Client Intrusion in Website Design

[bdw]

OK, that'll be fine then.

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[marble_pars]

I think this sums it all up pretty well

Steve

That has to be one of the funniest things I've read! But all of it is so true.

A client once asked for a bright pink background to make the site stand out more, baring in mind the site was for a 16th Century restaurant.

I always come up with some excuse and convince them its a bad idea.

But more frustrating are the clients that never reply to emails, answer calls, provide feedback, provide content or just seem to disappear for 3 months then ask for a hundred changes.

 

[Nuno]

There hundreds of people on the net who have copied my terms and are using them. They are amongst the most detailed around.

I'n presuming that your T&Cs (I haven't looked, sorry), were written with Scottish law in mind which as we know is different from English law.

Are the two sorts of law so similar that the same T&Cs cover the legal requirements in both countries?
Or are a lot of the people stealing them being a bit daft?

 

[bdw]

It's a case of WYSIWYG!

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[Banned]

It's a case of WYSIWYG!

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Interesting that you are all for T&C's and compliance, yet your very own website doesn't comply with law.

Pot, Kettle?

Also you are not doing your clients a favour by taking their business, very much the other way round. Just the same as you can shop where you like for exactly what you want, not some compromise.

 

[bdw]

Help, I am being stalked!

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[iArtist]

Help, I am being stalked!

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No..you said your T&C's were so good people wanted to copy them, the result being people popped to your site to see how 'good' they were. Shame they're not even visible

 

[bdw]

Interesting that you are all for T&C's and compliance

Am I? :|

OK then.

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[bdw]

Shame they're not even visible

All you have to do is ask.

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[iArtist]

All you have to do is ask.

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Who can be bothered though?

 

[bdw]

Who can be bothered though?

You? Didn't you go looking for them? :|

(Can we get back on topic please?)

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[iArtist]

You? Didn't you go looking for them? :|

.

I can be bothered to look at a website where I expect to find them, but I can't be bothered to send you an email asking to see them and 'wait' for however many hours, days to receive a copy.

 

[Posilan]

All you have to do is ask.

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Why do people have to request them via email? I don't think I've ever seen that before when a business has a website.

Surely it's a pain for you to have to deal with the request emails - after all your own privacy policy restricts you from using the email address provided for anything else other than just supplying the T&C's...

Steve

 

[bdw]

Surely it's a pain for you to have to deal with the request emails

Not at all. No one ever asks. They don't have to. All my prospective clients get sent a personal copy with their quote. The only ones who do ask are web designers who want to use them themselves.

I took my T and Cs off when someone pointed out to me that hundreds of people worldwide had copied them. It took me man y hours to chase them up for this. A quick check just now shows that this is still happening to a lesser extent.

As i said before this is not about my T and Cs but I am quite happy with them. If you like I can PM you the details to prove what I am saying about infringement Posilan?

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[Posilan]

Not at all. No one ever asks. They don't have to. All my prospective clients get sent a personal copy with their quote. The only ones who do ask are web designers who want to use them themselves.

I took my T and Cs off when someone pointed out to me that hundreds of people worldwide had copied them. It took me man y hours to chase them up for this. A quick check just now shows that this is still happening to a lesser extent.

As i said before this is not about my T and Cs but I am quite happy with them. If you like I can PM you the details to prove what I am saying about infringement Posilan?

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No, it's not necessary - it wasn't a criticism, I was just curious as to why you did it that way

Steve

 

[estwig]

A big part of the problem with clients intruding into website design, is because an awful lot of the self appointed gurus, aficionados and practitioners of website design. Wouldn't know a good design if it slapped them round the face with a 'wet kipper'!

This may cause the client, out of a need to preserve some kind of dignity to their online presence, to attempt to steer the hapless website designer in the right direction.

 

[bdw]

A big part of the problem with clients intruding into website design, is because an awful lot of the self appointed gurus, aficionados and practitioners of website design. Wouldn't know a good design if it slapped them round the face with a 'wet kipper'!

Oh yes, you are so right.

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[Banned]

So who would employ a web designer who's own website doesn't comply with the law, and shows no T&C's. Does this not shout amateurishness, teenage lad back bedroom company to 90% of the population?

Maybe that's reason your clients are a tad worried about the end design and keeping on top of you?

Now before you shout troll (which often happens if someone points out facts followed by an opinion that hits home a bit to hard), that is a genuine question proceeded by the facts to back up the comment

 

[bdw]

Wish I was a teenage lad again. Thanks for the compliment!

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[Banned]

Wish I was a teenage lad again. Thanks for the compliment!

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No problem, glad you took it as a compliment.

If that is your best answer to the problems your business has (and they are problems however you choose to look at them) then your silence speaks volumes .

Perhaps you could explain the reasons you wouldn't comply with the law. You obviously expect everyone you deal with on a daily basis to, including Google?

I genuinely find it a strange contradiction.

 

[bdw]

Are you accusing me of breaking the law?

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[Banned]

Are you accusing me of breaking the law?

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Not accusing, pointing out a fact.

I sure you are well aware that all websites providing goods or services require their geographical address on their website.

You website apparently doesn't, if it is there I apologise.

 

[bdw]

Perhaps you can show us this law then?

Then perhaps you can show us your website so we call try to pick a few holes in it too - even though it has nothing at all to do with the topic.

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[S-Marketing]

Perhaps you can show us this law then?

Then perhaps you can show us your website so we call try to pick a few holes in it too - even though it has nothing at all to do with the topic.

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I thought banned was being a bit of a troll, and thought that his line of posting had no relevance to the thread then thought actually, anything on your own site that puts any doubt in your clients mind, could actually lead them to question any decisions you make about their site. I think that is where he is coming from (or maybe he just doesnt like you)

 

[Banned]

That's exactly where I'm coming from. BDW wants to know why his clients are "on his back", I'm offering up some possible reasons. Can't say if I like the chap or not from a number of posts on a website, it's difficult to judge a persons "real" character from a forum.

BDW some links that I hope help I won't be offering up my websites, because as you say it's not relevant to the thread.

http://www.website-law.co.uk/blog/internet-law/website-legal-information-basic-requirements/

http://thedistance.co.uk/journal/2011-07/legal-requirements-of-a-uk-ecommerce-website

 

[bdw]

I thought banned was being a bit of a troll

Now where on earth did you get that idea?

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[bdw]

BDW wants to know why his clients are "on his back"

Do I? I don't think so. :|

What I do want to know is your website address, not your home address, just your website address.

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[Banned]

Now where on earth did you get that idea?


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You start a thread asking why clients don't just let you get on with it. I offer you a couple of good reasons as to maybe why - T&C's and address being absent - one of which is a legal requirement, the other expected by most.

You may find if you address these issues the problem may diminish. But no, because you can't admit an error you start shouting troll.

 

[Banned]

Do I? I don't think so. :|

What I do want to know is your website address, not your home address, just your website address.

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Grief man, read your opening post again and thread title.

 

[Esk247]

Grief man, read your opening post again and thread title.

You know you're going to end up bashing your head against a wall..don't you?

 

[Banned]

You know you're going to end up bashing your head against a wall..don't you?

Why would I? He asked:-

Do any of you web designers have problems with clients insisting on leading the design process?

And I gave a couple of reasons as to what the problem may be. The address issue I presume he will be grateful for the heads up on. Wouldn't he?

Of course if he just keeps on about my websites rather than addressing this thread and his problems then he's a lost cause and I'll move on

 

[bdw]

Of course if he just keeps on about my websites

Errrrm, what are you doing and who started it? The discussion is not about websites. It is about clients.

rather addressing his thread and problems then he's a lost cause and I'll move on

Hopefully you will and we can get back on topic.

To the others who contributed to the thread, thank you and sorry for the distraction. These guys seem to be in my fan club or something. I think I'll post something else to see what they have to say about that.

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[Deleted member 61074]

To a certain extent design is a personal decision, a web designer will always have preconceived ideas as to how a site should look and so will the client. At the end of the day the client is paying the bill and should be accommodated either by doing his wishes or diplomatically explaining why his idea is bad with a view to a change of heart

For websites content is king - thus you could argue that if the visitor is able to quickly find what they are looking for then the design doesn't matter. Flashing gifs excepted! (£500 budget sites)

Also in the £500 budget range I'd be inclined to do what the customer wants - after having talked over why it's going to be bad and followed up with email.

I'd also make sure you resend the quote including the agreed design etc to be signed so any future changes when the client realises his folly become chargeable.

Ultimately it is your decision you should refuse the job if you don't want to compromise your reputation

 

[bdw]

I'd also make sure you resend the quote including the agreed design etc to be signed so any future changes when the client realises his folly become chargeable.

Dunerider my T and Cs are actually very clear. I require a deposit before starting and all my clients are told they should not pay this deposit unless they agree to the terms. My policy on design changes is also clearly explained. At this level we offer one concept. If it is not acceptable we change it according to the client's stated requirements.

The problem arises when the job is almost complete and clients come back asking for things that are not in their best interests either from a design or an SEO point of view.

Many of my clients are small businesses and start ups. I genuinely want them to do well and when they ask for something that could limit their prospects I do my best to try to explain this to them. Unfortunately sometimes I cannot get the message through to them.

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[iArtist]

Many of my clients are small businesses and start ups. I genuinely want them to do well and when they ask for something that could limit their prospects I do my best to try to explain this to them. Unfortunately sometimes I cannot get the message through to them.

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I think you just need to accept this is one of the joys of selling to the public. I have had this experience on and off for 26yrs in a variety of industries. It won't change because people don't.

You can limit the level of changes with your terms and sometimes...if they're beyond the pale, you have to sometimes cut them loose altogether because it's not cost effective keeping them onboard.

Or..you can accommodate their every whim the choice is yours....

 

[Banned]

Errrrm, what are you doing and who started it? The discussion is not about websites. It is about clients.

Hopefully you will and we can get back on topic.

To the others who contributed to the thread, thank you and sorry for the distraction. These guys seem to be in my fan club or something. I think I'll post something else to see what they have to say about that.

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Sorry you couldn't see the relevance and seemingly miss the points as to why your clients don't just let you get on with it.

Consider this though, your website is you shop window and fist impression. If you getting clients by doing budget websites then I would imagine, with the errors on your own site, they will be keen to lead the way and only require your services for the "donkey" work. If on the other hand your website was legal and everything was as "expected", by the majority, then I would presume more of your clients would have more faith in your end results and leave you be.

After all, if you were buying a tv on the internet would it be from the likes of Amazon were everything is as it should be, or dodge pot tv's with no T&C's, return address details etc? If you did buy from dodge pot tv's (because it was cheaper for example) would you not be chasing, checking and double checking the progress the whole way through until the item was delivered?

 

[estwig]

I undertake design work for a living, all be it house extensions and loft conversions, the process is similar to a website design.

I like a lot of people have preconceived ideas of what makes a good design, the main design issues for my line of work are all about the layout of space, what rooms? How many rooms? Location of doors? bathrooms? windows etc?

Sometimes a client will have what to me initially sound like crazy ideas, after asking them to explain themselves and me LISTENING to them. I find that they have valid ideas. Their circumstances and needs are individual and I shouldn't impose my ideas on them. This process of letting go of my preconceptions and embracing the clients ideas, takes quite a considerable effort of concentration on my part. It is not easy to admit to yourself you may be wrong and the client may be right. Before you can even begin to admit you may be wrong, you have to be willing to LISTEN to the clients ideas.

 

[FreelanceSoftwareDeveloper]

So who would employ a web designer who's own website doesn't comply with the law, and shows no T&C's. Does this not shout amateurishness, teenage lad back bedroom company to 90% of the population?

Same with contact details, after all:

Ethical Web Designers here in the UK have no reason to hide their contact details from you

Taken from bdw's site, with no apparent contact details?

 

[iArtist]

Sorry you couldn't see the relevance and seemingly miss the points as to why your clients don't just let you get on with it.

Consider this though, your website is you shop window and fist impression. If you getting clients by doing budget websites then I would imagine, with the errors on your own site, they will be keen to lead the way and only require your services for the "donkey" work. If on the other hand your website was legal and everything was as "expected", by the majority, then I would presume more of your clients would have more faith in your end results and leave you be.

After all, if you were buying a tv on the internet would it be from the likes of Amazon were everything is as it should be, or dodge pot tv's with no T&C's, return address details etc? If you did buy from dodge pot tv's (because it was cheaper for example) would you not be chasing and checking the process the whole way through until the item was delivered?

There is some truth to this.

I was Manager and chief dispenser at an in-store Opticians when I was just 21 yrs old. The result was clients would sometimes come in, ignore me and talk over my head to my Saturday boy (he was 48yrs old). They did this because with my youthful appearance I didn't look as if I knew the job. I would wait patiently until my 'Sat boy' referred them right back to me. It was I have to say...not a problem often though and one I understood.

 

[SillyJokes]

What I'm getting from this thread is that web designers think they are god's gift to the internet and that anyone foolish enough to have the money to pay for them deserves to be ridiculed

As a starting point I'd like a designer who totally understands my business and could show me that their designs have created profit for previous clients.

Then I'd be prepared to take their word for it that their design is totally perfect, and that none of my ideas is worth anything.

I'm just not seeing that because webdesigners can't possibly understand all the businesses they have to design for, therefore they should be open to suggestions from those who do know the market.