and diluted amongst all the average city business talk? Why can we not have our voices heard in our very own section of the forum? Is it for some city lad to tell the farmer when his crops should be planted, when he has no real understanding of the natural cycles of the seasons?
I think there is a massive divide between the knowledge of business associated with townies and city dwellers, and those that live 'closer' to the land. We should be able to have a space more pertinent to our needs, where we can discuss issues that are very important to us. Yes, I hear you cry, your calling for separation Mark. You bet your ass I am. City business people have no clue generally upon the many factors associated with business in England's rural communities, where the whole pace of life is different, and the way one conducts business generally, is so very different to how it is conducted in the major conurbations.
No, I'm not saying that all of you that live in cities do not have the faintest clue what you are talking about, when it comes to eco-conscious matters pertaining to business. Sure you do have insights, but this one model fits all mentality only serves to exclude, and, as pointed out above, dilutes the very real issues amongst a massive scattering of posts, provided by the majority that live in towns and cities. People with a more eco conscious way of life should have their own part of the forum, to freely discuss matters upon which, they are highly passionate about. We're tired of being sidelined, cast aside, told our opinions do not really matter. Everything coming down to quotas and statistics of pen pushers in concrete towers.
If this community wants to be socially inclusive to all forms of business, then it needs to adopt a position that isn't so narrowminded, but rather provides a broader spectrum for specialised discussions.
Feel free to discuss.
I'm going to bed for three hours. Will read the rants when I wake up.
And, as a former member of the Community Action Network CAN - social entrepreneurs, I'm going to stick my neck out here.
Ok, we needn't call it an Eco section whatever, how about a section dedicated to all Green subjects, for I do believe that there is a distinction between city slickers business, and business in the countryside of this great country of ours.
Too often and I think this forum falls into this trap somewhat, the assumption is made that the only real business that goes on, is business associated with cities and towns, whilst issues affecting businesses in the countryside get waylaid, and pushed to one side.
Business isn't just about advertising and media companies, tv production, the latest graphic design or any number of new fangled business enterprises that are associated primarily with city and town life, connecting the people therein.
There should too be a place to discuss issues affecting business out in the country, and naturally, I don't care what townies might say, people that live in the countryside usually have a lot more knowledge about the guardianship of the countryside and the importance of striking a balance with mother nature.
Why should eco businesses and countryside businesses, individuals be socially excluded from talking about their understanding of matters, that pertain to real care for the environment? It stands to reason, that people living in the country are going to be more knowledgeable upon these matters than joe public living in the cities, where you are more prone to be disassociated from the natural cycle of things.
Why should we not have our voices counted too? Why should our opinions get soaked up and diluted amongst all the average city business talk? Why can we not have our voices heard in our very own section of the forum? Is it for some city lad to tell the farmer when his crops should be planted, when he has no real understanding of the natural cycles of the seasons?
I think there is a massive divide between the knowledge of business associated with townies and city dwellers, and those that live 'closer' to the land. We should be able to have a space more pertinent to our needs, where we can discuss issues that are very important to us. Yes, I hear you cry, your calling for separation Mark. You bet your ass I am. City business people have no clue generally upon the many factors associated with business in England's rural communities, where the whole pace of life is different, and the way one conducts business generally, is so very different to how it is conducted in the major conurbations.
No, I'm not saying that all of you that live in cities do not have the faintest clue what you are talking about, when it comes to eco-conscious matters pertaining to business. Sure you do have insights, but this one model fits all mentality only serves to exclude, and, as pointed out above, dilutes the very real issues amongst a massive scattering of posts, provided by the majority that live in towns and cities. People with a more eco conscious way of life should have their own part of the forum, to freely discuss matters upon which, they are highly passionate about. We're tired of being sidelined, cast aside, told our opinions do not really matter. Everything coming down to quotas and statistics of pen pushers in concrete towers.
If this community wants to be socially inclusive to all forms of business, then it needs to adopt a position that isn't so narrowminded, but rather provides a broader spectrum for specialised discussions.
Feel free to discuss.
I'm going to bed for three hours. Will read the rants when I wake up.
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Eco2You
I didn't see your post before about ethics.
This is going to be a sweeping generalisation, so don't take it personally.
Wherever there is money there is fraud, so your right.
But, a lot of eco "busineses" are not even that, community co-operatives, Non profits, and the majority support a broad range of things that "traditional business" has ignored, that is until it recently became fashionable...
All of a sudden all of the power companies are telling us how green they are, the banks, involved with Arms companies, and funding de-forestation projects pretending they care.
You are right, it's not for me to take a moral high ground, or state there is one, but to give a small example, some businesses go on one thing alone, and at any cost.
Profit, and if that means people losing their homes, children working 17 hour days, they don't care. They don't get to see it
As I mentioned I was wrong to say they are more ethical, I have no solid proof of that, but I do have a very good idea how a lot of businesses have operated.
Recently another 5 pence was added to farmers milk quota income, great, so the supermarkets are really supporting the local small producer..... Just another £1 per pint and the farmers may be able to get off subsidy's.
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I have just voted yes. I think as someone mentioned already a Green section might be more appropriate.
There are many times when I have wanted to recycle something (like CDs for example) or find out where to source biodegradeable items (plantpots) and not known where to go or whom to ask. Its not on my mind every day but it does keep popping up. I think it would be very useful to have an area where such things can be discussed and information shared - its not controversial and it could be really useful.
On a separate note, my next program is to be 'The Walkers Almanac' - a guide for wild food foragers. I have spent the last 2 years with my head close to the ground looking for mushrooms/wild flowers/fruit, etc. I live in a relatively unspoilt area (Lower Wharfedale onthe edge of the Yorkshire Dales) that to a passerby would seem to be a healthy green valley. I can tell you that as soon as you look into these things you find out that many, many species of flowers/shrubs/trees/birds/insects/mushrooms whatever are in very serious decline - with just the odd 'success' story when a handful of some species is reintroduced. Its very scary - its not 'devastation' in terms of a hurricane, its much more low key but apparently never ending. So to me every thing that we can do to halt this relentless decline is important.
There are many times when I have wanted to recycle something (like CDs for example) or find out where to source biodegradeable items (plantpots) and not known where to go or whom to ask. Its not on my mind every day but it does keep popping up. I think it would be very useful to have an area where such things can be discussed and information shared - its not controversial and it could be really useful.
On a separate note, my next program is to be 'The Walkers Almanac' - a guide for wild food foragers. I have spent the last 2 years with my head close to the ground looking for mushrooms/wild flowers/fruit, etc. I live in a relatively unspoilt area (Lower Wharfedale onthe edge of the Yorkshire Dales) that to a passerby would seem to be a healthy green valley. I can tell you that as soon as you look into these things you find out that many, many species of flowers/shrubs/trees/birds/insects/mushrooms whatever are in very serious decline - with just the odd 'success' story when a handful of some species is reintroduced. Its very scary - its not 'devastation' in terms of a hurricane, its much more low key but apparently never ending. So to me every thing that we can do to halt this relentless decline is important.
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maruby
Erm, just popping up to join the thread to say a sub-forum would be great - heck even a "sticky thread" would do!
For me the thread is not about reusing jiffy bags but more about managing your ethical business. We face particular challenges and it's hard to get it right and even harder to find others doing it too so you can share advice.
At the moment I am plugged into other ethical business networks and its a shame that my favourite bizz forum doesn't have somewhere I can go to get a quick answer/advice before my question is lost in the general melee of an active forum.
At the moment I have a few practical concerns:
I need to get some advice about packaging (which I've asked for before and didn't get any leads)
I need fairtrade/recycled gift wrap wholesale
I need organic cotton drawstring bags which aren't preferably going to take 2 months to arrive....
On a more strategic level I'd like to know how other similar businesses have managed growth and secured funding? (Because there are only as far as I know two ethical bank options available)
Other stuff I'd like to contribute are my information contacts and networking groups - a post would get lost almost immediately as the general forum is so busy giving limited benefit to people starting up.
Why not just give us a sub forum/thread and if it doesn't get used then those that answered no would be proved right.
PS If anyone can help me out with my current supplier issues that would be great
For me the thread is not about reusing jiffy bags but more about managing your ethical business. We face particular challenges and it's hard to get it right and even harder to find others doing it too so you can share advice.
At the moment I am plugged into other ethical business networks and its a shame that my favourite bizz forum doesn't have somewhere I can go to get a quick answer/advice before my question is lost in the general melee of an active forum.
At the moment I have a few practical concerns:
I need to get some advice about packaging (which I've asked for before and didn't get any leads)
I need fairtrade/recycled gift wrap wholesale
I need organic cotton drawstring bags which aren't preferably going to take 2 months to arrive....
On a more strategic level I'd like to know how other similar businesses have managed growth and secured funding? (Because there are only as far as I know two ethical bank options available)
Other stuff I'd like to contribute are my information contacts and networking groups - a post would get lost almost immediately as the general forum is so busy giving limited benefit to people starting up.
Why not just give us a sub forum/thread and if it doesn't get used then those that answered no would be proved right.
PS If anyone can help me out with my current supplier issues that would be great
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I voted no on the basis that it seems a little odd to classify a business as 'Eco'. What are the entry criteria for this, for example what about a 'normal' business which does thing in an eco-friendly way?
The designation seems to be an artificial construct - someone may supply consultancy services and drive Hybrids, is that an Eco-business (the product is expertise so there's no resource wastage there). Or does it have to be a 'natural' product to classify?
The term is too faddy. Almost all businesses are (very) slowly turning more 'Eco' out of necessaity - in a lot of cases if they don't they'll lose customers, which means its a normal part of business and should be in the normal forum.
(As an aside, for environmentalists, surely having eco-issues as part of normal business is better than having it as a separate issue - eveyone needs to be brought along, not see it as a separate issue).
Just my thoughts.
The designation seems to be an artificial construct - someone may supply consultancy services and drive Hybrids, is that an Eco-business (the product is expertise so there's no resource wastage there). Or does it have to be a 'natural' product to classify?
The term is too faddy. Almost all businesses are (very) slowly turning more 'Eco' out of necessaity - in a lot of cases if they don't they'll lose customers, which means its a normal part of business and should be in the normal forum.
(As an aside, for environmentalists, surely having eco-issues as part of normal business is better than having it as a separate issue - eveyone needs to be brought along, not see it as a separate issue).
Just my thoughts.
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RayB
I agree - with hindsight, as the debate has progressed, it seems far more appropriate to have a "green area" for all forum members - not just those involved in selling green products.
E.g - an account mught be interested in using recycled ink cartridges
This is preciscely why I wanted to start the debate
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