Client doesn't want website anymore - won't pay

[TheTangyWebDev]

Hi Folks,

I'm a small startup web designer - and I have got my first non-paying client.

Over the course of 18 months I was asked to do various small I/T jobs, and got paid same-day by this client.

Then my client (sole-trader) wanted a website built. Before the work started I provided a range of figures, and said the final cost will be between x & y depending on what you wanted.

Website was built ... lots of bespoke styling and functional SEO set up for the client, then they dropped the bombshell that they wanted the site totally re-done as they were still staying in the same business arena but would angle at a completely different business-type as they'd gotten a full time job.

The client said, please rebuild the website ... I said, that's fine, please pay me for the work done to date and I'll make the changes.

Then money excuses started to come in, sorry can't pay yet as a family matter has got in the way / sorry just paid for a holiday / sorry had a big car repair blah blah blah.

Then I wasted probably 10 hours responding to bogus 'complaints' about the work where the client made up a huge bunch of issues that I had to painstakingly respond to - all of them got countered as being falsehoods. Oh, and I got threaten with trading standards. I'd even included a bunch of extra sweeteners to show cooperation and to try and close out the non-payment issue, but no dice.

Then client then sent a cheque for 20% the originally quoted cost in "full and final settlement". I marked the cheque void and informed the client, and asked again to be paid in full.

In a nutshell - the client was very happy with the work and I'd done it to the agreed specification (all agreed by email) the issue came when the client got full-time employment and didn't want to pay for their website.

I have full documentation of the excuses, and the outlandish claims and it clearly paints a picture of someone desperately trying not to pay, it's borderline farcical.

At all times I was professional and courteous. The client is now refusing to communicate.

After getting a hint from a 3rd party, I found the sole trader and their partner have both got IVAs.

My T&C's are very clear, are bullet proof, got the BoE interest rate + late the fees. My invoices are also clear and include late-fee information.

The sum of money is small - only £400. I have learnt from this and no longer do cheap websites and insist on payment upfront.

Given that the client and the partner both have IVAs - what is the best way to proceed? I want to get paid for the work that I did and I am now also aware that the client should not have gone ahead with any work as effectively they have built up extra debt.

Many thanks for any advice!

 

[Alan]

As you don't want to write it off to experience, you need to send a final demand (letter before action) and then claim through the small claims court (money claim online).

 

[tony84]

On a side note, dont let this make you charge upfront. I would never pay for a website upfront as i have been ripped off by a web designer where i paid 65% upfront and never seen anything other than a mock up design... that could potentially lose you customers.

Ignore the IVA, they still owe you the money. If they cant pay it then you need to go through court and get a CCJ, you can then have that enforced and send a debt collector round - TV... or the car etc can be seized to pay the bill.

 

[Paul Norman]

My own view is that I would have banked the cheque and moved on. You MIGHT win a case, but you equally might end up with a won case and still no money. Focus on the next customer.

From time to time in business you get dropped on. It is frustrating, but it is equally just business. You will survive this - by the look of it they have already not done so.

This is not so much about what is just as what is pragmatic for you.

 

[Esk247]

The sum of money is small - only £400. I have learnt from this and no longer do cheap websites and insist on payment upfront.

Stick a claim in through a CCJ as mentioned by others above but don't stress yourself out over this as you're owed exactly the same amount someone owed me a few years ago and they never paid.

Don't insist on payment up front. Insist on a deposit and build a brief with the customer. Get the brief signed off and that will agree the fixed cost.

That last bit is something we've just introduced as we were being messed about by countless customers wanting on going alterations to things, they hadn't even paid us but expected us to produce things to a deadline and that deadline would get forever shorter before they started demanding that we were delaying them and they wouldn't pay....etc etc..you get the idea.

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

As you don't want to write it off to experience, you need to send a final demand (letter before action) and then claim through the small claims court (money claim online).

Opps - I almost missed that - thank you I found a link on here that'll send a final demand on my behalf for a few pounds - I've seen Thomas Higgins and Atradius mentioned on the forums.

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

On a side note, dont let this make you charge upfront. I would never pay for a website upfront as i have been ripped off by a web designer where i paid 65% upfront and never seen anything other than a mock up design... that could potentially lose you customers.

Ignore the IVA, they still owe you the money. If they cant pay it then you need to go through court and get a CCJ, you can then have that enforced and send a debt collector round - TV... or the car etc can be seized to pay the bill.

You are right I probably need to find a balance on cash up front. My pre-sales probably needs cutting down and that can take ~4 hours to write up a proposal and get a firm cost ... I need to work out how to weed out the tyre-kickers before engaging in mockups.

Had a huge comedy moment last month, got everything agreed with potential client for a new website, the proposal said from the outset, payment in advance. Got to the final iteration, asked client to pay, they said, can it be paid monthly? Right, so build a website, give it to them, and then they pay me monthly? That got a firm 'no' from me ... and they went off to an indian developer ... and their 'new' website in the style of what was around in 1995 .

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

My own view is that I would have banked the cheque and moved on. You MIGHT win a case, but you equally might end up with a won case and still no money. Focus on the next customer.

From time to time in business you get dropped on. It is frustrating, but it is equally just business. You will survive this - by the look of it they have already not done so.

This is not so much about what is just as what is pragmatic for you.

Yes we wondered about taking that approach and banking the cheque ... my concern was they'd then want all the work that'd been done to date ...

Have had this happen twice before, once with a National Charity (the person that agreed to the website turned out not to be the decision maker) and another sole trader and we decided that for the third time, we'd make sure all the documentation was in place and we'd get our money

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

Don't insist on payment up front. Insist on a deposit and build a brief with the customer. Get the brief signed off and that will agree the fixed cost.

That last bit is something we've just introduced as we were being messed about by countless customers wanting on going alterations to things, they hadn't even paid us but expected us to produce things to a deadline and that deadline would get forever shorter before they started demanding that we were delaying them and they wouldn't pay....etc etc..you get the idea.

As part of pre-sales, do you request a deposit up front? I've introduced a pre-sales fee that is refunded if a client goes ahead with a site, though I probably need to work on the wording as it's quite aggressive. What I can't do is provide free education to a client and then find out they don't have the money in the first place

My pre-sales document is 12 pages long, and probably introduces a bunch of things that the client may not have thought of or doesn't understand.

LOL ... yes my non-payer also included in their list of complaints that they were losing business because their website wasn't complete

 

[tony84]

You are right I probably need to find a balance on cash up front. My pre-sales probably needs cutting down and that can take ~4 hours to write up a proposal and get a firm cost ... I need to work out how to weed out the tyre-kickers before engaging in mockups.

Had a huge comedy moment last month, got everything agreed with potential client for a new website, the proposal said from the outset, payment in advance. Got to the final iteration, asked client to pay, they said, can it be paid monthly? Right, so build a website, give it to them, and then they pay me monthly? That got a firm 'no' from me ... and they went off to an indian developer ... and their 'new' website in the style of what was around in 1995 .

Retro is back!

My contract with clients says i charge a fee upon application (after we have an agreement in principle). If the client wants to pay upon completion and im happy to do it - i can and do defer the payment... there is nothing to say your contract cant be negotiated and amended, but its always good to have your basic terms set out.

You just need to be happy you are at the very least covering your initial costs. You could have offered the bloke to pay monthly from here on in, although i suspect based on what you have said they would have declined.

 

[thelegalstop]

Opps - I almost missed that - thank you I found a link on here that'll send a final demand on my behalf for a few pounds - I've seen Thomas Higgins and Atradius mentioned on the forums.

If you still need the Letter Before Action - we have it for free
Letter before action template

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

We decided to go the 'official' route and a Late Payment Demand via Thomas Higgins.

This has been ignored so we've applied to take the matter to court also via TH.

No doubt that'll be ignored as well.

During the interviening period we've written up all the correspondence, and put together a summary document for each event - this took my partner 5 hours to write it up and consolidate ... I can see why people don't bother with legal action.

 

[Bobadob]

If you are the web developer, then maybe you have control over the domain name and what is on there now. So you can change his website to whatever you want!
Obviously, you cant do this as it is probably not legal, so you must play by the rules and spend money going through the small claims court and then you will get paid out £5 per week for 150 years and a load of hassle.

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

If you are the web developer, then maybe you have control over the domain name and what is on there now. So you can change his website to whatever you want!
Obviously, you cant do this as it is probably not legal, so you must play by the rules and spend money going through the small claims court and then you will get paid out £5 per week for 150 years and a load of hassle.

The client was 100% happy till they didn't want the website any longer. It's turned off - as part of my T&C's they don't get it till they've paid.

 

[thelegalstop]

Unfortunately situations like these happen all the time! It is ideal to tap into freelancer forums since these people have experiences right up your alley and will know exactly how to address this issue. If you haven't gotten things squared away you can contact our legal team.

 

[graeme1976]

In future Should look to stipulate and a payment/release schedule

Sign off of design - £100
Sign off of x and y functionality - £100
Sign off of remaining functionality
Sign off of test phase
Etc
Etc

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

In future Should look to stipulate and a payment/release schedule

Sign off of design - £100
Sign off of x and y functionality - £100
Sign off of remaining functionality
Sign off of test phase
Etc
Etc

I've gone 100% up-front since this problem, my work is good and I am fortunate to be in a position to turn away work I don't want to do.

Will probably move back to a payment/release schedule in the future though, as things to change - thanks!

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

Update - the 'client' despite delaying things for 2 weeks with the acknowledgement of service (at which point they said they'd deny *EVERYTHING) has failed to provide a defence and according to the solicitor Judgement and Execution has been issued. A bailiffs first report is due.

I have no idea what any of this means ... though it sounds promising.

 

[Alan]

I don't blame you.

We started off asking nothing up front. But realised if people pay nothing they have no commitment either, so we started taking small up front payments, however we also discovered that people are prepared to walk away from commitments even losing a small deposit.

We are now up to 50% up front with a signed direct debit form for the follow up payments. Of course they can 'pull' the direct debit, but at least they would have already made a serious commitment to the project.

The shame is it is the few untrustworthy / unethical ones that ruin it for the majority of genuine ones.

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

Seems the client did file a defence.

I've just read the defence - and it's a pack of lies (with a few new ones thrown in for good measure) and doesn't matching the emails or any discussions we've had.

They don't match the documentation I've put together - which includes a summary of all events, and backup of all the details.

Not sure what to do next.

 

[Newchodge]

The case will be listed for a hearing, after some administration stuff about which type of court it should go to etc. You will need to pay another fee.

Eventually, at a hearing, the judge will hear verbal evidence, consider written evidence and decide who is believed.

Hang on in there!

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

Thanks Newchodge - I've used a debt recovery solicitor, they have said the case is too complex for them and needs to go to a specialist

 

[Newchodge]

You must be joking!

While this is no longer debt recovery, but is taking a claim to court, it is really something you can do yourself. Unless by a specialist they mean someone with experience of the small claims court?

 

[beasty]

AH SPECIALIST! FOR 400GBP

what the ****.com

Did your man get his degree from the back of Kellogs packets?

You just fill the forms in yourself, there are guidance notes, there is nothing to it!

oh yes, if you are IN DEMAND, charge more than 400 quid for a website ! as you should not be turning away work you should be pricing yourself correctly so you have enough work and get paid properly for it

400 quid and two solicitors.. jees

 

[arcon5]

Have you used Thomas Higgins to also submit your claim? If so you've paid extra unnecessary fees unrecoverable against the debtor. Should have used moneyclaim.gov.

 

[Sports Trophy Co]

All too common, businesses have invested thousands into websites and new businesses want the same thing and better at a fraction of the competition. It's not going to happen.

If someone buys a big city centre shop they are going to do alot more business than a village corner shop.

You should have a clear view from the client the investment capital and time scales. If you have neither then walk away.

 

[TheTangyWebDev]

acron5 - yes I did. They upheld their end of the bargain, but I should have gone to moneyclaim.gov.

After seeing the defence that was filed - which was full of lies ... I saw the absurdity of it all.

Probably spent more time on the defence than making the site - and it's impacted my ability to create other sites and respond to clients. And stress.

I've taken away something very important - that is the experience - and is potentially a lifesaver for the future.

As a result I've made changes, to my requirements documentation, requiring payment up front, and a bunch of other things.

I have agreed for a payment that just about covers the solicitors fees. I will resell the custom site design to someone else, and make my money there.

Lessons learned. Move on. And hope the cheque doesn't bounce.

My apologies if this is defeatist - for me it is the right thing to do and to close the chapter and move on.

Thank you to everyone that has provided advice and comment - very much appreciated.

 

[tony84]

I've taken away something very important - that is the experience - and is potentially a lifesaver for the future.

That one thing you cant put a price on. You live to fight another day.

If its taught you to change the way you do business for the better then its not necessarily a bad thing, its just an expensive lesson.

Personally im still of the opinion that it should be phased payments as i have been ripped off by a web designer where i paid upfront. It would stop me doing business with someone who charged upfront but its your business and its what works for you.

 

[Newchodge]

That one thing you cant put a price on. You live to fight another day.

If its taught you to change the way you do business for the better then its not necessarily a bad thing, its just an expensive lesson.

Personally im still of the opinion that it should be phased payments as i have been ripped off by a web designer where i paid upfront. It would stop me doing business with someone who charged upfront but its your business and its what works for you.

It's strange, isn't it, how we see paying for things differently in different settings.

In a shop no-one thinks it strange to pay up front, although you immediately receive the goods.

I have just ordered some printer paper from a website, no problem paying upfront, although I won't receive the product for a few days.

If I ask for something to be made for me, making it useless to the supplier if I don't pay, I have no trouble paying upfront, eg business cards.

If I want something that will take a while to produce, I object too paying more than staged payments, eg website, building work.

Funny old world

 

[zigojacko]

It's strange, isn't it, how we see paying for things differently in different settings.

In a shop no-one thinks it strange to pay up front, although you immediately receive the goods.

I have just ordered some printer paper from a website, no problem paying upfront, although I won't receive the product for a few days.

If I ask for something to be made for me, making it useless to the supplier if I don't pay, I have no trouble paying upfront, eg business cards.

If I want something that will take a while to produce, I object too paying more than staged payments, eg website, building work.

Funny old world

I end up explaining similar scenario's frequently when trying to get through to clients that expect us to work for nothing for a month and then pay when the work has been delivered.

I'd love to see them walk into a garage and try and pull that one off with the mechanics.

Another bug bearer of mine is "we only deal with all our invoices at the end of the month" - this, we're only told when we actually phone them chasing which comes after the 5th ignored late payment email reminder. If we didn't pay any of our bills on time using this as a reason, we'd be told to STFU...

 

[tony84]

I think it depends on how much were talking.

If i was paying £20 for some business cards and they ran off with my money i would be annoyed but i would get over it. If we are talking £200 then i would start to look at ways to get it back. If it were £2,000 then i would be knocking on the door.

For the record, i havnt said pay at the end as i understand there is risk both ends. Staged payments at agreed points for bigger jobs is the way i think is best for both parties.

But if you compare it to employment, you get paid in arrears and if you have employees im sure theyre paid in arrears - so whats the difference? The same goes for my gas bill, i get charged after i have used it not before (just playing devils advocate here).

 

[arcon5]

.

I'd love to see them walk into a garage and try and pull that one off with the mechanics.

Not sure what mechanics you go to but I've never been to a garage that doesn't take payment when you collect the car, as opposed to before they do the work. Although I suppose the difference being they have the car in lien of the debt, website much more personal, much less valuable for resale.

Personally I wouldn't pay for a website upfront. Not the whole payment anyway.

 

[Adam.Vause]

It's a difficult one. I'm going through the dispute process at the moment. This particular client has been a good payer always paid on time. They also have established credit terms (30 days) Just finished their ecommerce website for them going the extra mile to make sure they are 100% happy. I sent the invoice and they come back with a list of things that relate to SEO which they agreed they didn't want to go ahead with at this present time. They are now ignoring my phone calls and emails despite my attempts of resolution. To be honest i think they don't want to pay due to lack of sales. This isn't our problem really as I already advised them that its a tough market to be in.... I should of seen it coming but reading all your comments has put me in good steed for the litigation process.

As for paying for the website upfront i think i wouldn't pay either too much risk. I would defiantly consider paying an upfront payment though. In my case they client had established a good record of payment. Gutted

 

[helen0722]

The client was 100% happy till they didn't want the website any longer. It's turned off - as part of my T&C's they don't get it till they've paid.

As the web designer you could take their website off line until they pay you.

 

[helen0722]

The client was 100% happy till they didn't want the website any longer. It's turned off - as part of my T&C's they don't get it till they've paid.

That's the way to go, I design websites also if a client don't pay their website come off the internet.

 

[That Bates Girl]

I think sometimes the problem is that the client feels they are paying for a product (the website) rather than for a service (someone to build a website for them).

It makes sense that you shouldn't have to pay for a product you don't want, and don't yet have yet - that's their perspective.

Of course it makes no sense that you should't pay for a service you've been using just because you've decided that you don't want the 'result' of that service any more. That'd be like refusing to pay the cleaning company that got your house all clean and tidy for Christmas, on the basis that your mother-in-law wasn't coming to stay any more, so it didn't matter if it was a bit of a tip.

But we do tend to packages our services up as products, to make them easier to sell - so maybe we shouldn't be so surprised when people expect the same sort of "consumer rights" that they have when buying a TV or a dishwasher.

Lyds